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My ailerons wont go down

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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:46 am Post subject: My ailerons wont go down

I am rigging everything prior to closing

 I made some templates 23.5 up and 20 down for use on the underside mindful or buds strictures to measure at the hinge

 I have followed the procedure on the book (i think).

 	  Quote: 	
		  1. Check that the short aileron link-rod is adjusted such that when the bellcrank W13 is against itsÂ stop, the aileron has moved 23.5Âº up.

 

2. With the aileron at neutral, adjust the length of the lateral push-rod so that the quick-connectÂ bellcrank W16 is at 90Âº to a line between both spar bushes.

 

3. Adjust the tie-rod between both cranks CS08 so that both control columns are parallel.



 4. Adjust the short outer push-rods between the CS08â€™s and the CS15 bellcranks so that the latter areÂ vertical when the control columns are vertical.



 When the wings are rigged the aileron movement should be 23.5Âº up and 20Âº down with full lateralÂ control column movement and both ailerons should be in their neutral positions together when the

 

control columns are vertical.



	
 



My ailerons go up the required 23.5 deg against both stops but they don't go down the required 20 deg...not even close I would guess that they are about 15-17 down

 



I have taken it to bits and put it together fiddled around but Im stumped. Â What I am I doing wrong?

 



Might it be that the control columns should not be parallell in this case due to variation in the build....Â 

 



thanks



 

Will

 



William Daniell



LONGPORT

+57 310 295 0744

 

  [quote][b]

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:33 am Post subject: My ailerons wont go down

William, I don't know the answer, but if you haven't got 

one I would strongly advise getting or borrowing a Smart 

Tool so that you can easily and very accurately measure 

angles. It does occur to me to wonder whether you are 

measuring your up and down angles off the same surface 

(i.e. Are you measuring the neutral angle of say the upper 

surface, then measuring the up and down angles of the 

upper surface, rather than the up angle of the upper 

surface and the down angle of the lower surface) Regards, 

David Joyce, G-XSDJ



On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 11:44:48 -0500

  William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I am rigging everything prior to closing

 

 I made some templates 23.5 up and 20 down for use on the 

underside mindful

 or buds strictures to measure at the hinge

 

 I have followed the procedure on the book (i think).

 

 *1. Check that the short aileron link-rod is adjusted 

such that when the

 bellcrank W13 is against its **stop, the aileron has 

moved 23.5Âº up.*

 *2. With the aileron at neutral, adjust the length of 

the lateral push-rod

 so that the quick-connect **bellcrank W16 is at 90Âº to a 

line between both

 spar bushes.*

 *3. Adjust the tie-rod between both cranks CS08 so that 

both control

 columns are parallel.*

 *4. Adjust the short outer push-rods between the CS08â€™s 

and the CS15

 bellcranks so that the latter are **vertical when the 

control columns are

 vertical.*

 *When the wings are rigged the aileron movement should 

be 23.5Âº up and 20Âº

 down with full lateral **control column movement and 

both ailerons should

 be in their neutral positions together when the*

 *control columns are vertical.*

 

 

 My ailerons go up the required 23.5 deg against both 

stops but they don't

 go down the required 20 deg...not even close I would 

guess that they are

 about 15-17 down

 

 I have taken it to bits and put it together fiddled 

around but Im stumped.

 What I am I doing wrong?

 

 Might it be that the control columns should not be 

parallell in this case

 due to variation in the build....

 

 thanks

 

 Will

 

 

 William Daniell

 LONGPORT

 +57 310 295 0744

JonathanMilbank

Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 388
Location: Aberdeen area

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:22 am Post subject: Re: My ailerons wont go down

You're quite sure that the aileron mass balances aren't touching the wing upper surfaces inside the recesses? I have the old foam-filled wings and maybe such a phenomenon isn't likely with the newer factory-made wings.



I sure struggled with shaving bits of lead and adjusting the aileron mass balance arm attachments until I could barely reach the down limit.



Then of course there's the problem which could arise if the aileron quick connector pivots in the fuselage and on the spars don't align.



I ended the long struggle to rig the ailerons correctly with only just getting sufficient up and down deflection, but with a tiny amount of reflex when both ailerons are ostensibly in the neutral position.

wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:52 am Post subject: My ailerons wont go down

Thanks...all good suggestions however sadly its not mass balance arms I checked by shining a light through the mass balance boxes....not even close to the skin

 Will On 24 Jun 2014 13:30, "jonathanmilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)> wrote:[quote] --> Europa-List message posted by: "jonathanmilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)>

 

 You're quite sure that the aileron mass balances aren't touching the wing upper surfaces inside the recesses? I have the old foam-filled wings and maybe such a phenomenon isn't likely with the newer factory-made wings.

  

 I sure struggled with shaving bits of lead and adjusting the aileron mass balance arm attachments until I could barely reach the down limit.

