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Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:02 am Post subject: Shunt - Location

Well, I physically mounted mine, along with an ANL current limiter 

yesterday. I placed the shunt above and to the left of the oil and fuel 

pressure sensor block.  I wired it into the Alt line, your option 1. 

Reason is that I am using the VPX box in lieu of a bus. VPX measures the 

current flow from the battery automatically, and my shunt measure flow 

from Alt, and the VPX shows graphically on my Dynon Skyview where the 

electrons come from and where they go. Hooked up shunt last night and 

verified it did exactly as described, by connecting a battery charger in 

front of the shunt, and a second one on the battery.

Really slick.

If you only have one location to measure current, I would do your option 

2, because you want to know whether you are charging the battery or 

drawing from it. Amps from the alternator and total load are less 

important than whether you are discharging your battery.

I don't know with Garmin, but I suspect that like Dynon you can install 

a second shunt if you really want more info.



On 8/30/2014 7:47 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Last night I was thinking about shunt locations and it seems like 

 there are 3 different electrical locations for it.



 1) Connected in the B-Lead (to measure the output of the ALT).



 2) Connected to the battery (to measure the load on the battery; but 

 it misses the contributions of electrons coming from the ALT to the 

 main buss.)



 Location 3 seems to be the most logical spot for me.



 3) Immediately before the main buss.  So the ALT and Battery can be 

 sending electrons to the buss and I'll be measuring them before they 

 enter the buss as they're consumed.  Then I'm getting a measurement of 

 true load (minus the start).

 Where have most of you installed yours?  I really like option 3 but 

 want to make sure I'm not missing something.  I'm also curious to know 

 where yours is installed? I'm thinking of putting it on the aft side 

 of the sub panel, so I can yank a G3X screen and access it.



 Thanks,

 Phil

 *

 *

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

carl.froehlich(at)verizon
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:21 am Post subject: Shunt - Location

A lot of options.Â  Some thoughts:

<![if !supportLists]>Â·         <![endif]>Most shunts cannot handle starting current, so the shunt cannot be install anywhere between the battery and the starting solenoid.

<![if !supportLists]>Â·         <![endif]>While knowing what the non-starting loads are is of value, once measured there is little more to be gained by having them constantly monitored.

<![if !supportLists]>Â·         <![endif]>The load on the alternator however provides an indication of battery health (via charge rate compared with buss voltage).Â  So the shunt on the alternator output does have some value if monitored.

<![if !supportLists]>Â·         <![endif]>On my plane I did not install a current shunt.Â  I find independent voltage monitoring of each battery to be a better indicator of electrical power distribution system health.Â  No issue however if one wants to add current monitoring as well.

 

Carl

 

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phillip Perry

Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2014 10:48 AM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Shunt - Location



 

Last night I was thinking about shunt locations and it seems like there are 3 different electrical locations for it.

 



1) Connected in the B-Lead (to measure the output of the ALT).



 



2) Connected to the battery (to measure the load on the battery; but it misses the contributions of electrons coming from the ALT to the main buss.)



 



Location 3 seems to be the most logical spot for me.



 



3) Immediately before the main buss.  So the ALT and Battery can be sending electrons to the buss and I'll be measuring them before they enter the buss as they're consumed.  Then I'm getting a measurement of true load (minus the start).



 



 



Where have most of you installed yours?  I really like option 3 but want to make sure I'm not missing something.  I'm also curious to know where yours is installed? I'm thinking of putting it on the aft side of the sub panel, so I can yank a G3X screen and access it.



 



Thanks,



Phil



 



 



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  [quote][b]

saylor.dave(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:21 am Post subject: Shunt - Location

Mine is between the B-lead and the main bus. Â Assuming the battery is fully charged, it shows how much power the entire plane is drawing and indicates that the alternator is working. Â Right after start-up it shows a larger draw as the battery gets topped off. Â Then it settles into its normal routine. Â I have a low voltage light, and my engine monitor alerts for hi/low volts and amps.  



--Dave

Single 925, single PP alt, numerous internal batteries



On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 7:47 AM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  [quote]Last night I was thinking about shunt locations and it seems like there are 3 different electrical locations for it.  



1) Connected in the B-Lead (to measure the output of the ALT).

 



2) Connected to the battery (to measure the load on the battery; but it misses the contributions of electrons coming from the ALT to the main buss.)

Location 3 seems to be the most logical spot for me.

   



3) Immediately before the main buss. Â So the ALT and Battery can be sending electrons to the buss and I'll be measuring them before they enter the buss as they're consumed. Â Then I'm getting a measurement of true load (minus the start).

   



Where have most of you installed yours? Â I really like option 3 but want to make sure I'm not missing something. Â I'm also curious to know where yours is installed? I'm thinking of putting it on the aft side of the sub panel, so I can yank a G3X screen and access it.

   



Thanks,

Phil



   	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:22 am Post subject: Shunt - Location

I prefer to know what my battery is doing. If it goes more than a couple of amps negative with the engine running, then you have problems. Also, right after start you will see 25+ amps positive which is a great indication that your alternator is working well enough to recharge your battery while powering the bus. Knowing what the bus is drawing is good for load shedding, but that's all. The one from the alternator is good too, so you will know if it isn't putting out amperage. 

The battery info is my favorite and most informative one. 



Jesse SaintI-TEC, Inc.

jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)

www.itecusa.org

www.mavericklsa.com

C: 352-427-0285

O: 352-465-4545

F: 815-377-3694

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 30, 2014, at 10:47 AM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]Last night I was thinking about shunt locations and it seems like there are 3 different electrical locations for it.



1) Connected in the B-Lead (to measure the output of the ALT).

 



2) Connected to the battery (to measure the load on the battery; but it misses the contributions of electrons coming from the ALT to the main buss.)

Location 3 seems to be the most logical spot for me.

 



3) Immediately before the main buss.  So the ALT and Battery can be sending electrons to the buss and I'll be measuring them before they enter the buss as they're consumed.  Then I'm getting a measurement of true load (minus the start).

 



Where have most of you installed yours?  I really like option 3 but want to make sure I'm not missing something.  I'm also curious to know where yours is installed? I'm thinking of putting it on the aft side of the sub panel, so I can yank a G3X screen and access it.

 



Thanks,

Phil



   	  Quote: 	
		  



D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

//forums.matronics.com

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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[b]

flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:25 am Post subject: Shunt - Location

Mine is in the main battery feed.

       Linn

       

       On 8/30/2014 10:47 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:

     

     [quote]       Last night I was thinking about shunt locations and         it seems like there are 3 different electrical locations for it.         

         

         1) Connected in the B-Lead (to measure the output of the           ALT).

                    

         

         2) Connected to the battery (to measure the load on the           battery; but it misses the contributions of electrons coming           from the ALT to the main buss.)

         

         

         Location 3 seems to be the most logical spot for me.

         

         

         3) Immediately before the main buss. Â So the ALT and           Battery can be sending electrons to the buss and I'll be           measuring them before they enter the buss as they're consumed.           Â Then I'm getting a measurement of true load (minus the           start).

         

         

         

         

         Where have most of you installed yours? Â I really like           option 3 but want to make sure I'm not missing something. Â I'm           also curious to know where yours is installed? I'm thinking of           putting it on the aft side of the sub panel, so I can yank a           G3X screen and access it.

         

         

         Thanks,

         Phil

         

         

         

         

       

        	  Quote: 	
		  

	
       

No virus         found in this message.

         Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

         08/30/14     [b]

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:30 am Post subject: Shunt - Location

It is between the starter solenoid (battery side) and my bus. The alternator is also tied to the bus. 8awg wire in and out. The 8awg ties to the same lug as the 2awg going to the battery. 



Jesse SaintI-TEC, Inc.

jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)

www.itecusa.org

www.mavericklsa.com

C: 352-427-0285

O: 352-465-4545

F: 815-377-3694

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 30, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]Good feedback so far.



