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Classic Radiators

 
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spcialeffects



Joined: 29 Aug 2012
Posts: 306
Location: Kent

PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:27 am    Post subject: Classic Radiators Reply with quote

So here i am again posting on our forum, to ask questions which can not be answered by the company who made my kit. Before i continue i would like to say that.........if i drove a 1960's BMW and went into BMW's today to ask for a part, for that 50 year old car, they would look on their computer or micro fish and tell me "we dont have that in stock but we can get it for you" or words to that effect. The reason for this is because they have a drawing of it, which can be recalled, to either order one OR make one. HOWEVER after a disappointing phone call to europa today i find out that they do not have technical drawings for the port and stbd radiators that were used on the original classic. In their defence, or rather Karen's defense, i don't expect them to have any on the shelf (which she did have, just one possibly port) but i do expect that they have drawings of them for existing customers who are flying their machines and will, at some point, experience failure.
So to my question. I am building kit 165 a europa classic. I have the original cowls and want to use them as i like the look of them as opposed to the XS style or Nev's new design (no offense nev) BUT europa are unable to supply me with drawings and measurement's so that i can get the two radiators fabricated. I am also fitting a Rotax 914 engine.
Has anyone got drawings for the rads that i can use to get some made? Or has anyone got the rads and wouldn't mind lending them to me to so i can get copies made? Or has someone done something else?
Also staying on the engine theme i would like to fit an inter cooler system and would like to know from others who have this fitted where you got it and rough cost please? Many thanks to all. A Frustrated builder, Frank X.


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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:10 am    Post subject: Classic Radiators Reply with quote

Frank, I a sure one of our Classic members will oblige
with the radiator measurements, and you may even strike
lucky and find someone with spare radiators. Have you
seen Nigel Graham's cowling design which is built round a
914 but incorporates a lot of design features that will
make it significantly more efficient? (Was at the Rally
last year). Certainly if I was starting again I would
abandon the moderately attractive Classic cowlings and get
some of his design, which are truly beautiful ! As to the
intercooler, it seems to me that the 914 works very nicely
as it is and is perfectly matched to the Europa. It also
means that the 914 is immune to carb icing (in my
experience personally , having flown in plenty of carb ice
favouring conditions, and having heard of no convincing
instance of carb icing from anyone else). An intercooler
is going to add weight and a few horsepower, which make
very little difference to top end performance. Improved
propeller characteristics, building light, reducing
external and internal drag all probably have a more
important bearing on performance.
Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ
On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 07:27:12 -0700
"spcialeffects" <spcialeffects(at)aol.com> wrote:
Quote:

<spcialeffects(at)aol.com>

So here i am again posting on our forum, to ask
questions which can not be answered by the company who
made my kit. Before i continue i would like to say
that.........if i drove a 1960's BMW and went into BMW's
today to ask for a part, for that 50 year old car, they
would look on their computer or micro fish and tell me
"we dont have that in stock but we can get it for you" or
words to that effect. The reason for this is because they
have a drawing of it, which can be recalled, to either
order one OR make one. HOWEVER after a disappointing
phone call to europa today i find out that they do not
have technical drawings for the port and stbd radiators
that were used on the original classic. In their defence,
or rather Karen's defense, i don't expect them to have
any on the shelf (which she did have, just one possibly
port) but i do expect that they have drawings of them for
existing customers who are flying their machines and
will, at some point, experience failure.
So to my question. I am building kit 165 a europa
classic. I have the original cowls and want to use them
as i like the look of them as opposed to the XS style or
Nev's new design (no offense nev) BUT europa are unable
to supply me with drawings and measurement's so that i
can get the two radiators fabricated. I am also fitting a
Rotax 914 engine.
Has anyone got drawings for the rads that i
can use to get some made? Or has anyone got the rads and
wouldn't mind lending them to me to so i can get copies
made? Or has someone done something else?
Also staying on the engine theme i would like to
fit an inter cooler system and would like to know from
others who have this fitted where you got it and rough
cost please? Many thanks to all. A Frustrated builder,
Frank X.