 

 Then of course there's the problem which could arise if the aileron quick connector pivots in the fuselage and on the spars don't align.

 

 I ended the long struggle to rig the ailerons correctly with only just getting sufficient up and down deflection, but with a tiny amount of reflex when both ailerons are ostensibly in the neutral position.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425376#425376

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 ===========

 MS -

 k">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 e -

  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

Richard Wheelwright

Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Posts: 111
Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire, UK

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:27 am Post subject: My ailerons wont go down

Could it be the stop in the opposite wing stoping it going down far enough? It it is you must set the quick connect at the wing root exactly vertical to the two holes in the spars. And also the quick connect in the fuselage exactly vertical to each other. This is your starting point.    



Regards 



Richard

On 24 Jun 2014, at 19:50, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]

Thanks...all good suggestions however sadly its not mass balance arms I checked by shining a light through the mass balance boxes....not even close to the skin

 Will On 24 Jun 2014 13:30, "jonathanmilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Europa-List message posted by: "jonathanmilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)>

 

 You're quite sure that the aileron mass balances aren't touching the wing upper surfaces inside the recesses? I have the old foam-filled wings and maybe such a phenomenon isn't likely with the newer factory-made wings.

  

 I sure struggled with shaving bits of lead and adjusting the aileron mass balance arm attachments until I could barely reach the down limit.

 

 Then of course there's the problem which could arise if the aileron quick connector pivots in the fuselage and on the spars don't align.

 

 I ended the long struggle to rig the ailerons correctly with only just getting sufficient up and down deflection, but with a tiny amount of reflex when both ailerons are ostensibly in the neutral position.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425376#425376

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 ===========

 MS -

 k">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 e -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 

	
   

[b]

_________________
Richard Wheelwright
G-IRPW
First Flight 24th July 2013

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:57 pm Post subject: My ailerons wont go down

William,

Look at the attached.  Contains quite a bit of info on rigging the ailerons

wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:25 pm Post subject: My ailerons wont go down

David

 Yes the thought ocurred to me and it could be that this is the root of the problem.Â  I made two templates and following buds instructions measured at the hinge both for up and down ie using the lower surface of the wing compared to the lower surface of the aileron.Â Â  So yes I am measuring both up and down from the same place...the inboard hinge mid point.

  Is this correct? 

 Will On 24 Jun 2014 12:43, "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)> wrote:[quote] --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>

 

 

 William, I don't know the answer, but if you haven't got one I would strongly advise getting or borrowing a Smart Tool so that you can easily and very accurately measure angles. It does occur to me to wonder whether you are measuring your up and down angles off the same surface (i.e. Are you measuring the neutral angle of say the upper surface, then measuring the up and down angles of the upper surface, rather than the up angle of the upper surface and the down angle of the lower surface) Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

  

 On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 11:44:48 -0500

 Â William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   I am rigging everything prior to closing

 

 I made some templates 23.5 up and 20 down for use on the underside mindful

 or buds strictures to measure at the hinge

 

 I have followed the procedure on the book (i think).

 

 *1. Check that the short aileron link-rod is adjusted such that when the

 bellcrank W13 is against its **stop, the aileron has moved 23.5Âº up.*

 *2. With the aileron at neutral, adjust the length of the lateral push-rod

 so that the quick-connect **bellcrank W16 is at 90Âº to a line between both

 spar bushes.*

 *3. Adjust the tie-rod between both cranks CS08 so that both control

 columns are parallel.*

 *4. Adjust the short outer push-rods between the CS08â€™s and the CS15

 bellcranks so that the latter are **vertical when the control columns are

 vertical.*

 *When the wings are rigged the aileron movement should be 23.5Âº up and 20Âº

 down with full lateral **control column movement and both ailerons should

 be in their neutral positions together when the*

 *control columns are vertical.*

 

 

 My ailerons go up the required 23.5 deg against both stops but they don't

 go down the required 20 deg...not even close I would guess that they are

 about 15-17 down

 

 I have taken it to bits and put it together fiddled around but Im stumped.

 What I am I doing wrong?

 

 Might it be that the control columns should not be parallell in this case

 due to variation in the build....

 

 thanks

 

 Will

 

 

 William Daniell

 LONGPORT

 [url=tel:%2B57%20310%20295%200744]+57 310 295 0744[/url]

 	
 

 ====================================

 st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 ====================================

 MS -

 k">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 e -

  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

 

 

 

 [b]

wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:56 pm Post subject: My ailerons wont go down

mmm yes did all that right...I think. Â  Â I put the spar pins and put straight edge between them in and then used an set square to ensure QD face 90deg to straight edge

 



Obviously I am doing something wrong....but I can figure out what.

 



I mean I set the up stop to 23.5 degrees

 i made the wing QD vertical to a line between the spar pins

I made the control columns vertical and parallel

 



Set the the fuze QD vertical

 



and the result is ....It's driving me mad because I cant see the error.

