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t41pilot
Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 38
Location: Howard City, Michigan
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 Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:07 am Post subject: Brakes |
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It's finally time to stick some brakes on my Firefly and I would like to attempt to use mountain bike brakes. If anybody is currently using that type of setup, I could use a couple of photos of your install to help get me on my way. I plan to use either a stick mount or lever next to me as a control. I sat in a firefly with the standard heel brakes and being short in stature, I found them too difficult to operate. Independent brakes are great but not a must have. I would like to try to fabricate something instead of buying commercial to save cost and give this retired guy something to do. I've got a buddy that knows somebody with a Bike shop so I may be able to get some parts reasonable in cost.
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Gregg Kaat
2011 Firefly |
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olendorf
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 140
Location: Schenectady, NY USA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: Brakes |
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I put these on my Firestar. They work great. One finger will bring me to a screeching halt.
They are cable activated bike brakes.
Avid BB7 Road Disc Brake 140mm x 6 Bolt
I hope you can see what I did there. I had to make two brackets out of aluminum. One bracket plate has the four bolts going through the rim on one side and six bolts holding the rotor on the other side. I switched to narrower tires to make this work. I may have been able to use longer bolts but I like the way this came out. The second bracket is for the caliper to mount to. I thought three bolts on the axle plate would work but I couldn't get a bolt through there so it is held on with just two bolts and is plenty.
The nice feature of these brakes is that the individual side pads can be adjusted easily with your fingers.
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Scott Olendorf
Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop
Schenectady, NY
http://sites.google.com/site/kolbfirestar/ |
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olendorf
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 140
Location: Schenectady, NY USA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Brakes |
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Forgot the hand controls. One lever controls both cables. I also use a wooden wedge to lock the lever open as a parking brake.
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Scott Olendorf
Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop
Schenectady, NY
http://sites.google.com/site/kolbfirestar/ |
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t41pilot
Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 38
Location: Howard City, Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:50 am Post subject: Re: Brakes |
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Thanks for the help Scott. Pictures are always worth a thousand words in my book. Just a couple questions if you don't mind. Do you use the brakes on your landing rollout to slow down or just on the ramp? I used to fly off a grass strip and brakes weren't really necessary but that airport closed so now I'm on a paved airport. I'm concerned about a noseover if the brakes are applied too hard after landing. Also, did you have to buy new axles from Kolb or did you buy some stock yourself? I'm pretty sure the original axles are heat treated. My axles were cut down to fit during my build since I wasn't using brakes, so I need some new ones to accommodate the brake assembly. I'm not sure if a regular pipe threader for plumbing can do steel for the threads needed on the end of the axle. You can buy 5/8 #8 Bolts at the hardware which are hardened but I'm not sure they are strong enough to do the job. My landings are pretty good but not all are greasers.
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Gregg Kaat
2011 Firefly |
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zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:06 am Post subject: Brakes |
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Nicely done,very light clean installation
Sent from my iPhone
| Quote: | On Aug 9, 2014, at 9:36 PM, "olendorf" <olendorf(at)gmail.com> wrote:
I put these on my Firestar. They work great. One finger will bring me to a screeching halt.
They are cable activated bike brakes.
Avid BB7 Road Disc Brake 140mm x 6 Bolt
I hope you can see what I did there. I had to make two brackets out of aluminum. One bracket plate has the four bolts going through the rim on one side and six bolts holding the rotor on the other side. I switched to narrower tires to make this work. I may have been able to use longer bolts but I like the way this came out. The second bracket is for the caliper to mount to. I thought three bolts on the axle plate would work but I couldn't get a bolt through there so it is held on with just two bolts and is plenty.
The nice feature of these brakes is that the individual side pads can be adjusted easily with your fingers.
--------
Scott Olendorf
Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop
Schenectady, NY
http://sites.google.com/site/kolbfirestar/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=428252#428252
Attachments:
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olendorf
Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 140
Location: Schenectady, NY USA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:14 am Post subject: Re: Brakes |
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I do use the brakes on landing rollout, taxiing and as a parking brake while I'm getting into the plane since I start the engine outside then get in.