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spcialeffects



Joined: 29 Aug 2012
Posts: 306
Location: Kent

PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:22 am    Post subject: Re: Classic Radiators Reply with quote

Has anyone got a photo of Nigel Graham's cowling design?

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pete(at)lawless.info
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:23 am    Post subject: Classic Radiators Reply with quote

Hi Frank

Having spent the morning doing the engine part of my annual I would not
recommend building a Classic front end. Concepts like 'I would like to
fit' are a complete pain as there is so little room to fit anything at
all in the Classic cowls. I do not know how big an inter cooler is but
just finding space in mine for water and oil thermostats suggests it may
not be possible. I should get a look under the hood of a Classic before
you decide. It is almost impossible to see down the back of the engine
let alone get your hand in.

Regards

Pete
G-RMAC Classic 912

On 14/08/14 15:27, spcialeffects wrote:
Quote:


So here i am again posting on our forum, to ask questions which can not be answered by the company who made my kit. Before i continue i would like to say that.........if i drove a 1960's BMW and went into BMW's today to ask for a part, for that 50 year old car, they would look on their computer or micro fish and tell me "we dont have that in stock but we can get it for you" or words to that effect. The reason for this is because they have a drawing of it, which can be recalled, to either order one OR make one. HOWEVER after a disappointing phone call to europa today i find out that they do not have technical drawings for the port and stbd radiators that were used on the original classic. In their defence, or rather Karen's defense, i don't expect them to have any on the shelf (which she did have, just one possibly port) but i do expect that they have drawings of them for existing customers who are flying their machines and will, at some point, experience failure.
So to my question. I am building kit 165 a europa classic. I have the original cowls and want to use them as i like the look of them as opposed to the XS style or Nev's new design (no offense nev) BUT europa are unable to supply me with drawings and measurement's so that i can get the two radiators fabricated. I am also fitting a Rotax 914 engine.
Has anyone got drawings for the rads that i can use to get some made? Or has anyone got the rads and wouldn't mind lending them to me to so i can get copies made? Or has someone done something else?
Also staying on the engine theme i would like to fit an inter cooler system and would like to know from others who have this fitted where you got it and rough cost please? Many thanks to all. A Frustrated builder, Frank X.


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=428438#428438



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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:32 am    Post subject: Classic Radiators Reply with quote

Nigel Graham's contact details are in the front of the
Club magazine and no doubt he would be pleased to advise.
Regards, David
On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 08:22:33 -0700
"spcialeffects" <spcialeffects(at)aol.com> wrote:
Quote:

<spcialeffects(at)aol.com>

Has anyone got a photo of Nigel Graham's cowling design?




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JonathanMilbank



Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 394
Location: Aberdeen area

PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Classic Radiators Reply with quote

I possess new classic port and starboard radiators; not for sale but for when my old ones fail. PM me if interested.

BUT I wholeheartedly agree with the assertion that fitting the classic cowls around the 912 series with associated short engine bearer frame is not the cleverest idea. I recently replaced my 80hp engine with 100hp and heaven help me if ever I need to replace the starter motor.

There isn't room to allow fitting of the longer higher torque starter motor because the frame gets in the way. To replace the starter, I would need to lift out the entire engine and then remove the bearer frame from the engine. That is utterly HELLISH! My frame isn't true and needs persuading.

The longer starter is a really good idea, to help overcome the higher compression and prevent kick-backs. Also the latest CDI units with very retarded spark for the first few seconds are intended for the same purpose.

Fortunately the most helpful and experienced Kevin Dilks of Special Aviation Services suggested that I employ a separate starter button to get past the initial inertia and build momentum for a couple of seconds before turning on the ignition. It works a treat!