 



Am I measuring the deflection wrong by using a template of Â 24% degree relative to the lower wing skin on the aileron hinge?....Or measuring the down deflection in the same way using a 20 deg template?

 



I read Bud's instructions and I understand that in practice the up deflection should be 1 degree less than the 23.5deg of the manual... I will try that for a start and then start adjusting the short link rods of the fuselage to get more down throw

 



thanks for you help

 



Will

William Daniell



LONGPORT

+57 310 295 0744



 

 



On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Richard Wheelwright <rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk (rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk)> wrote:

[quote] Could it be the stop in the opposite wing stoping it going down far enough? It it is you must set the quick connect at the wing root exactly vertical to the two holes in the spars. And also the quick connect in the fuselage exactly vertical to each other. This is your starting point. Â  Â 

 

RegardsÂ 



Richard

On 24 Jun 2014, at 19:50, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

Thanks...all good suggestions however sadly its not mass balance arms I checked by shining a light through the mass balance boxes....not even close to the skin

 Will On 24 Jun 2014 13:30, "jonathanmilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		    --> Europa-List message posted by: "jonathanmilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)>

 

 You're quite sure that the aileron mass balances aren't touching the wing upper surfaces inside the recesses? I have the old foam-filled wings and maybe such a phenomenon isn't likely with the newer factory-made wings.

   

 I sure struggled with shaving bits of lead and adjusting the aileron mass balance arm attachments until I could barely reach the down limit.

 

 Then of course there's the problem which could arise if the aileron quick connector pivots in the fuselage and on the spars don't align.

 

 I ended the long struggle to rig the ailerons correctly with only just getting sufficient up and down deflection, but with a tiny amount of reflex when both ailerons are ostensibly in the neutral position.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=425376#425376

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 ===========

 MS -

 k">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 e -

  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 

	
   





3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



	


[b]

kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:19 pm Post subject: My ailerons wont go down

William,



I don't pretend to know the solution but another thing that could be a source of the problem is the positioning of the drive stud on the aileron onto which the push rod connects. 



This positioning is critical in order to get enough throw on the ailerons. 



Bud may be able to suggest an easy method to check this if indeed he agrees with my thoughts. 



Cheers

Kingsley in Oz



Sent from my iPhone

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:57 pm Post subject: My ailerons wont go down

William, I don't know that I can really be any help 

without looking at the set up directly. But my point about 

the Smart tool is that it is an inclinometer (and there 

are cheaper if slightly less accurate ones available) with 

which you can measure the angle of the top surface in 

neutral, fully up and fully down positions. Subtracting 

one from the other gives you your deflections with no 

scope for confusion. I was not clear whether you are doing 

these measurements with both wings rigged and if so 

whether you are getting full down and limited up on each 

side. Also whether measuring deflections on the unrigged 

isolated wing gives you the full range (which of course 

rules out any question of the mass balance horn 

interfering).

      Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ



On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 17:25:15 -0500

  William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   David

 Yes the thought ocurred to me and it could be that this 

is the root of the

 problem.  I made two templates and following buds 

instructions measured at

 the hinge both for up and down ie using the lower 

surface of the wing

 compared to the lower surface of the aileron.   So yes I 

am measuring both

 up and down from the same place...the inboard hinge mid 

point.

 Is this correct?

 Will

 On 24 Jun 2014 12:43, "David Joyce" 

<davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> wrote:

 

> 

> davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>

> William, I don't know the answer, but if you haven't got 

>one I would

> strongly advise getting or borrowing a Smart Tool so 

>that you can easily

> and very accurately measure angles. It does occur to me 

>to wonder whether

> you are measuring your up and down angles off the same 

>surface (i.e. Are

> you measuring the neutral angle of say the upper 

>surface, then measuring

> the up and down angles of the upper surface, rather than 

>the up angle of

> the upper surface and the down angle of the lower 

>surface) Regards, David

> Joyce, G-XSDJ

>

> On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 11:44:48 -0500

>  William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> wrote:

>

>> I am rigging everything prior to closing

>>

>> I made some templates 23.5 up and 20 down for use on the 

>>underside mindful

>> or buds strictures to measure at the hinge

>>

>> I have followed the procedure on the book (i think).