Jessie, on your position, I assume it's inline and handles the start without any issue.  (That's where Garmin suggests)



What do you actually see on your digital readouts?  Do you see 0 Amps on a charged battery and typically -1 or so inflight?

 

I'm just trying to understand the difference between what would be seen monitoring a batteries charge vs monitoring a load at the buss input.



Very helpful stuff everyone....  Keep the thoughts coming please.

 



Phil



On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I prefer to know what my battery is doing. If it goes more than a couple of amps negative with the engine running, then you have problems. Also, right after start you will see 25+ amps positive which is a great indication that your alternator is working well enough to recharge your battery while powering the bus. Knowing what the bus is drawing is good for load shedding, but that's all. The one from the alternator is good too, so you will know if it isn't putting out amperage. 

 



The battery info is my favorite and most informative one. 



Jesse SaintI-TEC, Inc.

jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)

www.itecusa.org

 www.mavericklsa.com

C: [url=tel:352-427-0285]352-427-0285[/url]

O: [url=tel:352-465-4545]352-465-4545[/url]

 F: [url=tel:815-377-3694]815-377-3694[/url]

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 30, 2014, at 10:47 AM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  Last night I was thinking about shunt locations and it seems like there are 3 different electrical locations for it.



1) Connected in the B-Lead (to measure the output of the ALT).

  



2) Connected to the battery (to measure the load on the battery; but it misses the contributions of electrons coming from the ALT to the main buss.)

Location 3 seems to be the most logical spot for me.

  



3) Immediately before the main buss.  So the ALT and Battery can be sending electrons to the buss and I'll be measuring them before they enter the buss as they're consumed.  Then I'm getting a measurement of true load (minus the start).

  



Where have most of you installed yours?  I really like option 3 but want to make sure I'm not missing something.  I'm also curious to know where yours is installed? I'm thinking of putting it on the aft side of the sub panel, so I can yank a G3X screen and access it.

  



Thanks,

Phil



  

 	  Quote: 	
		  



D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

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//forums.matronics.com

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

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  	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	








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List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

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[b]

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:14 pm Post subject: Shunt - Location

You really only have two choices. Either between Alternator and buss, or 

between starter relay and buss. The latter tells you what you expect, 

positive charge or discharge. You would have difficulty connecting 

between battery and starter relay because it is #4 wire, requiring 

bigger terminals than the shunt is intended to take, and I don't think 

any shunt is designed for over 100 amps, while starter pulls 2-3 times 

that. So your #2 and #3 necessarily have to be the same place and 

probably will be your choice.

On 8/30/2014 8:33 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Good feedback so far.



 Jessie, on your position, I assume it's inline and handles the start 

 without any issue.  (That's where Garmin suggests)



 What do you actually see on your digital readouts?  Do you see 0 Amps 

 on a charged battery and typically -1 or so inflight?



 I'm just trying to understand the difference between what would be 

 seen monitoring a batteries charge vs monitoring a load at the buss input.



 Very helpful stuff everyone....  Keep the thoughts coming please.



 Phil



 On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com 

 <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com>> wrote:



     I prefer to know what my battery is doing. If it goes more than a

     couple of amps negative with the engine running, then you have

     problems. Also, right after start you will see 25+ amps positive

     which is a great indication that your alternator is working well

     enough to recharge your battery while powering the bus. Knowing

     what the bus is drawing is good for load shedding, but that's all.

     The one from the alternator is good too, so you will know if it

     isn't putting out amperage.



     The battery info is my favorite and most informative one.



     Jesse Saint

     I-TEC, Inc.

     jesse(at)itecusa.org <mailto:jesse(at)itecusa.org>

     www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org>

     www.mavericklsa.com <http://www.mavericklsa.com>

     C: 352-427-0285 <tel:352-427-0285>

     O: 352-465-4545 <tel:352-465-4545>

     F: 815-377-3694 <tel:815-377-3694>



     Sent from my iPhone



     On Aug 30, 2014, at 10:47 AM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com

     <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com>> wrote:



>     Last night I was thinking about shunt locations and it seems like

>     there are 3 different electrical locations for it.

>

>     1) Connected in the B-Lead (to measure the output of the ALT).

>

>     2) Connected to the battery (to measure the load on the battery;

>     but it misses the contributions of electrons coming from the ALT

>     to the main buss.)

>

>     Location 3 seems to be the most logical spot for me.

>

>     3) Immediately before the main buss.  So the ALT and Battery can

>     be sending electrons to the buss and I'll be measuring them

>     before they enter the buss as they're consumed.  Then I'm getting

>     a measurement of true load (minus the start).

>     Where have most of you installed yours?  I really like option 3

>     but want to make sure I'm not missing something.  I'm also

>     curious to know where yours is installed? I'm thinking of putting

>     it on the aft side of the sub panel, so I can yank a G3X screen

>     and access it.

>

>     Thanks,

>     Phil

>     *

>

>     D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>     List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

>     D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>     //forums.matronics.com  <http://forums.matronics.com>

>     D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>     ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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>

>     *



     *



     get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

     tp://forums.matronics.com

     _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



     *

 *

 *

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

philperry9

Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 381

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:32 pm Post subject: Shunt - Location

I'm not sure that's true and it's part of what I'm wrestling with..... Â This is a direct quote from the G3X installation manual and from this text, it leads me to believe that it could be placed anywhere in the #2 wire and it would read the charge or discharge rates of that battery. Â Am I missing something? 

 	  Quote: 	
		  

An alternator ammeter shunt should be installed inline in the alternator output (â€œBâ€ terminal). A battery ammeter shunt should be installed between the battery positive terminal and the battery contactor. Â Depending on the location of the alternator or battery relative to its supported electrical bus, it is typically desirable to install the shunt on the firewall near where the alternator or battery output would normally penetrate the firewall. 



	


On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 7:13 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

  



 You really only have two choices. Either between Alternator and buss, or between starter relay and buss. The latter tells you what you expect, positive charge or discharge. You would have difficulty connecting between battery and starter relay because it is #4 wire, requiring bigger terminals than the shunt is intended to take, and I don't think any shunt is designed for over 100 amps, while starter pulls 2-3 times that. So your #2 and #3 necessarily have to be the same place and probably will be your choice. 

 On 8/30/2014 8:33 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Good feedback so far.

 

 Jessie, on your position, I assume it's inline and handles the start without any issue.Â  (That's where Garmin suggests)

 

 What do you actually see on your digital readouts?Â  Do you see 0 Amps on a charged battery and typically -1 or so inflight?

 

 I'm just trying to understand the difference between what would be seen monitoring a batteries charge vs monitoring a load at the buss input.

 

 Very helpful stuff everyone....Â  Keep the thoughts coming please.

 

 Phil

 

 

 



 On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com) <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)>> wrote:

  

 Â  Â  I prefer to know what my battery is doing. If it goes more than a

 Â  Â  couple of amps negative with the engine running, then you have

 Â  Â  problems. Also, right after start you will see 25+ amps positive

 Â  Â  which is a great indication that your alternator is working well

 Â  Â  enough to recharge your battery while powering the bus. Knowing

 Â  Â  what the bus is drawing is good for load shedding, but that's all.

 Â  Â  The one from the alternator is good too, so you will know if it

 Â  Â  isn't putting out amperage.

 

 Â  Â  The battery info is my favorite and most informative one.

 

 Â  Â  Jesse Saint

 Â  Â  I-TEC, Inc.