However, I digress. I agree that the classic cowling and spinner give a much sexier line to the airframe, compared with the snub-nosed XS look. So if you insist on a sleeker image and want to risk the space limitations of the original design, then I'm willing to consider helping in some way.


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pete(at)lawless.info
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 11:07 pm    Post subject: Classic Radiators Reply with quote

And I forgot to add yesterday the new style mechanical fuel pump won't
fit either! Not enough space between engine and radiator.

Pete

On 15/08/14 01:06, jonathanmilbank wrote:
Quote:


I possess new classic port and starboard radiators; not for sale but for when my old ones fail. PM me if interested.

BUT I wholeheartedly agree with the assertion that fitting the classic cowls around the 912 series with associated short engine bearer frame is not the cleverest idea. I recently replaced my 80hp engine with 100hp and heaven help me if ever I need to replace the starter motor.

There isn't room to allow fitting of the longer higher torque starter motor because the frame gets in the way. To replace the starter, I would need to lift out the entire engine and then remove the bearer frame from the engine. That is utterly HELLISH! My frame isn't true and needs persuading.

The longer starter is a really good idea, to help overcome the higher compression and prevent kick-backs. Also the latest CDI units with very retarded spark for the first few seconds are intended for the same purpose.

Fortunately the most helpful and experienced Kevin Dilks of Special Aviation Services suggested that I employ a separate starter button to get past the initial inertia and build momentum for a couple of seconds before turning on the ignition. It works a treat!

However, I digress. I agree that the classic cowling and spinner give a much sexier line to the airframe, compared with the snub-nosed XS look. So if you insist on a sleeker image and want to risk the space limitations of the original design, then I'm willing to consider helping in some way.


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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=428467#428467



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nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:34 am    Post subject: Classic Radiators Reply with quote

Hi Frank,

Sorry for the late response - I've been "enjoying" the opportunity of
re-plastering the ceiling in the front room and not looked at my mail!

It is true that I have developed a sleek new cowl, but I am creating a
"Custom Special" Europa, so nothing I am doing is compatible with the
standard Europa - so unfortunately, my cowl won't fit the standard XS or
Classic.
Having read your posting, I think that you need to realise that the
Europa is moving into it's twilight years and it is unlikely that the
factory will hold a full spares inventory for the older classic. The
company is not (and never has been) as large as BMW!
The radiators are really not a problem as there are many companies that
can re-create one from a pattern - and most likely for a lot less money
than Europa will charge. Docking Radiators at Siverstone is just one
example.

With regards to an inter-cooler, I am in the process of doing this
myself so have investigated many of the options that you have
considered. It is possible for me because I have developed a
tail-dragger undercarriage that has allowed me to delete all of the
standard Europa undercarriage and engine mounting frames - freeing up
space and saving weight for a firewall mounted water radiator and
inter-cooler
It is true that the standard 914 runs very hot induction air and that a
theoretical benefit could be gained from fitting a suitably sized
inter-cooler to bring down the induction charge temperature. Everything
in aviation is a compromise and the fact is that in order to bring the
temperate down to where you would notice a benefit, would require a
cooler too big (and heavy) to fit into the available space. You also
need to consider routing ducted air to and from the radiator in order to
transfer the heat efficiently - and there is just no space under the
cowls of either of the standard Europa versions.
Out of interest, the 914 only runs with full turbo charging for the last
15% of throttle opening (usually during the climb), for the rest of the
time the wastegate is partially or fully open, so you would be carrying
a large weight penalty for a very little benefit. As mentioned
elsewhere, the 914 runs very nicely so there is a strong argument that
"if it aint broke, don't fix it".

Bob Harrison of this parish has fitted one, but it is very small due to
space limitations - you could ask him if he notices any difference?

I'll be showing my fuselage with cowl and undercarriage at the
forthcoming LAA rally (I'll be next to the Europa Club stand), so if you
are curious, come along for a chat.

Nigel

PS - I'll send you a photo off list.