>>

>> *1. Check that the short aileron link-rod is adjusted 

>>such that when the

>> bellcrank W13 is against its **stop, the aileron has 

>>moved 23.5Âº up.*

>> *2. With the aileron at neutral, adjust the length of 

>>the lateral push-rod

>> so that the quick-connect **bellcrank W16 is at 90Âº to a 

>>line between both

>> spar bushes.*

>> *3. Adjust the tie-rod between both cranks CS08 so that 

>>both control

>> columns are parallel.*

>> *4. Adjust the short outer push-rods between the CS08â€™s 

>>and the CS15

>> bellcranks so that the latter are **vertical when the 

>>control columns are

>> vertical.*

>> *When the wings are rigged the aileron movement should 

>>be 23.5Âº up and 20Âº

>> down with full lateral **control column movement and 

>>both ailerons should

>> be in their neutral positions together when the*

>> *control columns are vertical.*

>>

>>

>> My ailerons go up the required 23.5 deg against both 

>>stops but they don't

>> go down the required 20 deg...not even close I would 

>>guess that they are

>> about 15-17 down

>>

>> I have taken it to bits and put it together fiddled 

>>around but Im stumped.

>> What I am I doing wrong?

>>

>> Might it be that the control columns should not be 

>>parallell in this case

>> due to variation in the build....

>>

>> thanks

>>

>> Will

>>

>>

>> William Daniell

>> LONGPORT

>> +57 310 295 0744

>>

>

 ============

 ============

 ============

 ============

>

>

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:03 am Post subject: My ailerons wont go down

William, As a PS if you do have full range on the unrigged 

wings and full down/reduced up on both with both wings 

rigged , then you need to adjust the length of  control 

rods between wingroot and bell crank. Regards, David



On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 17:25:15 -0500

  William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   David

 Yes the thought ocurred to me and it could be that this 

is the root of the

 problem.  I made two templates and following buds 

instructions measured at

 the hinge both for up and down ie using the lower 

surface of the wing

 compared to the lower surface of the aileron.   So yes I 

am measuring both

 up and down from the same place...the inboard hinge mid 

point.

 Is this correct?

 Will

 On 24 Jun 2014 12:43, "David Joyce" 

<davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> wrote:

 

> 

> davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>

> William, I don't know the answer, but if you haven't got 

>one I would

> strongly advise getting or borrowing a Smart Tool so 

>that you can easily

> and very accurately measure angles. It does occur to me 

>to wonder whether

> you are measuring your up and down angles off the same 

>surface (i.e. Are

> you measuring the neutral angle of say the upper 

>surface, then measuring

> the up and down angles of the upper surface, rather than 

>the up angle of

> the upper surface and the down angle of the lower 

>surface) Regards, David

> Joyce, G-XSDJ

>

> On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 11:44:48 -0500

>  William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> wrote:

>

>> I am rigging everything prior to closing

>>

>> I made some templates 23.5 up and 20 down for use on the 

>>underside mindful

>> or buds strictures to measure at the hinge

>>

>> I have followed the procedure on the book (i think).

>>

>> *1. Check that the short aileron link-rod is adjusted 

>>such that when the

>> bellcrank W13 is against its **stop, the aileron has 

>>moved 23.5Âº up.*

>> *2. With the aileron at neutral, adjust the length of 

>>the lateral push-rod

>> so that the quick-connect **bellcrank W16 is at 90Âº to a 

>>line between both

>> spar bushes.*

>> *3. Adjust the tie-rod between both cranks CS08 so that 

>>both control

>> columns are parallel.*

>> *4. Adjust the short outer push-rods between the CS08â€™s 

>>and the CS15

>> bellcranks so that the latter are **vertical when the 

>>control columns are

>> vertical.*

>> *When the wings are rigged the aileron movement should 

>>be 23.5Âº up and 20Âº

>> down with full lateral **control column movement and 

>>both ailerons should

>> be in their neutral positions together when the*

>> *control columns are vertical.*

>>

>>

>> My ailerons go up the required 23.5 deg against both 

>>stops but they don't

>> go down the required 20 deg...not even close I would 

>>guess that they are

>> about 15-17 down

>>

>> I have taken it to bits and put it together fiddled 

>>around but Im stumped.

>> What I am I doing wrong?

>>

>> Might it be that the control columns should not be 

>>parallell in this case

>> due to variation in the build....

>>

>> thanks

>>

>> Will

>>

>>

>> William Daniell

>> LONGPORT

>> +57 310 295 0744

>>

>

 ============

 ============

 ============

 ============

>

>

wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:16 am Post subject: My ailerons wont go down

Gentlemen thanks for your contributions

  I do have more than the full movement required without the wings rigged leading me to identify the control system as the prime suspect.