 Â  Â  jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org) <mailto:jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)>

 Â  Â  www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org>

 Â  Â  www.mavericklsa.com <http://www.mavericklsa.com>

 Â  Â  C: [url=tel:352-427-0285]352-427-0285[/url] <tel:[url=tel:352-427-0285]352-427-0285[/url]>

 Â  Â  O: [url=tel:352-465-4545]352-465-4545[/url] <tel:[url=tel:352-465-4545]352-465-4545[/url]>

 Â  Â  F: [url=tel:815-377-3694]815-377-3694[/url] <tel:[url=tel:815-377-3694]815-377-3694[/url]>

 

 Â  Â  Sent from my iPhone

 

 Â  Â  On Aug 30, 2014, at 10:47 AM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)



 Â  Â  <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)>> wrote:

 

  	  Quote: 	
		   Â  Â  Last night I was thinking about shunt locations and it seems like

 Â  Â  there are 3 different electrical locations for it.

 

 Â  Â  1) Connected in the B-Lead (to measure the output of the ALT).

 

 Â  Â  2) Connected to the battery (to measure the load on the battery;

 Â  Â  but it misses the contributions of electrons coming from the ALT

 Â  Â  to the main buss.)

 

 Â  Â  Location 3 seems to be the most logical spot for me.

 

 Â  Â  3) Immediately before the main buss.Â  So the ALT and Battery can

 Â  Â  be sending electrons to the buss and I'll be measuring them

 Â  Â  before they enter the buss as they're consumed.Â  Then I'm getting

 Â  Â  a measurement of true load (minus the start).

 

 

 Â  Â  Where have most of you installed yours?Â  I really like option 3

 Â  Â  but want to make sure I'm not missing something.Â  I'm also

 Â  Â  curious to know where yours is installed? I'm thinking of putting

 Â  Â  it on the aft side of the sub panel, so I can yank a G3X screen

 Â  Â  and access it.

 

 Â  Â  Thanks,

 Â  Â  Phil

 

 

 Â  Â  *

 

 Â  Â  D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

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 Â  Â  ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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 Â  Â  *

 	
 

 Â  Â  *

 

 Â  Â  get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 Â  Â  tp://forums.matronics.com

 Â  Â  _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 



 Â  Â  *

 

 

 *

 

 

 *

 	
 

 

 ====================================

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 ====================================

  FORUMS -

 _blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 b Site -

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 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

 

 

 

 



[b]

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:05 pm Post subject: Shunt - Location

I suppose there might be some aircraft with battery on the firewall 

where you might do that, but it makes no sense.

What information are you going to get by having the shunt at the 

battery? So you have a shunt that can handle the current, it will have 

less resolution of low current movement. (all shunts are designed for 

0-50mv, where 50 mv equals full scale). The only current you see at the 

battery besides what goes to the buss is the starter and anything else 

that you bypass the buss for some reason.

You really don't want to be splicing #2 or #4 wire to install a shunt. 

#8 from starter relay to the buss will tell you all the information you 

want.

I don't have a clue why Garmin wrote that. I'm not aware of any 

certified aircraft that do it that way.



On 8/30/2014 5:32 PM, Phillip Perry wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I'm not sure that's true and it's part of what I'm wrestling with..... 

  This is a direct quote from the G3X installation manual and from this 

 text, it leads me to believe that it could be placed anywhere in the 

 #2 wire and it would read the charge or discharge rates of that 

 battery.  Am I missing something?



     An alternator ammeter shunt should be installed inline in the

     alternator output (â€œBâ€ terminal). */A battery ammeter shunt should

     be installed between the battery positive terminal and the battery

     contactor./*  Depending on the location of the alternator or

     battery relative to its supported electrical bus, it is typically

     desirable to install the shunt on the firewall near where the

     alternator or battery output would normally penetrate the firewall.



 On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 7:13 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com 

 <mailto:kellym(at)aviating.com>> wrote:



     

     <kellym(at)aviating.com <mailto:kellym(at)aviating.com>>



     You really only have two choices. Either between Alternator and

     buss, or between starter relay and buss. The latter tells you what

     you expect, positive charge or discharge. You would have

     difficulty connecting between battery and starter relay because it

     is #4 wire, requiring bigger terminals than the shunt is intended

     to take, and I don't think any shunt is designed for over 100

     amps, while starter pulls 2-3 times that. So your #2 and #3

     necessarily have to be the same place and probably will be your

     choice.



     On 8/30/2014 8:33 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:



         Good feedback so far.



         Jessie, on your position, I assume it's inline and handles the

         start without any issue.  (That's where Garmin suggests)



         What do you actually see on your digital readouts?  Do you see

         0 Amps on a charged battery and typically -1 or so inflight?



         I'm just trying to understand the difference between what

         would be seen monitoring a batteries charge vs monitoring a

         load at the buss input.



         Very helpful stuff everyone....  Keep the thoughts coming please.



         Phil



         On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Jesse Saint

         <jesse(at)saintaviation.com <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com>

         <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com

         <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com>>> wrote:



             I prefer to know what my battery is doing. If it goes more

         than a

             couple of amps negative with the engine running, then you have

             problems. Also, right after start you will see 25+ amps

         positive

             which is a great indication that your alternator is

         working well

             enough to recharge your battery while powering the bus.

         Knowing

             what the bus is drawing is good for load shedding, but

         that's all.

             The one from the alternator is good too, so you will know

         if it

             isn't putting out amperage.



             The battery info is my favorite and most informative one.



             Jesse Saint

             I-TEC, Inc.

         jesse(at)itecusa.org <mailto:jesse(at)itecusa.org>

         <mailto:jesse(at)itecusa.org <mailto:jesse(at)itecusa.org>>

         www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org> <http://www.itecusa.org>

         www.mavericklsa.com <http://www.mavericklsa.com>

         <http://www.mavericklsa.com>

             C: 352-427-0285 <tel:352-427-0285> <tel:352-427-0285

         <tel:352-427-0285>>

             O: 352-465-4545 <tel:352-465-4545> <tel:352-465-4545

         <tel:352-465-4545>>

             F: 815-377-3694 <tel:815-377-3694> <tel:815-377-3694

         <tel:815-377-3694>>

             Sent from my iPhone



             On Aug 30, 2014, at 10:47 AM, Phillip Perry

         <philperry9(at)gmail.com <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com>

             <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com

         <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com>>> wrote:



                 Last night I was thinking about shunt locations and it

             seems like

                 there are 3 different electrical locations for it.



                 1) Connected in the B-Lead (to measure the output of

             the ALT).



                 2) Connected to the battery (to measure the load on

             the battery;

                 but it misses the contributions of electrons coming

             from the ALT

                 to the main buss.)



                 Location 3 seems to be the most logical spot for me.



                 3) Immediately before the main buss.  So the ALT and

             Battery can

                 be sending electrons to the buss and I'll be measuring

             them

                 before they enter the buss as they're consumed. Then

             I'm getting

                 a measurement of true load (minus the start).

                 Where have most of you installed yours?  I really like

             option 3

                 but want to make sure I'm not missing something. I'm also

                 curious to know where yours is installed? I'm thinking

             of putting

                 it on the aft side of the sub panel, so I can yank a

             G3X screen

                 and access it.



                 Thanks,

                 Phil

                 *



                

             D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

                 List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

                

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                 //forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>

             <http://forums.matronics.com>



                

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 *

 *

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:35 pm Post subject: Shunt - Location

If the #2 wire goes to the starter       solenoid and the buss is connected to that same point with #8 then       the shunt can be placed in the #8 line and not carry starter       current.Â  Then the shunt will read the charge current minus the       load current.Â  It all depends on what data you're interested in.

       I want to know the health of my alternator and my battery ..... I       don't care what the 'load' is.Â  Putting the shunt in the buss to       battery link gives me what I am looking for.Â  Also, a voltmeter       .... seems like every accessory has one in it .... will tell you       the other half of the data you should have.

       

       I agree with Kelly .... you don't want anything in that #2 cable       between the battery and the starter .... except the starter       solenoid and master solenoid. Anyway a 300+A shunt is pricey.