You need to use the brakes carefully because you will nose over. Not as much an issue when landing because you have more air over the tail to help keep it down. Its really only an issue when trying to do a run up with the brakes locked. I can't get over 4000rpms in a runup without nosing over.
Another concern with using a single handle brake lever is that you will want to adjust your calipers so you get an even pull on both sides. I do that by holding a little brake while taxiing and feel if it is pulling one way or the other, then get out and adjust them.
My axles were already adapted for brakes. They had the flange welded on. I don't have the knowledge to turn a bolt into an axle. That seems like a bad place to take a shortcut. I would buy the proper axles and have a flange welded on. I do know that plumbing threads are not the same as regular nuts and bolts threads.
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Scott Olendorf
Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop
Schenectady, NY
http://sites.google.com/site/kolbfirestar/ |
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t41pilot
Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 38
Location: Howard City, Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:53 am Post subject: Re: Brakes |
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Thanks Scott. You've been most helpful. I mis-spoke on the bolt. I meant Grade 8 not #8. They make those bolts long enough already to use as axles and are threaded on the ends but I'm guessing they are not strong enough or they would be in use already. Unless there are any other ideas for new axles, I will have to call Kolb for a price on new ones. Ultimately I will compare the cost of building a brake system and compare it to the cost of a commercial black max system.
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Gregg Kaat
2011 Firefly |
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herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:18 am Post subject: Brakes |
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I installed mountain bike brakes on my Firefly...worked fine...cost
about 70 bucks...using my lathe and labor...Herb
ps the long cable runs caused some stretching...so they felt a bit spongy..
On 08/10/2014 08:53 AM, t41pilot wrote:
| Quote: |
Thanks Scott. You've been most helpful. I mis-spoke on the bolt. I meant Grade 8 not #8. They make those bolts long enough already to use as axles and are threaded on the ends but I'm guessing they are not strong enough or they would be in use already. Unless there are any other ideas for new axles, I will have to call Kolb for a price on new ones. Ultimately I will compare the cost of building a brake system and compare it to the cost of a commercial black max system.
--------
Gregg Kaat
2011 Firefly
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=428261#428261
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herbgh(at)nctc.com
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:34 am Post subject: Brakes |
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Here is a set for sale on ebay...Herb
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BB5-BB-5-MTB-Mechanical-Disc-Brake-Front-and-Rear-160mm-Rotor-Black-/251448329773?pt=US_Brakes&var=&hash=item3a8b7d062d
ps if I were doing it again...I would try the hydraulic versions...
On 08/10/2014 10:17 AM, Herb wrote:
| Quote: |
I installed mountain bike brakes on my Firefly...worked fine...cost
about 70 bucks...using my lathe and labor...Herb
ps the long cable runs caused some stretching...so they felt a bit
spongy..
On 08/10/2014 08:53 AM, t41pilot wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Scott. You've been most helpful. I mis-spoke on the bolt. I
> meant Grade 8 not #8. They make those bolts long enough already to
> use as axles and are threaded on the ends but I'm guessing they are
> not strong enough or they would be in use already. Unless there are
> any other ideas for new axles, I will have to call Kolb for a price
> on new ones. Ultimately I will compare the cost of building a brake
> system and compare it to the cost of a commercial black max system.
>
> --------
> Gregg Kaat
> 2011 Firefly
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=428261#428261
>
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Thumper
Joined: 24 Aug 2008
Posts: 46
Location: Oakland TN.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:50 am Post subject: Re: Brakes |
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These are the same BB7 brakes but I used the parallel levers under the seat and just reached down for equal braking or differential braking. Worked great. Sold the airplane but these pictures should help.
Dennis
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Dennis Long
Oakland TN
2000 Aeroprakt A20 Vista Cruiser, 2016 A22LS Aeroprakt
Previously Kolb Mark IIIC, 94 Firestar, 84 Ultrastar.
1200+hours since 1/1/2009 |
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herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:28 am Post subject: Brakes |
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I used spacers also...I wanted to turn two spools instead..but I could
not find any large diameter aluminum at the salvage yard... plus , my
wheel barrow rims were not true and I needed to add shims...Herb
On 08/10/2014 10:50 AM, Thumper wrote:
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rmurrill(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:00 am Post subject: Brakes |
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With apparently lots of available braking, why would you go with the
hydraulic version next time? Looks like price is only a little higher. I
need to change from band brakes on a MkIII, and this looks like a really
elegant solution, along with the dual under seat handle configuration.