  I shall re-start the process from scratch next weekend (very annoying how work interferes with building)

I do actually have a smart tool but it's a long one which is too unwieldy for the ailerons so I will acquire a short one  
Reducing the up throw by one degree per bud's instructions
Adjust the wing QD to 90 deg
levelÂ everythingÂ and check that theÂ fuselageÂ end is all correct control columns vertical andÂ parallel
centre the ailerons and ensure that the QDs are vertical (usingÂ my newly acquired short smart tool)Â  
And then if thatÂ doesn'tÂ solve it startÂ playingÂ around with the fuselage link rods - where Â I now suspect the culprit lies.Â 
I think onÂ reflectionÂ that IÂ haven'tÂ followed the process carefully enough so ....I am going to do it again...  thanks Will



William Daniell



LONGPORT

[url=tel:%2B57%20310%20295%200744]+57 310 295 0744[/url]

 



 



On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 3:02 AM, David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)> wrote:

[quote]  --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>

 

 

 William, As a PS if you do have full range on the unrigged wings and full down/reduced up on both with both wings rigged , then you need to adjust the length of Â control rods between wingroot and bell crank. Regards, David

   

 On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 17:25:15 -0500

 Â William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   David

 Yes the thought ocurred to me and it could be that this is the root of the

 problem. Â I made two templates and following buds instructions measured at

 the hinge both for up and down ie using the lower surface of the wing

 compared to the lower surface of the aileron. Â  So yes I am measuring both

 up and down from the same place...the inboard hinge mid point.

 Is this correct?

 Will

 On 24 Jun 2014 12:43, "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)> wrote:

 

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <

 davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>

 

 

 William, I don't know the answer, but if you haven't got one I would

 strongly advise getting or borrowing a Smart Tool so that you can easily

 and very accurately measure angles. It does occur to me to wonder whether

 you are measuring your up and down angles off the same surface (i.e. Are

 you measuring the neutral angle of say the upper surface, then measuring

 the up and down angles of the upper surface, rather than the up angle of

 the upper surface and the down angle of the lower surface) Regards, David

 Joyce, G-XSDJ

 

 On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 11:44:48 -0500

 Â William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 

  	  Quote: 	
		   I am rigging everything prior to closing

 

 I made some templates 23.5 up and 20 down for use on the underside mindful

 or buds strictures to measure at the hinge

 

 I have followed the procedure on the book (i think).

 

 *1. Check that the short aileron link-rod is adjusted such that when the

 bellcrank W13 is against its **stop, the aileron has moved 23.5Âº up.*

 *2. With the aileron at neutral, adjust the length of the lateral push-rod

 so that the quick-connect **bellcrank W16 is at 90Âº to a line between both

 spar bushes.*

 *3. Adjust the tie-rod between both cranks CS08 so that both control

 columns are parallel.*

 *4. Adjust the short outer push-rods between the CS08â€™s and the CS15

 bellcranks so that the latter are **vertical when the control columns are

 vertical.*

 *When the wings are rigged the aileron movement should be 23.5Âº up and 20Âº

 down with full lateral **control column movement and both ailerons should

 be in their neutral positions together when the*

 *control columns are vertical.*

 

 

 My ailerons go up the required 23.5 deg against both stops but they don't

 go down the required 20 deg...not even close I would guess that they are

 about 15-17 down

 

 I have taken it to bits and put it together fiddled around but Im stumped.

 What I am I doing wrong?

 

 Might it be that the control columns should not be parallell in this case

 due to variation in the build....

 

 thanks

 

 Will

 

 

 William Daniell

 LONGPORT

 [url=tel:%2B57%20310%20295%200744]+57 310 295 0744[/url]

 

 	
 

 	
 ============

 ============

 ============

 ============

  	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 

 

 	
	
 

 ====================================

 st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 ====================================

 MS -

 k">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 e -

  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

 

 

 

 [b]

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:11 am Post subject: My ailerons wont go down

Will…sorry that I’ve been unable to help, but please do make a posting detailing how this works out for you; I suspect it would be most helpful to others…Fred

On Jun 25, 2014, at 4:15 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Gentlemen thanks for your contributions

	


 [quote][b]

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:47 am Post subject: My ailerons wont go down

William, If your Smartool is anything like my long 

smartool you can unscreww the short smartool from it 

rather than buy another. Regards, David Joyce

On Wed, 25 Jun 2014 06:15:43 -0500

  William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Gentlemen thanks for your contributions

 

 I do have more than the full movement required without 

the wings rigged

 leading me to identify the control system as the prime 

suspect.

 

 I shall re-start the process from scratch next weekend 

(very annoying how

 work interferes with building)

 

   - I do actually have a smart tool but it's a long one 

which is too

   unwieldy for the ailerons so I will acquire a short 

one

   - Reducing the up throw by one degree per bud's 

instructions

   - Adjust the wing QD to 90 deg

   - level everything and check that the fuselage end is 

all correct

      - control columns vertical and parallel

      - centre the ailerons and ensure that the QDs are 

vertical (using my

      newly acquired short smart tool)

   - And then if that doesn't solve it start playing 

around with the

   fuselage link rods - where  I now suspect the culprit 

lies.

   - I think on reflection that I haven't followed the 

process carefully

   enough so ....I am going to do it again...