       Linn

       

       On 8/30/2014 8:32 PM, Phillip Perry wrote:

     

     [quote]       I'm not sure that's true and it's part of what I'm         wrestling with..... Â This is a direct quote from the G3X         installation manual and from this text, it leads me to believe         that it could be placed anywhere in the #2 wire and it would         read the charge or discharge rates of that battery. Â Am I         missing something?                    

           

         

          	  Quote: 	
		                                         

An alternator ammeter shunt should be                 installed inline in the alternator output (â€œBâ€                 terminal). A battery                       ammeter shunt should be installed between the                       battery positive terminal and the battery                       contactor. Â Depending on the                 location of the alternator or battery relative to its                 supported electrical bus, it is typically desirable to                 install the shunt on the firewall near where the                 alternator or battery output would normally penetrate                 the firewall.             

           

         	
       

       

         

         On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 7:13 PM, Kelly           McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>           wrote:

            	  Quote: 	
		               --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly               McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

               

             

             You really only have two choices. Either between Alternator             and buss, or between starter relay and buss. The latter             tells you what you expect, positive charge or discharge. You             would have difficulty connecting between battery and starter             relay because it is #4 wire, requiring bigger terminals than             the shunt is intended to take, and I don't think any shunt             is designed for over 100 amps, while starter pulls 2-3 times             that. So your #2 and #3 necessarily have to be the same             place and probably will be your choice.                            

               On 8/30/2014 8:33 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:

             

              	  Quote: 	
		                                  Good feedback so far.

                 

                 Jessie, on your position, I assume it's inline and                 handles the start without any issue.Â  (That's where                 Garmin suggests)

                 

                 What do you actually see on your digital readouts?Â  Do                 you see 0 Amps on a charged battery and typically -1 or                 so inflight?

                 

                 I'm just trying to understand the difference between                 what would be seen monitoring a batteries charge vs                 monitoring a load at the buss input.

                 

                 Very helpful stuff everyone....Â  Keep the thoughts                 coming please.

                 

                 Phil

                 

                 

                 

               

                                On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)                 <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)>>                 wrote:

                 

                 Â  Â  I prefer to know what my battery is doing. If it                 goes more than a

                 Â  Â  couple of amps negative with the engine running,                 then you have

                 Â  Â  problems. Also, right after start you will see 25+                 amps positive

                 Â  Â  which is a great indication that your alternator is                 working well

                 Â  Â  enough to recharge your battery while powering the                 bus. Knowing

                 Â  Â  what the bus is drawing is good for load shedding,                 but that's all.

                 Â  Â  The one from the alternator is good too, so you will                 know if it

                 Â  Â  isn't putting out amperage.

                 

                 Â  Â  The battery info is my favorite and most informative                 one.

                 

                 Â  Â  Jesse Saint

                 Â  Â  I-TEC, Inc.

               

               Â  Â  jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)               <mailto:jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)>

               Â  Â  www.itecusa.org               <http://www.itecusa.org>

               Â  Â  www.mavericklsa.com               <http://www.mavericklsa.com>

               Â  Â  C: [url=tel:352-427-0285]352-427-0285[/url]               <tel:[url=tel:352-427-0285]352-427-0285[/url]>

               Â  Â  O: [url=tel:352-465-4545]352-465-4545[/url]               <tel:[url=tel:352-465-4545]352-465-4545[/url]>

               Â  Â  F: [url=tel:815-377-3694]815-377-3694[/url]               <tel:[url=tel:815-377-3694]815-377-3694[/url]>               

                 

                 Â  Â  Sent from my iPhone

                 

                 Â  Â  On Aug 30, 2014, at 10:47 AM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)

               

               Â  Â  <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)>>               wrote:

               

                	  Quote: 	
		                                      Â  Â  Last night I was thinking about shunt locations                   and it seems like

                   Â  Â  there are 3 different electrical locations for it.

                   

                   Â  Â  1) Connected in the B-Lead (to measure the output                   of the ALT).

                   

                   Â  Â  2) Connected to the battery (to measure the load                   on the battery;

                   Â  Â  but it misses the contributions of electrons                   coming from the ALT

                   Â  Â  to the main buss.)

                   

                   Â  Â  Location 3 seems to be the most logical spot for                   me.

                   

                   Â  Â  3) Immediately before the main buss.Â  So the ALT                   and Battery can

                   Â  Â  be sending electrons to the buss and I'll be                   measuring them

                   Â  Â  before they enter the buss as they're consumed.Â                    Then I'm getting

                   Â  Â  a measurement of true load (minus the start).

                   

                   

                   Â  Â  Where have most of you installed yours?Â  I really                   like option 3

                   Â  Â  but want to make sure I'm not missing something.Â                    I'm also

                   Â  Â  curious to know where yours is installed? I'm                   thinking of putting

                   Â  Â  it on the aft side of the sub panel, so I can yank                   a G3X screen

                   Â  Â  and access it.

                   

                   Â  Â  Thanks,

                   Â  Â  Phil

                   

                   

                   Â  Â  *

                   

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                   Â  Â  List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

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                 Â  Â  //forums.matronics.comÂ                  <http://forums.matronics.com>                 

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No virus         found in this message.

         Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

         08/30/14     [b]

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:42 pm Post subject: Shunt - Location

I agree. From your earlier email, though, there are actually all 3 choices. You could see how much the bus is using by connecting the alternator to the battery side of the shunt and the bus to the other side. As I mentioned earlier, though, this doesn't give valuable information compared to the other two options. 



Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

352-427-0285

jesse(at)saintaviation.com



Sent from my iPad



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Aug 30, 2014, at 9:04 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 I suppose there might be some aircraft with battery on the firewall where you might do that, but it makes no sense.

 What information are you going to get by having the shunt at the battery? So you have a shunt that can handle the current, it will have less resolution of low current movement. (all shunts are designed for 0-50mv, where 50 mv equals full scale). The only current you see at the battery besides what goes to the buss is the starter and anything else that you bypass the buss for some reason.

 You really don't want to be splicing #2 or #4 wire to install a shunt. #8 from starter relay to the buss will tell you all the information you want.

 I don't have a clue why Garmin wrote that. I'm not aware of any certified aircraft that do it that way.

 

> On 8/30/2014 5:32 PM, Phillip Perry wrote:

> I'm not sure that's true and it's part of what I'm wrestling with.....  This is a direct quote from the G3X installation manual and from this text, it leads me to believe that it could be placed anywhere in the #2 wire and it would read the charge or discharge rates of that battery.  Am I missing something?

> 

>    An alternator ammeter shunt should be installed inline in the

>    alternator output (â€œBâ€ terminal). */A battery ammeter shunt should

>    be installed between the battery positive terminal and the battery

>    contactor./*  Depending on the location of the alternator or

>    battery relative to its supported electrical bus, it is typically

>    desirable to install the shunt on the firewall near where the

>    alternator or battery output would normally penetrate the firewall.

> 

> 

> 

> On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 7:13 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com <mailto:kellym(at)aviating.com>> wrote:

> 

>    

>    <kellym(at)aviating.com <mailto:kellym(at)aviating.com>>

> 

>    You really only have two choices. Either between Alternator and

>    buss, or between starter relay and buss. The latter tells you what

>    you expect, positive charge or discharge. You would have

>    difficulty connecting between battery and starter relay because it

>    is #4 wire, requiring bigger terminals than the shunt is intended

>    to take, and I don't think any shunt is designed for over 100

>    amps, while starter pulls 2-3 times that. So your #2 and #3

>    necessarily have to be the same place and probably will be your

>    choice.

> 

>    On 8/30/2014 8:33 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:

> 

>        Good feedback so far.

> 

>        Jessie, on your position, I assume it's inline and handles the

>        start without any issue.  (That's where Garmin suggests)

> 

>        What do you actually see on your digital readouts?  Do you see

>        0 Amps on a charged battery and typically -1 or so inflight?

