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AW Certificate

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Ernie

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:21 am Post subject: AW Certificate

I just spoke with the FSDO this morning about getting a new set of Op's limitations for the CJ I just bought. He started talking about phase 1 flight and such, and I had to stop him to explain that I just need the home base and the pilot changed, and that the plane has already gone through all it's flight tests. 



He said to mail in the info or get a DAR.

Can I get any suggestions on the the most painless way, I can't remember the process from my previous airplanes.

 Ernie



  [quote][b]

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:36 am Post subject: AW Certificate

Ernie,



Hopefully you have the set of operating limitations that the previous owner had from the previous base of operations.



Here is a note about that.



It is against regulations for the FAA to make any changes to Operating Limitations already established for your aircraft that presently exist for a simple owner change.   If you do not hold those op limits in hand, then a call to the FSDO of the previous owner will produce them.  They .. .the FAA.... are required to keep them on file.



You simply take the old Operating Limitations, and send them in along with everything else needed to get the new Special Airworthiness Cert.  as both must have the same date.



If the guy at your FSDO does not want to listen to this, do not debate it.   I assume you are already an EAA member.   Call the EAA's Govt. branch and tell them about your issue.  They will give you every single rule and regulation that you need to know, and you then PROVIDE that to the FAA and tell them that IAW such and such, you need them to perform said actions.  Never ask the FAA what YOU need to do.  Tell them what THEY need to do, and have in advance a copy of the rules and regs accordingly.



Now on the other hand.... if you desire to CHANGE any of your Operating Limitations, that opens up a bag of worms that you have to be very careful of, because then is when a DAR will come in, and then is when the FAA can add all sorts of bad things.



Be careful.



Mark



p.s.  This is the short version.  Others on here know much more, but that is how I recommend handling it.

--

Ernie

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:43 am Post subject: AW Certificate

I have the original Ops limitations in hand. Do I also mail in the AW cert that I have? That will ground the airplane for as long as they wish to hold this up.



Ernie



 



On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:35 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

  

 Ernie,

 

 Hopefully you have the set of operating limitations that the previous owner had from the previous base of operations.

 

 Here is a note about that.

 

 It is against regulations for the FAA to make any changes to Operating Limitations already established for your aircraft that presently exist for a simple owner change.   If you do not hold those op limits in hand, then a call to the FSDO of the previous owner will produce them.  They .. .the FAA.... are required to keep them on file.

  

 You simply take the old Operating Limitations, and send them in along with everything else needed to get the new Special Airworthiness Cert.  as both must have the same date.

 

 If the guy at your FSDO does not want to listen to this, do not debate it.   I assume you are already an EAA member.   Call the EAA's Govt. branch and tell them about your issue.  They will give you every single rule and regulation that you need to know, and you then PROVIDE that to the FAA and tell them that IAW such and such, you need them to perform said actions.  Never ask the FAA what YOU need to do.  Tell them what THEY need to do, and have in advance a copy of the rules and regs accordingly.

  

 Now on the other hand.... if you desire to CHANGE any of your Operating Limitations, that opens up a bag of worms that you have to be very careful of, because then is when a DAR will come in, and then is when the FAA can add all sorts of bad things.

  

 Be careful.

 

 Mark

 

 p.s.  This is the short version.  Others on here know much more, but that is how I recommend handling it.

 

 

 --

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:56 am Post subject: AW Certificate

Actually Ernie, I believe the aircraft is grounded as soon as you purchased and moved it.   Not that people really do this that often, but you are supposed to have had a Ferry Flight permit to move it from where it was to where it now is.  Once it gets to its new home, the old Op Limits that went along with the old AW Cert are null and void, the moment the new registration cert paperwork is dated.



If the FAA has not officially been informed that the plane is sold, then you could probably fly it with the old paperwork but you're walking on thin ice.   Also is the matter of insurance.  Bet you dollars to donuts that they would not be real happy with that kind of situation should an accident occur.



I am in NO WAY a Legal Eagle on this matter.   The EAA Govt. Branch is very supportive, they know EVERYTHING, and are your go-to folks.   Listen to them, not me... I am merely "suggesting".



Mark

--

Ernie

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:02 am Post subject: AW Certificate

Mark,



Thanks for your advice on checking with EAA. With a few clicks I found this. Turns out, when an EE aircraft changes hands all that one needs to do is send a program letter to the local FSDO, no need for new AW cert or Ops Limitations. Yaaa!