 

 thanks Will

 

 William Daniell

 LONGPORT

 +57 310 295 0744

 

 

 On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 3:02 AM, David Joyce 

<davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>

 wrote:

 

> 

> davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>

> William, As a PS if you do have full range on the 

>unrigged wings and full

> down/reduced up on both with both wings rigged , then 

>you need to adjust

> the length of  control rods between wingroot and bell 

>crank. Regards, David

>

> On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 17:25:15 -0500

>  William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> wrote:

>

>> David

>> Yes the thought ocurred to me and it could be that this 

>>is the root of the

>> problem.  I made two templates and following buds 

>>instructions measured at

>> the hinge both for up and down ie using the lower 

>>surface of the wing

>> compared to the lower surface of the aileron.   So yes I 

>>am measuring both

>> up and down from the same place...the inboard hinge mid 

>>point.

>> Is this correct?

>> Will

>> On 24 Jun 2014 12:43, "David Joyce" 

>><davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk> wrote:

>>

>>  

>>> davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>

>>>

>>>

>>> William, I don't know the answer, but if you haven't got 

>>>one I would

>>> strongly advise getting or borrowing a Smart Tool so 

>>>that you can easily

>>> and very accurately measure angles. It does occur to me 

>>>to wonder whether

>>> you are measuring your up and down angles off the same 

>>>surface (i.e. Are

>>> you measuring the neutral angle of say the upper 

>>>surface, then measuring

>>> the up and down angles of the upper surface, rather than 

>>>the up angle of

>>> the upper surface and the down angle of the lower 

>>>surface) Regards, David

>>> Joyce, G-XSDJ

>>>

>>> On Tue, 24 Jun 2014 11:44:48 -0500

>>>  William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> wrote:

>>>

>>>  I am rigging everything prior to closing

>>>>

>>>> I made some templates 23.5 up and 20 down for use on the 

>>>>underside

>>>> mindful

>>>> or buds strictures to measure at the hinge

>>>>

>>>> I have followed the procedure on the book (i think).

>>>>

>>>> *1. Check that the short aileron link-rod is adjusted 

>>>>such that when the

>>>> bellcrank W13 is against its **stop, the aileron has 

>>>>moved 23.5Âº up.*

>>>> *2. With the aileron at neutral, adjust the length of 

>>>>the lateral

>>>> push-rod

>>>> so that the quick-connect **bellcrank W16 is at 90Âº to a 

>>>>line between

>>>> both

>>>> spar bushes.*

>>>> *3. Adjust the tie-rod between both cranks CS08 so that 

>>>>both control

>>>> columns are parallel.*

>>>> *4. Adjust the short outer push-rods between the CS08â€™s 

>>>>and the CS15

>>>> bellcranks so that the latter are **vertical when the 

>>>>control columns

>>>> are

>>>> vertical.*

>>>> *When the wings are rigged the aileron movement should 

>>>>be 23.5Âº up and

>>>> 20Âº

>>>> down with full lateral **control column movement and 

>>>>both ailerons

>>>> should

>>>> be in their neutral positions together when the*

>>>> *control columns are vertical.*

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> My ailerons go up the required 23.5 deg against both 

>>>>stops but they

>>>> don't

>>>> go down the required 20 deg...not even close I would 

>>>>guess that they are

>>>> about 15-17 down

>>>>

>>>> I have taken it to bits and put it together fiddled 

>>>>around but Im

>>>> stumped.

>>>> What I am I doing wrong?

>>>>

>>>> Might it be that the control columns should not be 

>>>>parallell in this

>>>> case

>>>> due to variation in the build....

>>>>

>>>> thanks

>>>>

>>>> Will

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> William Daniell

>>>> LONGPORT

>>>> +57 310 295 0744

>>>>

>>>>

>>>  ============

>> ============

>> ============

>> ============

>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

 ============

 ============

 ============

 ============

>

>

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:18 pm Post subject: My ailerons wont go down

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Will,

 You've got the right attitude.

  

 Setting the belcrank on the wing to 90 degrees is only one part of the  rig.  Your fuselage QDs may be the culprit as well.  You can adjust  the aileron as suggested many ways.  Check that your flaps and  wingtips are not drooping.  Use your incidence board and check the flaps on  both sides are dead level with the board.  If your board is lost, you have  only the lower wing to set level across the flaps with the lower first six  inches of the wing skin.

  

 Big thing to remember is the outer short push rod sets the up limit at  nominally 23.5 to 24.5 (25.5 max). The up limit on one aileron sets  the down limit on the other.  If you have full required travel of the  aileron (roughly 42-46 degrees) your problem is normally your QDs are not set  vertical to the ground with the fuselage level and plumb.

  

 Measuring with a Smart digital level is made easier by some manufacturers  by removing the center portion.  Now you have a short smart level.   The smart tool is a bit cumbersome to use but essential for the flap/stab  measurements.  For the ailerons, I use a simple protractor made by General  (#29) for inside and outside measurements.  It is about $5.  (A  carpenters bevel gauge works outstanding also.)  