> 

>        I'm just trying to understand the difference between what

>        would be seen monitoring a batteries charge vs monitoring a

>        load at the buss input.

> 

>        Very helpful stuff everyone....  Keep the thoughts coming please.

> 

>        Phil

> 

> 

> 

>        On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Jesse Saint

>        <jesse(at)saintaviation.com <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com>

>        <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com

>        <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com>>> wrote:

> 

>            I prefer to know what my battery is doing. If it goes more

>        than a

>            couple of amps negative with the engine running, then you have

>            problems. Also, right after start you will see 25+ amps

>        positive

>            which is a great indication that your alternator is

>        working well

>            enough to recharge your battery while powering the bus.

>        Knowing

>            what the bus is drawing is good for load shedding, but

>        that's all.

>            The one from the alternator is good too, so you will know

>        if it

>            isn't putting out amperage.

> 

>            The battery info is my favorite and most informative one.

> 

>            Jesse Saint

>            I-TEC, Inc.

>        jesse(at)itecusa.org <mailto:jesse(at)itecusa.org>

>        <mailto:jesse(at)itecusa.org <mailto:jesse(at)itecusa.org>>

>        www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org> <http://www.itecusa.org>

>        www.mavericklsa.com <http://www.mavericklsa.com>

>        <http://www.mavericklsa.com>

>            C: 352-427-0285 <tel:352-427-0285> <tel:352-427-0285

>        <tel:352-427-0285>>

>            O: 352-465-4545 <tel:352-465-4545> <tel:352-465-4545

>        <tel:352-465-4545>>

>            F: 815-377-3694 <tel:815-377-3694> <tel:815-377-3694

>        <tel:815-377-3694>>

> 

> 

>            Sent from my iPhone

> 

>            On Aug 30, 2014, at 10:47 AM, Phillip Perry

>        <philperry9(at)gmail.com <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com>

>            <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com

>        <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com>>> wrote:

> 

>                Last night I was thinking about shunt locations and it

>            seems like

>                there are 3 different electrical locations for it.

> 

>                1) Connected in the B-Lead (to measure the output of

>            the ALT).

> 

>                2) Connected to the battery (to measure the load on

>            the battery;

>                but it misses the contributions of electrons coming

>            from the ALT

>                to the main buss.)

> 

>                Location 3 seems to be the most logical spot for me.

> 

>                3) Immediately before the main buss.  So the ALT and

>            Battery can

>                be sending electrons to the buss and I'll be measuring

>            them

>                before they enter the buss as they're consumed. Then

>            I'm getting

>                a measurement of true load (minus the start).

> 

> 

>                Where have most of you installed yours?  I really like

>            option 3

>                but want to make sure I'm not missing something. I'm also

>                curious to know where yours is installed? I'm thinking

>            of putting

>                it on the aft side of the sub panel, so I can yank a

>            G3X screen

>                and access it.

> 

>                Thanks,

>                Phil

> 

> 

>                *

> 

>                           D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>                List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

>                           D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>                //forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>

>            <http://forums.matronics.com>

> 

>                           D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>                ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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> 

>                *

> 

> 

>            *

> 

>            get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

>            tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>

>            _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

> 

>            *

> 

> 

>        *

> 

> 

>        *

> 

> 

> 

>    ====================================

>    -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

>    ====================================

>    FORUMS -

>    _blank">http://forums.matronics.com

>    ====================================

>    b Site -

>              -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

>    target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

>    ====================================

> 

> 

> 

> 

> *

> 

> 

> *

philperry9

Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 381

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:42 pm Post subject: Shunt - Location

I dug my Aeroelectric book out of one of our moving boxes and I'll try to

read it with a cup of coffee in the morning.



I'm mostly interested in understanding charge or discharge rates.  I can

build a reference load chart (by running on battery only during a test

session) to determine exactly what each piece of equipment pulls and how I

might be able to shed load if needed.



Phil



On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 8:04 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:



[quote] 



 I suppose there might be some aircraft with battery on the firewall where

 you might do that, but it makes no sense.

 What information are you going to get by having the shunt at the battery?

 So you have a shunt that can handle the current, it will have less

 resolution of low current movement. (all shunts are designed for 0-50mv,

 where 50 mv equals full scale). The only current you see at the battery

 besides what goes to the buss is the starter and anything else that you

 bypass the buss for some reason.

 You really don't want to be splicing #2 or #4 wire to install a shunt. #8

 from starter relay to the buss will tell you all the information you want

flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:11 pm Post subject: Shunt - Location

Knowing which piece draws X amps is a       good exercise, but what do you do with the data?Â  With modern       equipment the load is comparatively small and with the transponder       and strobes off a good battery should outlast your fuel supply.

       

       Alternator states are typically good charge (depending on battery       level) or no charge.Â  A slipping belt will be in-between.Â        Batteries are more insidious .... they fail slowly at first and       then gather steam towards useless.Â  A good battery health       indicator is the battery voltage just before start ..... how much       did it lose since you last flew?Â  I have a desulfator trickle       charger that I hook up after each flight so my 'settling time' is       rather short.

       IMHO, of course!

       Linn

       

       On 8/30/2014 9:42 PM, Phillip Perry wrote:

     

     [quote]       I dug my Aeroelectric book out of one of our moving         boxes and I'll try to read it with a cup of coffee in the         morning.         

         

         I'm mostly interested in understanding charge or discharge           rates. Â I can build a reference load chart (by running on           battery only during a test session) to determine exactly what           each piece of equipment pulls and how I might be able to shed           load if needed.

         

         

         Phil

         

         

       

       

         

         On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 8:04 PM, Kelly           McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>           wrote:

            	  Quote: 	
		               --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly               McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

               

             

             I suppose there might be some aircraft with battery on the             firewall where you might do that, but it makes no sense.

             What information are you going to get by having the shunt at             the battery? So you have a shunt that can handle the             current, it will have less resolution of low current             movement. (all shunts are designed for 0-50mv, where 50 mv             equals full scale). The only current you see at the battery             besides what goes to the buss is the starter and anything             else that you bypass the buss for some reason.

             You really don't want to be splicing #2 or #4 wire to             install a shunt. #8 from starter relay to the buss will tell             you all the information you want.

             I don't have a clue why Garmin wrote that. I'm not aware of             any certified aircraft that do it that way.             

               

               On 8/30/2014 5:32 PM, Phillip Perry wrote:

             

              	  Quote: 	
		                                  I'm not sure that's true and it's part of what I'm                 wrestling with.....Â  This is a direct quote from the G3X                 installation manual and from this text, it leads me to                 believe that it could be placed anywhere in the #2 wire                 and it would read the charge or discharge rates of that                 battery.Â  Am I missing something?

                 

                 Â  Â  An alternator ammeter shunt should be installed                 inline in the

               

               Â  Â  alternator output (â€œBâ€ terminal). */A battery ammeter               shunt should               

                 Â  Â  be installed between the battery positive terminal                 and the battery

               

               Â  Â  contactor./*Â  Depending on the location of the               alternator or               

                 Â  Â  battery relative to its supported electrical bus, it                 is typically

                 Â  Â  desirable to install the shunt on the firewall near                 where the

                 Â  Â  alternator or battery output would normally                 penetrate the firewall.

                 

                 

                 

               

                                On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 7:13 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)                 <mailto:kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>>                 wrote:

                 

                 Â  Â  --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen

               

               Â  Â  <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)               <mailto:kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>>               

                 

                 Â  Â  You really only have two choices. Either between                 Alternator and

                 Â  Â  buss, or between starter relay and buss. The latter                 tells you what

                 Â  Â  you expect, positive charge or discharge. You would                 have

                 Â  Â  difficulty connecting between battery and starter                 relay because it

                 Â  Â  is #4 wire, requiring bigger terminals than the                 shunt is intended

                 Â  Â  to take, and I don't think any shunt is designed for                 over 100

                 Â  Â  amps, while starter pulls 2-3 times that. So your #2                 and #3

                 Â  Â  necessarily have to be the same place and probably                 will be your

                 Â  Â  choice.