Bob
"ps if I were doing it again...I would try the hydraulic versions..."
On 08/10/2014 10:17 AM, Herb wrote:
--
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herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:41 am Post subject: Brakes |
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Just the ease of running the lines...and I do not think the cost is very
much more? And the cable stretch that I mentioned...
Kolbs do not need super brakes...that is certain...Haven't check on
the price of a nose cone lately! 
On 08/10/2014 12:59 PM, Bob wrote:
[quote]
With apparently lots of available braking, why would you go with the
hydraulic version next time? Looks like price is only a little
higher. I need to change from band brakes on a MkIII, and this looks
like a really elegant solution, along with the dual under seat handle
configuration.
Bob
"ps if I were doing it again...I would try the hydraulic versions..."
On 08/10/2014 10:17 AM, Herb wrote:
>
>
--
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t41pilot
Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 38
Location: Howard City, Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: Brakes |
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The separate spacers were stiff enough to keep the brake disk from getting out of calibration? I hadn't considered that. I thought the spacer would have to be a solid assembly of some type. I guess the key would be to buy a brake disk whose mounting holes line up with the wheel bolt holes if possible. I'm running the stock azusalite 5 inch wheels right now. I figured I would have to make a template of the hole pattern to take to the bike shop/amazon/ebay and see if I could get something to already line up. That would make the job easier compared to having somebody fabricate a special spacer for me. Thanks for all the photos. They are saved in my archives now
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Gregg Kaat
2011 Firefly |
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:16 am Post subject: Brakes |
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Gregg, I've looked at this option a lot and found two sticklers that always stop me.One, bike brakes tend to be one side only. A right caliper, for instance, is darn near impossible to mount on the left side.
Two, the job of the brake is to dissipate heat energy and disk and caliper sizing is done by how much mass you want to stop and hence, how much heat you need to shed. Putting a bike brake on a plane, even an ultralight like the FireFly, is asking it to work with at least twice the mass for which it was designed.
Good luck,
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sat, Aug 9, 2014 at 1:07 PM, t41pilot <t41pilot(at)frontier.com (t41pilot(at)frontier.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "t41pilot" <t41pilot(at)frontier.com (t41pilot(at)frontier.com)>
It's finally time to stick some brakes on my Firefly and I would like to attempt to use mountain bike brakes. If anybody is currently using that type of setup, I could use a couple of photos of your install to help get me on my way. I plan to use either a stick mount or lever next to me as a control. I sat in a firefly with the standard heel brakes and being short in stature, I found them too difficult to operate. Independent brakes are great but not a must have. I would like to try to fabricate something instead of buying commercial to save cost and give this retired guy something to do. I've got a buddy that knows somebody with a Bike shop so I may be able to get some parts reasonable in cost.
--------
Gregg Kaat
2011 Firefly
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=428242#428242
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Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
[quote][b]
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The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy.... |
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herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:01 pm Post subject: Brakes |
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On a Kolb...I would not use the brakes for braking.... Just ground handling and in some emergency situation...and to keep from the embarrassing chore of getting out and turning the plane around...Herb
On 08/11/2014 11:16 AM, Richard Girard wrote:
[quote] Gregg, I've looked at this option a lot and found two sticklers that always stop me. One, bike brakes tend to be one side only. A right caliper, for instance, is darn near impossible to mount on the left side.
Two, the job of the brake is to dissipate heat energy and disk and caliper sizing is done by how much mass you want to stop and hence, how much heat you need to shed. Putting a bike brake on a plane, even an ultralight like the FireFly, is asking it to work with at least twice the mass for which it was designed.