  

 Set the protractor/bevel gauge at the desired angle and put it just to  the outboard of either wing hinge (I use the inboard) and take a quick  look and adjust down to about 24.5 degrees or so by just holding the gauge to  the wing and looking at the gap.  With the aileron up (outside postion  on the protractor) I set the pushrod to give me 23.5 to 24.5 as set on my  protractor/bevel gauge.  I do the same on the other wing.  I check  that with the aileron down I get full down plus some before the wt.  hits the closeout.  Then set the fuselage and wing QD to vertical.   That should work, but doesn't always as you found out!  

  

 Some adjustment of the fuselage QD belcrank is necessary to get the  ailerons to be level with the flaps and outboard wing tip.  Use your now  shortened smart tool to get the fuselage QD vertical with the outer skin as best  you can, or put the pins in and set a T square on them to set the QDs.   Yes, I know the T square is too big, so put the long section in the fuselage and  use a piece of 6 inch 3/4 lumber on the QD and align it with the square.   Make sure both sides are the same.  Set the wing lateral push rod to get  the wing QD parallel to the pins.  Don't get excited about setting the  phenolic pads right now.  Look hard at your bolt head alignment on the  QDs.  They are probably off a bit.  By adjusting slightly the angle of  the QD you can adjust for some misalignment.  Then put in the final  pad.  (If too far apart, tack some phenolic in place with a drop of super  glue to help get things close to final.)  Repeat on the other wing.   Note the ailerons for droop or reflex (up) with both wings rigged and  pinned.  The ailerons should be even (both slightly up or down).   Now, degrig, adjust the lateral pushrod a turn in the appropriate direction  on each side, and rerig.  Continue until you have them both even and the  throw correct.

  

 To be honest, sometimes the wingtip is a bit off, so if your flaps are dead  on, use them.  If the tips are off, I use a smart level and my T  squares to measure if there is twist between wings.  That's another fix we  won't get into right now. See my trimming notes if the incidence or flaps  are not exactly the same. 

  

 Good luck this weekend.  You have all the tools and frankly it sounds  like you have the total throw so you're almost there.

  

 Remember, if you haven't taken it apart and put it together at  least five times (per wing), you're doing it wrong.  

  

 Bud Yerly

  

  

 [quote]   ---

wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:23 pm Post subject: My ailerons wont go down

thanks I will let y'all know how it goes. Â I'm warming up for round two this weekend.

 Will



William Daniell



LONGPORT

+57 310 295 0744

 



On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 3:17 PM, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:

[quote]          Will,

 You've got the right attitude.

 Â 

 Setting the belcrank on the wing to 90 degrees is only one part of the  rig.Â  Your fuselage QDs may be the culprit as well.Â  You can adjust  theÂ aileron as suggested many ways.Â  Check that your flaps and  wingtips are not drooping.Â  Use your incidence board and check the flaps on  both sides are dead level with the board.Â  If your board is lost, you have  only the lower wing to set level across the flaps with the lower first six  inches of the wing skin.

 Â 

 Big thing to remember is the outer short push rod sets the up limit at  nominally 23.5 to 24.5Â (25.5 max).Â The up limit on one aileron sets  the down limit on the other.Â  If you have full required travel of the  aileron (roughly 42-46 degrees) your problem is normally your QDs are not set  vertical to the ground with the fuselage level and plumb.

 Â 

 Measuring with a Smart digital level is made easier by some manufacturers  by removing the center portion.Â  Now you have a short smart level.Â   The smart tool isÂ a bit cumbersome to use but essential for the flap/stab  measurements.Â  For the ailerons, I use a simple protractor made by General  (#29)Â for inside and outside measurements.Â  It is about $5.Â  (A  carpenters bevel gauge works outstanding also.)Â  

 Â 

 Set the protractor/bevel gaugeÂ at the desired angle and put it just to  the outboard of either wing hinge (I use theÂ inboard) andÂ take a quick  look and adjust down to about 24.5 degrees or so by just holding the gauge to  the wing and looking at the gap.Â  With the aileronÂ up (outside postion  on the protractor) I set the pushrod to give me 23.5 to 24.5 as set on my  protractor/bevel gauge.Â  I do the same on the other wing.Â  I check  that with theÂ aileron down I getÂ full down plus some before the wt.  hits the closeout.Â  Then set the fuselage and wing QD to vertical.Â   That should work, but doesn't always as you found out!Â  