                 

                 Â  Â  On 8/30/2014 8:33 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Good feedback so far.

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Jessie, on your position, I assume it's inline                 and handles the

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  start without any issue.Â  (That's where Garmin                 suggests)

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  What do you actually see on your digital                 readouts?Â  Do you see

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  0 Amps on a charged battery and typically -1 or                 so inflight?

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  I'm just trying to understand the difference                 between what

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  would be seen monitoring a batteries charge vs                 monitoring a

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  load at the buss input.

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Very helpful stuff everyone....Â  Keep the                 thoughts coming please.

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Phil

                 

                 

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Jesse Saint

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  <jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)                 <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)>

               

               Â  Â  Â  Â  <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)               

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)>>>                 wrote:

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  I prefer to know what my battery is doing.                 If it goes more

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  than a

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  couple of amps negative with the engine                 running, then you have

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  problems. Also, right after start you will                 see 25+ amps

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  positive

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  which is a great indication that your                 alternator is

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  working well

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  enough to recharge your battery while                 powering the bus.

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Knowing

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  what the bus is drawing is good for load                 shedding, but

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  that's all.

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  The one from the alternator is good too, so                 you will know

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  if it

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  isn't putting out amperage.

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  The battery info is my favorite and most                 informative one.

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Jesse Saint

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  I-TEC, Inc.

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)                 <mailto:jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)>

               

               Â  Â  Â  Â  <mailto:jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)               <mailto:jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)>>

               Â  Â  Â  Â  www.itecusa.org               <http://www.itecusa.org>               <http://www.itecusa.org>                                

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  www.mavericklsa.com                 <http://www.mavericklsa.com>

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  <http://www.mavericklsa.com>

               

               Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  C: [url=tel:352-427-0285]352-427-0285[/url] <tel:[url=tel:352-427-0285]352-427-0285[/url]>               <tel:[url=tel:352-427-0285]352-427-0285[/url]

               Â  Â  Â  Â  <tel:[url=tel:352-427-0285]352-427-0285[/url]>>

               Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  O: [url=tel:352-465-4545]352-465-4545[/url] <tel:[url=tel:352-465-4545]352-465-4545[/url]>               <tel:[url=tel:352-465-4545]352-465-4545[/url]

               Â  Â  Â  Â  <tel:[url=tel:352-465-4545]352-465-4545[/url]>>

               Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  F: [url=tel:815-377-3694]815-377-3694[/url] <tel:[url=tel:815-377-3694]815-377-3694[/url]>               <tel:[url=tel:815-377-3694]815-377-3694[/url]                                

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  <tel:[url=tel:815-377-3694]815-377-3694[/url]>>

                 

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Sent from my iPhone

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  On Aug 30, 2014, at 10:47 AM, Phillip Perry

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)                 <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)>

               

               Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)                                

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)>>>                   wrote:

                   

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Last night I was thinking about shunt                   locations and it

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  seems like

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  there are 3 different electrical                   locations for it.

                   

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  1) Connected in the B-Lead (to measure                   the output of

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  the ALT).

                   

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  2) Connected to the battery (to                   measure the load on

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  the battery;

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  but it misses the contributions of                   electrons coming

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  from the ALT

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  to the main buss.)

                   

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Location 3 seems to be the most                   logical spot for me.

                   

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  3) Immediately before the main buss.Â                    So the ALT and

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Battery can

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  be sending electrons to the buss and                   I'll be measuring

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  them

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  before they enter the buss as they're                   consumed. Then

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  I'm getting

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  a measurement of true load (minus the                   start).

                   

                   

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Where have most of you installed                   yours?Â  I really like

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  option 3

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  but want to make sure I'm not missing                   something. I'm also

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  curious to know where yours is                   installed? I'm thinking

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  of putting

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  it on the aft side of the sub panel,                   so I can yank a

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  G3X screen

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  and access it.

                   

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Thanks,

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Phil

                   

                   

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  *

                   

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â                    Â D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

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                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  //forums.matronics.com                   <http://forums.matronics.com>

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  <http://forums.matronics.com>

                   

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â                    Â D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  *

                   

                   

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  *

                   

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

                 

               

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                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

                 

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         08/30/14     [b]

philperry9

Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 381

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:21 pm Post subject: Shunt - Location

I think I just sorted it out in my head. Â I was thinking that the #8 B-Lead, #2 Battery, and #8 Buss feed wires would all bind at the battery-side post of the starter solenoid. Â  This would mean I have a single feed to the 'real' buss bar.

 

I'm now 99% sure that's not the case. Â I need to look at it closer, but I believe I've got a connection for the B-Lead on one end of the buss and on the other end of the buss I have a battery connection. Â That makes perfect sense when someone says to put it "in the battery lead". 



I won't be back at the hangar until Tuesday, but I'm pretty sure I just figured it out. Â Sometimes I'm dense!

Phil



 



On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 9:10 PM, Linn Walters <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com (flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com)> wrote:

[quote]                    Knowing which piece draws X amps is a       good exercise, but what do you do with the data?Â  With modern       equipment the load is comparatively small and with the transponder       and strobes off a good battery should outlast your fuel supply.

       

       Alternator states are typically good charge (depending on battery       level) or no charge.Â  A slipping belt will be in-between.Â        Batteries are more insidious .... they fail slowly at first and       then gather steam towards useless.Â  A good battery health       indicator is the battery voltage just before start ..... how much       did it lose since you last flew?Â  I have a desulfator trickle       charger that I hook up after each flight so my 'settling time' is       rather short.

       IMHO, of course!

       Linn

       

       On 8/30/2014 9:42 PM, Phillip Perry wrote:

     



      	  Quote: 	
		         I dug my Aeroelectric book out of one of our moving         boxes and I'll try to read it with a cup of coffee in the         morning.         

         

         I'm mostly interested in understanding charge or discharge           rates. Â I can build a reference load chart (by running on           battery only during a test session) to determine exactly what           each piece of equipment pulls and how I might be able to shed           load if needed.

         

         

         

Phil

         

         

       

       

         

         On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 8:04 PM, Kelly           McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>           wrote:

            	  Quote: 	
		               --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly               McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

               

             

             I suppose there might be some aircraft with battery on the             firewall where you might do that, but it makes no sense.

             What information are you going to get by having the shunt at             the battery? So you have a shunt that can handle the             current, it will have less resolution of low current             movement. (all shunts are designed for 0-50mv, where 50 mv             equals full scale). The only current you see at the battery             besides what goes to the buss is the starter and anything             else that you bypass the buss for some reason.

             You really don't want to be splicing #2 or #4 wire to             install a shunt. #8 from starter relay to the buss will tell             you all the information you want.

             I don't have a clue why Garmin wrote that. I'm not aware of             any certified aircraft that do it that way.             

               

               On 8/30/2014 5:32 PM, Phillip Perry wrote:

             

              	  Quote: 	
		                                  I'm not sure that's true and it's part of what I'm                 wrestling with.....Â  This is a direct quote from the G3X                 installation manual and from this text, it leads me to                 believe that it could be placed anywhere in the #2 wire                 and it would read the charge or discharge rates of that                 battery.Â  Am I missing something?

                 

                 Â  Â  An alternator ammeter shunt should be installed                 inline in the

               

               Â  Â  alternator output (â€œBâ€ terminal). */A battery ammeter               shunt should               

                 Â  Â  be installed between the battery positive terminal                 and the battery

               

               Â  Â  contactor./*Â  Depending on the location of the               alternator or               

                 Â  Â  battery relative to its supported electrical bus, it                 is typically

                 Â  Â  desirable to install the shunt on the firewall near                 where the

                 Â  Â  alternator or battery output would normally                 penetrate the firewall.