 



FAA Clarifies Guidance for Experimental Exhibition and Air Racing Airworthiness Certificates 

By Bill Fischer, Executive Director, EAA Warbirds of America

January 20, 2012 - The Federal Aviation Administration has issued a memorandum providing clarification to FAA Order 8130.2G, Airworthiness Certification of Aircraft and Related Products, chapter 4, section 10. The memorandum authorizes deviation to the Order, clarifying operating limitations placed on experimental airworthiness certificates issued for the purpose of exhibition or air racing. 

This is welcomed news for EAA Warbirds of America and other industry groups, who have advocated for years to simplify the Order, yet maintain the highest levels of aviation safety. Going back as far as 2005, EAA Warbirds of America, along with the Commemorative Air Force, Classic Jet Aircraft Association, Army Aviation Heritage Foundation, Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association, Courtesy Aircraft, and others have worked collaboratively with the FAA to identify areas in the Order which needed clarification – both for the owner/operator and the FAA Inspectors in the field. Meetings were held at EAA Headquarters in Oshkosh, WI and FAA Headquarters in Washington D.C. 

All parties agreed to review existing operating limitations based on four safety and operational qualifiers:

Aircraft fleet and individual aircraft flight safety records; 

Proven aircraft maintenance programs;

Pilot training and proficiency programs;

Eliminating duplication of 14 CFR Part 91 requirements. 

What does this mean for owners who operate aircraft certificated in the experimental exhibition or air racing category? Here are several key points:

All previously issued airworthiness certificates and operating limitations will remain valid unless changes are requested by the applicant or reexamined by the FAA in accordance with 49 U.S.C. 44709. 

If the aircraft changes owners or its home base airport, owners need to submit a new Program Letter to the geographically responsible FSDO, but it’s not necessary to re-issue the airworthiness certificate & operating limitations. 

Pilots operating aircraft and passengers of aircraft equipped with an ejection propellant system installed, whether armed or not armed, must satisfactorily complete and FAA accepted ejection seat training program for the pilot and passenger. 

Provisions have been made for consideration of Pioneer Era (prior to 1914) Aircraft – replica, reproduction, restoration, or similar aircraft for certification.

Aircraft are now divided into six (6) groups, based on the aircraft weight, power plant, or other operational considerations. These aircraft groupings help establish standardized operating limitations and inspection requirements. 

Aircraft powered by electric or rocket motors are allowed to be certificated within Group 6. While this is would tend not to apply to Warbird type aircraft (unless someone plans to restore and fly a ME-163!), it does provide an avenue for innovative aviators to get their aircraft certificated. 



On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:53 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

  

 

Actually Ernie, I believe the aircraft is grounded as soon as you purchased and moved it.   Not that people really do this that often, but you are supposed to have had a Ferry Flight permit to move it from where it was to where it now is.  Once it gets to its new home, the old Op Limits that went along with the old AW Cert are null and void, the moment the new registration cert paperwork is dated.

  

 If the FAA has not officially been informed that the plane is sold, then you could probably fly it with the old paperwork but you're walking on thin ice.   Also is the matter of insurance.  Bet you dollars to donuts that they would not be real happy with that kind of situation should an accident occur.

  

 I am in NO WAY a Legal Eagle on this matter.   The EAA Govt. Branch is very supportive, they know EVERYTHING, and are your go-to folks.   Listen to them, not me... I am merely "suggesting".

 

 Mark

 

 

 --

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:16 am Post subject: AW Certificate

Well see?  I was totally wrong... or more nicely put.... out of touch with the present requirements.



Thanks for teaching me the right gouge!



You got the best answer possible.... and you can ignore the FAA guy that SHOULD have told you that.  The part where I said "Tell the FAA what THEY need to do" remains accurate.  



So does contacting the EAA.  Those folks have been ACES for everything I have ever needed.

Mark





--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:33 am Post subject: AW Certificate

One last thing on the topic of operating limitations for EE aircraft.   If your old Op Limits have the 300 NM flight limitation rule, and the "must send in an amendment every time you fly to an airport not listed in your Program Letter".... those can be removed, but you have to be careful when requesting it.   Again, see EAA.



Mark

--

hess737(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:43 am Post subject: AW Certificate

Earnie

A lot of FSDOs want to issue new everything. That is wrong. FAA Order 8130.2F was likely in use when your acft was put in service. It specifically says your ops limits and A/W cert do NOT expire. When you change ownership or location you have to notify the geographically responsible FSDO of that change and provide any FAA approved mx program (jets) as that is on file at the FSDO that issued it. Your ops limits and A/W cert are on file at FAA national. 

Also remember your Documents are tied to your N number. If you change that then you need to have your FSDO update the ops limits as an example, and you would get a new registration. Lastly, 8130.2G eliminated the 300 nm proficiency range restriction as did a previously issues FAA Memo under 8130.2F. Check your ops limits to see what you have. 