 Â 

 Some adjustment of the fuselage QD belcrank is necessary to get the  ailerons to be level with the flaps and outboard wing tip.Â  Use your now  shortened smart tool to get the fuselage QD vertical with the outer skin as best  you can, or put the pins in and set a T square on them to set the QDs.Â   Yes, I know the T square is too big, so put the long section in the fuselage and  use a piece of 6 inch 3/4 lumber on the QD and align it with the square.Â   Make sure both sides are the same.Â  Set the wing lateral push rod to get  the wing QD parallel to the pins.Â  Don't get excited about setting the  phenolic pads right now.Â  Look hard at your bolt head alignment on the  QDs.Â  They are probably off a bit.Â  By adjusting slightly the angle of  the QD you can adjust for some misalignment.Â  Then put in the final  pad.Â  (If too far apart, tack some phenolic in place with a drop of super  glue to help get things close to final.)Â  Repeat on the other wing.Â   Note the ailerons for droop or reflex (up)Â with both wings rigged and  pinned.Â Â The ailerons should be even (both slightly up or down).Â   Now, degrig,Â adjust the lateral pushrod a turn in the appropriate direction  on each side, and rerig.Â  Continue until you have them both even and the  throw correct.

 Â 

 To be honest, sometimes the wingtip is a bit off, so if your flaps are dead  on, use them.Â  If the tips are off,Â I use a smart level and my T  squares to measure if there is twist between wings.Â  That's another fix we  won't get into right now.Â See my trimming notes if the incidence or flaps  areÂ not exactly the same.Â 

 Â 

 Good luck this weekend.Â  You have all the tools and frankly it sounds  like you have the total throw so you're almost there.

 Â 

 Remember, if you haven't taken it apart and put it together at  leastÂ five times (per wing), you're doing it wrong.Â Â 

 Â 

 Bud Yerly

 Â 

 Â 

 [quote]   ---

wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 6:34 pm Post subject: My ailerons wont go down

Firstly thanks to Howard Brooks who gave me the idea of downloading a clinometer from google play to my phone. Â I built a sort of stand so that the phone can stand on its edge out of a piece of hardware aluminium angle. Â Thus I could clip the phone to the trailing edge of the aileron. Â I checked the download against my smart tool - it turned out to be as good as my smart tool.  
Next I fitted the flaps and ailerons lined them up and and marked theÂ neutralÂ position on the wing tip to avoid having to take the wings on and off with the flaps on. incidentally using my newly acquired clinometer I found that my left flap as lower by 1 deg than the right flap. Â So i used Buds flap trimming advice and epoxied 4 plies of lay up on the top of the flap drive hole. Â Now the flaps are identical.  
Next I took everything apart checked the aileron throw with my new phone clinometer. Â The left aileron was close to ok but i reset that to 22.5 up and set the wing QD to 90 deg to the bushes. Â   
The right wing was waaay out. Â I sounded like the front edge of the aileron was contacting the channel in which it sits not allowing it to go full up. Â I checked this out by using a pencil scribble in the channel and masking tape on the LE of theÂ aileron. Â It was contacting theÂ channel right at the tip. Â At the same time the lower surface of the aileron was about 1/8 below the lower surface of the wing. Â So i taped a 3/16 washer as a spacer between the hinge and the wing. Â TheÂ lowerÂ surface was level with the wing and i got 24 degÂ up. Â I put 5 lay ups (over and above the reinforcement plies as a spacer on the hinge contactÂ point. Â I set the left aileron to 22.5 up and made the QD 90deg to spar pins  
I next went after the fuselage end. Â I had some aileron control tube left over which I cut in half andÂ insertedÂ into the controlÂ columns to check that the sticks are parallel - I used a couple of lazer levels but as bud says the eye was just asÂ accurate.Â Â I then centered the sticks by using a spirit level on the top of the aluminium stick socket Â - IÂ figuredÂ if the top of the socket was level then the stickÂ wouldÂ be vertical. Â Using a long 1/4 bolt I markedÂ theÂ center point on the seat front - drilled a 1/4 in hole and now i have the sticks centered and held. Â   
Next I turned my attention the fuze QD. Â Using a cut down spirit level which I had previously checked for accuracy i checked that the QDs were vertical with the sticks vertical. Â ( I had previously leveled the fuze both ways). Â they were.  
I put is all together and hey presto very close to perfect.
Ive still got some fiddling around to do but buds instructions were spot on.  the take aways from this are:

measuring tools are not tools they are "instruments" and require checking. Â Â   Only some of the levels i had were accurateÂ 
I had previously used aÂ oldÂ style clinometer - like aÂ protractorÂ with a dial- it simplyÂ wasn'tÂ accurateÂ enough  
check all your instruments coincide before you start
the free download clinometer is the absolute business asÂ accurateÂ as the smart level and a lot cheaper  
You get better at this as you go along. Â I was pretty much sure I had done the process right the first time a couple of years back.
There was a wrinkleÂ whichÂ as the right wing aileron movement which I would have picked up if I had had the right kit.  thanks for all help and suggestions I hope this is the last bleat (on this subject)



yours

  



Will



William Daniell



LONGPORT

[url=tel:%2B57%20310%20295%200744]+57 310 295 0744[/url]

  



 



  [quote][b]

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