                 

                 

                 

               

                                On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 7:13 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)                 <mailto:kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>>                 wrote:

                 

                 Â  Â  --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen

               

               Â  Â  <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)               <mailto:kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>>               

                 

                 Â  Â  You really only have two choices. Either between                 Alternator and

                 Â  Â  buss, or between starter relay and buss. The latter                 tells you what

                 Â  Â  you expect, positive charge or discharge. You would                 have

                 Â  Â  difficulty connecting between battery and starter                 relay because it

                 Â  Â  is #4 wire, requiring bigger terminals than the                 shunt is intended

                 Â  Â  to take, and I don't think any shunt is designed for                 over 100

                 Â  Â  amps, while starter pulls 2-3 times that. So your #2                 and #3

                 Â  Â  necessarily have to be the same place and probably                 will be your

                 Â  Â  choice.

                 

                 Â  Â  On 8/30/2014 8:33 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Good feedback so far.

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Jessie, on your position, I assume it's inline                 and handles the

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  start without any issue.Â  (That's where Garmin                 suggests)

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  What do you actually see on your digital                 readouts?Â  Do you see

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  0 Amps on a charged battery and typically -1 or                 so inflight?

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  I'm just trying to understand the difference                 between what

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  would be seen monitoring a batteries charge vs                 monitoring a

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  load at the buss input.

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Very helpful stuff everyone....Â  Keep the                 thoughts coming please.

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Phil

                 

                 

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Jesse Saint

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  <jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)                 <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)>

               

               Â  Â  Â  Â  <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)               

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)>>>                 wrote:

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  I prefer to know what my battery is doing.                 If it goes more

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  than a

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  couple of amps negative with the engine                 running, then you have

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  problems. Also, right after start you will                 see 25+ amps

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  positive

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  which is a great indication that your                 alternator is

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  working well

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  enough to recharge your battery while                 powering the bus.

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Knowing

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  what the bus is drawing is good for load                 shedding, but

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  that's all.

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  The one from the alternator is good too, so                 you will know

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  if it

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  isn't putting out amperage.

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  The battery info is my favorite and most                 informative one.

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Jesse Saint

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  I-TEC, Inc.

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)                 <mailto:jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)>

               

               Â  Â  Â  Â  <mailto:jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)               <mailto:jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)>>

               Â  Â  Â  Â  www.itecusa.org               <http://www.itecusa.org>               <http://www.itecusa.org>                                

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  www.mavericklsa.com                 <http://www.mavericklsa.com>

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  <http://www.mavericklsa.com>

               

               Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  C: [url=tel:352-427-0285]352-427-0285[/url] <tel:[url=tel:352-427-0285]352-427-0285[/url]>               <tel:[url=tel:352-427-0285]352-427-0285[/url]

               Â  Â  Â  Â  <tel:[url=tel:352-427-0285]352-427-0285[/url]>>

               Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  O: [url=tel:352-465-4545]352-465-4545[/url] <tel:[url=tel:352-465-4545]352-465-4545[/url]>               <tel:[url=tel:352-465-4545]352-465-4545[/url]

               Â  Â  Â  Â  <tel:[url=tel:352-465-4545]352-465-4545[/url]>>

               Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  F: [url=tel:815-377-3694]815-377-3694[/url] <tel:[url=tel:815-377-3694]815-377-3694[/url]>               <tel:[url=tel:815-377-3694]815-377-3694[/url]                                

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  <tel:[url=tel:815-377-3694]815-377-3694[/url]>>

                 

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Sent from my iPhone

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  On Aug 30, 2014, at 10:47 AM, Phillip Perry

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)                 <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)>

               

               Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)                                

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)>>>                   wrote:

                   

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Last night I was thinking about shunt                   locations and it

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  seems like

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  there are 3 different electrical                   locations for it.

                   

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  1) Connected in the B-Lead (to measure                   the output of

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  the ALT).

                   

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  2) Connected to the battery (to                   measure the load on

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  the battery;

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  but it misses the contributions of                   electrons coming

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  from the ALT

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  to the main buss.)

                   

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Location 3 seems to be the most                   logical spot for me.

                   

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  3) Immediately before the main buss.Â                    So the ALT and

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Battery can

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  be sending electrons to the buss and                   I'll be measuring

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  them

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  before they enter the buss as they're                   consumed. Then

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  I'm getting

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  a measurement of true load (minus the                   start).

                   

                   

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Where have most of you installed                   yours?Â  I really like

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  option 3

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  but want to make sure I'm not missing                   something. I'm also

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  curious to know where yours is                   installed? I'm thinking

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  of putting

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  it on the aft side of the sub panel,                   so I can yank a

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  G3X screen

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  and access it.

                   

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Thanks,

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Phil

                   

                   

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  *

                   

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â                    Â D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

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                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  //forums.matronics.com                   <http://forums.matronics.com>

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  <http://forums.matronics.com>

                   

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â                    Â D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â                    Â D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

                   

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  *

                   

                   

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  *

                   

                   Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

                 

               

               Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  tp://forums.matronics.com               <http://forums.matronics.com>               

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  *

                 

                 

                 Â  Â  Â  Â  *

                 

                 

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               Â  Â  ====================================

               Â  Â  -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

               Â  Â  ====================================

               Â  Â  FORUMS -

               Â  Â  _blank">http://forums.matronics.com

               Â  Â  ====================================

               Â  Â  b Site -

               Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

               Â  Â  target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

               Â  Â  ====================================

               

               

               

               

               *

               

               

               *

             	
                                             

                 

                 ====================================

                 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

                 ====================================

                 FORUMS -

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[b]

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:40 pm Post subject: Shunt - Location

Yes, that is what you want. One more failure state to an alternator     that wasn't mentioned, is the failure of one or two diodes. That     will result in an alternator that will produce 10-20 amps, but no     more. You would see it as a small discharge on your battery, and not     going to 25+ amps right after start as it should. (similar to loose     and slipping belt results) Otherwise, you will have full alt output     or no output in most cases.

     On 8/30/2014 7:20 PM, Phillip Perry       wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		         I think I just sorted it out in my head. Â I was         thinking that the #8 B-Lead, #2 Battery, *and #8 Buss feed         wires* would all bind at the battery-side post of the starter         solenoid. Â  This would mean I have a single feed to the 'real'         buss bar.

     	
     It also means you are are seeing the entire system except for the     starter draw, and will know whether the battery is being charged or     discharged.

     [quote]        

         I'm now 99% sure that's not the case. Â I need to look at it         closer, but I believe I've got a connection for the B-Lead on         one end of the buss and on the other end of the buss I have a         battery connection. Â That makes perfect sense when someone says         to put it "in the battery lead".                    

         

         I won't be back at the hangar until Tuesday, but I'm pretty           sure I just figured it out. Â Sometimes I'm dense!

         

         

         Phil

         

         

         

         

       

                

         

         On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 9:10 PM, Linn           Walters <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com (flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com)>           wrote:

            	  Quote: 	
		                              Knowing which piece draws X amps is a good exercise,                 but what do you do with the data?Â  With modern equipment                 the load is comparatively small and with the transponder                 and strobes off a good battery should outlast your fuel                 supply.

                 

                 Alternator states are typically good charge (depending                 on battery level) or no charge.Â  A slipping belt will be                 in-between.Â  Batteries are more insidious .... they fail                 slowly at first and then gather steam towards useless.Â                  A good battery health indicator is the battery voltage                 just before start ..... how much did it lose since you                 last flew?Â  I have a desulfator trickle charger that I                 hook up after each flight so my 'settling time' is                 rather short.

                 IMHO, of course!