On 14/08/2014 16:09, David Joyce wrote:
Quote:

<davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>

Frank, I a sure one of our Classic members will oblige with the
radiator measurements, and you may even strike lucky and find someone
with spare radiators. Have you seen Nigel Graham's cowling design
which is built round a 914 but incorporates a lot of design features
that will make it significantly more efficient? (Was at the Rally last
year). Certainly if I was starting again I would abandon the
moderately attractive Classic cowlings and get some of his design,
which are truly beautiful ! As to the intercooler, it seems to me that
the 914 works very nicely as it is and is perfectly matched to the
Europa. It also means that the 914 is immune to carb icing (in my
experience personally , having flown in plenty of carb ice favouring
conditions, and having heard of no convincing instance of carb icing
from anyone else). An intercooler is going to add weight and a few
horsepower, which make very little difference to top end performance.
Improved propeller characteristics, building light, reducing external
and internal drag all probably have a more important bearing on
performance.
Regards, David Joyce G-XSDJ
On Thu, 14 Aug 2014 07:27:12 -0700
"spcialeffects" <spcialeffects(at)aol.com> wrote:
>
> <spcialeffects(at)aol.com>
>
> So here i am again posting on our forum, to ask questions which can
> not be answered by the company who made my kit. Before i continue i
> would like to say that.........if i drove a 1960's BMW and went into
> BMW's today to ask for a part, for that 50 year old car, they would
> look on their computer or micro fish and tell me "we dont have that
> in stock but we can get it for you" or words to that effect. The
> reason for this is because they have a drawing of it, which can be
> recalled, to either order one OR make one. HOWEVER after a
> disappointing phone call to europa today i find out that they do not
> have technical drawings for the port and stbd radiators that were
> used on the original classic. In their defence, or rather Karen's
> defense, i don't expect them to have any on the shelf (which she did
> have, just one possibly port) but i do expect that they have drawings
> of them for existing customers who are flying their machines and
> will, at some point, experience failure. So to my question. I am
> building kit 165 a europa classic. I have the original cowls and want
> to use them as i like the look of them as opposed to the XS style or
> Nev's new design (no offense nev) BUT europa are unable to supply me
> with drawings and measurement's so that i can get the two radiators
> fabricated. I am also fitting a Rotax 914 engine. Has
> anyone got drawings for the rads that i can use to get some made? Or
> has anyone got the rads and wouldn't mind lending them to me to so i
> can get copies made? Or has someone done something else? Also
> staying on the engine theme i would like to fit an inter cooler
> system and would like to know from others who have this fitted where
> you got it and rough cost please? Many thanks to all. A Frustrated
> builder, Frank X.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=428438#428438
>
> Un/Subscription,
> Forums!
> Admin.
>



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h&jeuropa



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 647

PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:08 am    Post subject: Re: Classic Radiators Reply with quote

Frank,

As others have said, a intercooler mostly adds weight and doesn't improve performance. There is a thread on this forum by Frans that discusses that in more detail.

We installed the Europa US intercooler during our build but removed it a couple years ago. It is available if you'd like to purchase it.

Jim & Heather


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JonathanMilbank



Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 394
Location: Aberdeen area

PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:29 am    Post subject: Re: Classic Radiators Reply with quote

Hi Frank,

It's true that the latest fuel pump installed on the 912 series is too long and can't clear the stbd radiator, unless you mount the radiator a little further to the right, but I'm not aware of any good reason why you shouldn't buy and install the original and excellent Pierburg pump, which is shorter.


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spcialeffects



Joined: 29 Aug 2012
Posts: 306
Location: Kent

PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:27 am    Post subject: Re: Classic Radiators Reply with quote

Hi Jonathan, Iv just pm'ed you. I plan to install a 914 turbo engine and I believe that it only uses electric pumps (2 off) so this shouldn't affect me. Anyone else on here who has a classic with classic cowls and a 914?

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