Hope this is useful 



Richard HessC 404-964-4885

On Aug 7, 2014, at 3:21, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



[quote]As an added precaution I printed out the order, and will keep it in the airplane along with the program letter and the original ops limitations.



Ernie

 

On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 3:15 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

  

 

Well see?  I was totally wrong... or more nicely put.... out of touch with the present requirements.

 

 Thanks for teaching me the right gouge!

 

 You got the best answer possible.... and you can ignore the FAA guy that SHOULD have told you that.  The part where I said "Tell the FAA what THEY need to do" remains accurate.  

 

 So does contacting the EAA.  Those folks have been ACES for everything I have ever needed.

 

 

 Mark

 

 

 

 

 --

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:35 pm Post subject: AW Certificate

If requesting the         removal of the 300 NM proficiency area, which means the OL's         were written prior to             Sept. 2007 when the 300 NM proficiency area was deleted, the         FSDO's only choice is to rewrite your OL's           to comply with the latest version of             8130.2x.

       Dennis

        	  Quote: 	
		  A. Dennis Savarese

334-285-6263

334-546-8182 (mobile)

www.yak-52.com

Skype - Yakguy1 	
       On 8/6/2014 2:31 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD wrote:

     

     [quote]       [quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)  One last thing on the topic of operating limitations for EE aircraft.   If your old Op Limits have the 300 NM flight limitation rule, and the "must send in an amendment every time you fly to an airport not listed in your Program Letter".... those can be removed, but you have to be careful when requesting it.   Again, see EAA.  Mark   --

Ernie

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:42 pm Post subject: AW Certificate

I don't know if it even matters anymore, since the new rule states that new OL's aren't required with the change of ownership even if the home base has changed. In my case I'm 1800 miles away from the home base listed in my OL's, not to mention it has the previous owners name on it.  



Ernie



On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 4:33 PM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:

 [quote]                   If requesting the         removal of the 300 NM proficiency area, which means the OL's         were written prior to             Sept. 2007 when the 300 NM proficiency area was deleted, the         FSDO's only choice is to rewrite your OL's           to comply with the latest version of             8130.2x.

       Dennis

        	  Quote: 	
		  A. Dennis Savarese

[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]

[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)

www.yak-52.com

Skype - Yakguy1 	
       On 8/6/2014 2:31 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD wrote:

     

     [quote]       [quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)  One last thing on the topic of operating limitations for EE aircraft.   If your old Op Limits have the 300 NM flight limitation rule, and the "must send in an amendment every time you fly to an airport not listed in your Program Letter".... those can be removed, but you have to be careful when requesting it.   Again, see EAA.  Mark   --

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:48 pm Post subject: AW Certificate

Be careful of assuming that common sense applies when dealing with the FAA.



Mark

--

Ernie

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:53 pm Post subject: AW Certificate

Here it is:



If the aircraft changes owners or its home base airport, owners need to

submit a new Program Letter to the geographically responsible FSDO, but

it’s not necessary to re-issue the airworthiness certificate & operating

limitations.

On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:



[quote] 

 mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>



 Be careful of assuming that common sense applies when dealing with the FAA.



 Mark

 --

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:17 pm Post subject: AW Certificate

Ernie,



You might have missed the quote you posted earlier where it also said this:



"All previously issued airworthiness certificates and operating limitations will remain valid unless changes are requested by the applicant or reexamined by the FAA in accordance with 49 U.S.C. 44709."

Dennis said:



" If requesting the removal of the 300 NM proficiency area, which means the OL's were written prior to Sept. 2007 when the 300 NM proficiency area was deleted, the FSDO's only choice is to rewrite your OL's to comply with the latest version of 8130.2x."



That is true.. and I have had it done myself on BOTH of my aircraft.  And if you do not want the 300 NM proficiency area restriction... you have to have your OL's re-written.



However......



When the FAA rewrites the Operating Limitations in accordance with the new 8130 document, only the exact wording has to be in conformance with 8130.2x as Dennis said.  HOWEVER THE FAA CANNOT ADD NEW OPERATING LIMITATIONS IN ANY WAY WHAT-SO-EVER.  They tried that move with me, and I once again called in help from the EAA, and stopped them dead in their tracks.

Mark





--

Ernie

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:20 pm Post subject: AW Certificate

Ehh, at the end of the day, I've never been asked for it, and I don't intend to fly beyond 300 miles any time soon.



Ernie

 On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:

[quote] --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

 

 Ernie,

 

 You might have missed the quote you posted earlier where it also said this:

 

 "All previously issued airworthiness certificates and operating limitations will remain valid unless changes are requested by the applicant or reexamined by the FAA in accordance with 49 U.S.C. 44709."

 

 

[b]

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