Good luck,
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sat, Aug 9, 2014 at 1:07 PM, t41pilot <t41pilot(at)frontier.com (t41pilot(at)frontier.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "t41pilot" <t41pilot(at)frontier.com (t41pilot(at)frontier.com)>
It's finally time to stick some brakes on my Firefly and I would like to attempt to use mountain bike brakes. If anybody is currently using that type of setup, I could use a couple of photos of your install to help get me on my way. I plan to use either a stick mount or lever next to me as a control. I sat in a firefly with the standard heel brakes and being short in stature, I found them too difficult to operate. Independent brakes are great but not a must have. I would like to try to fabricate something instead of buying commercial to save cost and give this retired guy something to do. I've got a buddy that knows somebody with a Bike shop so I may be able to get some parts reasonable in cost.
--------
Gregg Kaat
2011 Firefly
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=428242#428242
===========
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k">http://forums.matronics.com
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-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
[b]
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:30 pm Post subject: Brakes |
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I haven't tried working with bike brakes on ultralights, but I would think the difference in diameter between a road bike or 29" mountain bike might offset the difference in weight.
I wouldn't worry too much about dissipating heat on an aircraft that lands at 30 mph.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Girard
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 11:16 AM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Brakes
Gregg, I've looked at this option a lot and found two sticklers that always stop me.
One, bike brakes tend to be one side only. A right caliper, for instance, is darn near impossible to mount on the left side.
Two, the job of the brake is to dissipate heat energy and disk and caliper sizing is done by how much mass you want to stop and hence, how much heat you need to shed. Putting a bike brake on a plane, even an ultralight like the FireFly, is asking it to work with at least twice the mass for which it was designed.
Good luck,
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sat, Aug 9, 2014 at 1:07 PM, t41pilot <t41pilot(at)frontier.com (t41pilot(at)frontier.com)> wrote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "t41pilot" <t41pilot(at)frontier.com (t41pilot(at)frontier.com)>
It's finally time to stick some brakes on my Firefly and I would like to attempt to use mountain bike brakes. If anybody is currently using that type of setup, I could use a couple of photos of your install to help get me on my way. I plan to use either a stick mount or lever next to me as a control. I sat in a firefly with the standard heel brakes and being short in stature, I found them too difficult to operate. Independent brakes are great but not a must have. I would like to try to fabricate something instead of buying commercial to save cost and give this retired guy something to do. I've got a buddy that knows somebody with a Bike shop so I may be able to get some parts reasonable in cost.
--------
Gregg Kaat
2011 Firefly
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=428242#428242
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===========
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k">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
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t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><![endif]>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
01234567890123
[quote][b]
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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Ducati SS
Joined: 15 Oct 2009
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:16 am Post subject: Re: Brakes |
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Firefly brakes. Have not taxied with these yet but they work well on the considerable slope of my driveway. Changed to these to save weight, had Black Max which worked extremely well but this setup is 4 to 4.25 lbs. lighter.
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:41 am Post subject: Brakes |
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Very clean and professional installation.
What size tires are you using? They look very small.
Larger tires and low air pressure take a lot of shock load off the gear legs
and airframe.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Firefly brakes. Have not taxied with these yet but they work well on the
considerable slope of my driveway. Changed to these to save weight, had
Black Max which worked extremely well but this setup is 4 to 4.25 lbs.
lighter.
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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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Ducati SS
Joined: 15 Oct 2009
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:10 am Post subject: Re: Brakes |
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I will need to go out to the hanger to check size but yes they are narrow. Given a choice I would much rather have the Black Max rims and tires, landings with those were very gentle. Unfortunately they were to heavy. With the products on the market I do not believe it possible to get much lighter than this setup. I called Travis and requested a new set of gear sockets with the axle tube 9/16" shorter than standard, this saved over 1" of 4130 and axle. All the bolts and axles are Ti, axle nuts are nylock AL, cable splitter is CF, Ti and AL, lever is a 37 gram bicycle unit, the splitter is under the rear of the seat to save running two cables to the lever, caliper carriers are drilled and wheel spacers are plastic. I also made an AL and CF BRS mount saving 1 lb and am currently adapting an auto racing 4 point harness, again saving about 1lb. Longer term I have a Kawasaki TA440 to install which will be about 10 lbs. lighter and allow me to reinstall the Black Max brakes if the narrow tires do not work out. One plus to the current system is a reduction of drag.
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