                 Linn                 

                   

                   On 8/30/2014 9:42 PM, Phillip Perry wrote:

                 

               

                	  Quote: 	
		                                      I dug my Aeroelectric book out of one of                     our moving boxes and I'll try to read it with a cup                     of coffee in the morning.                     

                     

                     I'm mostly interested in understanding charge                       or discharge rates. Â I can build a reference load                       chart (by running on battery only during a test                       session) to determine exactly what each piece of                       equipment pulls and how I might be able to shed                       load if needed.

                     

                     

                   

                   Phil

                   

                   

                 

                                                         

                       

                       On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at                         8:04 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>                         wrote:

                          	  Quote: 	
		                             --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly                             McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

                             

                           

                           I suppose there might be some aircraft with                           battery on the firewall where you might do                           that, but it makes no sense.

                           What information are you going to get by                           having the shunt at the battery? So you have a                           shunt that can handle the current, it will                           have less resolution of low current movement.                           (all shunts are designed for 0-50mv, where 50                           mv equals full scale). The only current you                           see at the battery besides what goes to the                           buss is the starter and anything else that you                           bypass the buss for some reason.

                           You really don't want to be splicing #2 or #4                           wire to install a shunt. #8 from starter relay                           to the buss will tell you all the information                           you want.

                           I don't have a clue why Garmin wrote that. I'm                           not aware of any certified aircraft that do it                           that way.                           

                             

                             On 8/30/2014 5:32 PM, Phillip Perry wrote:

                           

                            	  Quote: 	
		                                I'm not sure that's true and it's part                               of what I'm wrestling with.....Â  This is a                               direct quote from the G3X installation                               manual and from this text, it leads me to                               believe that it could be placed anywhere                               in the #2 wire and it would read the                               charge or discharge rates of that                               battery.Â  Am I missing something?

                               

                               Â  Â  An alternator ammeter shunt should be                               installed inline in the

                             

                             Â  Â  alternator output (â€œBâ€ terminal). */A                             battery ammeter shunt should                             

                               Â  Â  be installed between the battery                               positive terminal and the battery

                             

                             Â  Â  contactor./*Â  Depending on the location                             of the alternator or                             

                               Â  Â  battery relative to its supported                               electrical bus, it is typically

                               Â  Â  desirable to install the shunt on the                               firewall near where the

                               Â  Â  alternator or battery output would                               normally penetrate the firewall.

                               

                               

                               

                             

                              On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 7:13 PM, Kelly                               McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)                               <mailto:kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>>                                wrote:

                               

                               Â  Â  --> RV10-List message posted by:                               Kelly McMullen

                             

                             Â  Â  <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)                             <mailto:kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>>                              

                               

                               Â  Â  You really only have two choices.                               Either between Alternator and

                               Â  Â  buss, or between starter relay and                               buss. The latter tells you what

                               Â  Â  you expect, positive charge or                               discharge. You would have

                               Â  Â  difficulty connecting between battery                               and starter relay because it

                               Â  Â  is #4 wire, requiring bigger terminals                               than the shunt is intended

                               Â  Â  to take, and I don't think any shunt                               is designed for over 100

                               Â  Â  amps, while starter pulls 2-3 times                               that. So your #2 and #3

                               Â  Â  necessarily have to be the same place                               and probably will be your

                               Â  Â  choice.

                               

                               Â  Â  On 8/30/2014 8:33 AM, Phillip Perry                               wrote:

                               

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  Good feedback so far.

                               

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  Jessie, on your position, I assume                               it's inline and handles the

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  start without any issue.Â  (That's                               where Garmin suggests)

                               

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  What do you actually see on your                               digital readouts?Â  Do you see

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  0 Amps on a charged battery and                               typically -1 or so inflight?

                               

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  I'm just trying to understand the                               difference between what

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  would be seen monitoring a                               batteries charge vs monitoring a

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  load at the buss input.

                               

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  Very helpful stuff everyone....Â                                Keep the thoughts coming please.

                               

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  Phil

                               

                               

                               

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 10:12 AM,                               Jesse Saint

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  <jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)                               <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)>

                             

                             Â  Â  Â  Â  <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)                             

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)>>>                                wrote:

                               

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  I prefer to know what my                               battery is doing. If it goes more

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  than a

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  couple of amps negative with                               the engine running, then you have

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  problems. Also, right after                               start you will see 25+ amps

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  positive

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  which is a great indication                               that your alternator is

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  working well

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  enough to recharge your                               battery while powering the bus.

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  Knowing

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  what the bus is drawing is                               good for load shedding, but

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  that's all.

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  The one from the alternator is                               good too, so you will know

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  if it

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  isn't putting out amperage.

                               

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  The battery info is my                               favorite and most informative one.

                               

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Jesse Saint

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  I-TEC, Inc.

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)                               <mailto:jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)>

                             

                             Â  Â  Â  Â  <mailto:jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)                             <mailto:jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)>>

                             Â  Â  Â  Â  www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org>                              <http://www.itecusa.org>                               

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  www.mavericklsa.com                               <http://www.mavericklsa.com>

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  <http://www.mavericklsa.com>

                             

                             Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  C: [url=tel:352-427-0285]352-427-0285[/url]                             <tel:[url=tel:352-427-0285]352-427-0285[/url]>                              <tel:[url=tel:352-427-0285]352-427-0285[/url]

                             Â  Â  Â  Â  <tel:[url=tel:352-427-0285]352-427-0285[/url]>>

                             Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  O: [url=tel:352-465-4545]352-465-4545[/url]                             <tel:[url=tel:352-465-4545]352-465-4545[/url]>                              <tel:[url=tel:352-465-4545]352-465-4545[/url]

                             Â  Â  Â  Â  <tel:[url=tel:352-465-4545]352-465-4545[/url]>>

                             Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  F: [url=tel:815-377-3694]815-377-3694[/url]                             <tel:[url=tel:815-377-3694]815-377-3694[/url]>                              <tel:[url=tel:815-377-3694]815-377-3694[/url]                              

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  <tel:[url=tel:815-377-3694]815-377-3694[/url]>>

                               

                               

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Sent from my iPhone

                               

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  On Aug 30, 2014, at 10:47 AM,                               Phillip Perry

                               Â  Â  Â  Â  <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)                               <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)>

                             

                             Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)                                                            

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)>>>                                  wrote:

                                 

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Last night I was                                 thinking about shunt locations and it

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  seems like

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  there are 3 different                                 electrical locations for it.

                                 

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  1) Connected in the                                 B-Lead (to measure the output of

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  the ALT).

                                 

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  2) Connected to the                                 battery (to measure the load on

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  the battery;

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  but it misses the                                 contributions of electrons coming

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  from the ALT

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  to the main buss.)

                                 

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Location 3 seems to be                                 the most logical spot for me.

                                 

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  3) Immediately before                                 the main buss.Â  So the ALT and

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Battery can

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  be sending electrons to                                 the buss and I'll be measuring

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  them

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  before they enter the                                 buss as they're consumed. Then

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  I'm getting

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  a measurement of true                                 load (minus the start).

                                 

                                 

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Where have most of you                                 installed yours?Â  I really like

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  option 3

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  but want to make sure                                 I'm not missing something. I'm also

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  curious to know where                                 yours is installed? I'm thinking

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  of putting

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  it on the aft side of                                 the sub panel, so I can yank a

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  G3X screen

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  and access it.

                                 

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Thanks,

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Phil

                                 

                                 

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  *

                                 

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                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

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                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  //forums.matronics.com                                 <http://forums.matronics.com>

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  <http://forums.matronics.com>

                                 

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                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  *

                                 

                                 

                                 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  *

                                 

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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

rv10flyer

Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: Shunt - Location

I have three hall effect current sensors on my GRT. Main Bat feed , Aux Bat feed and Alt feed.  A toggle can be switched between the Bat and Alt sensors. Does Garmin not work with the hall effect type sensors?

_________________
Wayne G.

philperry9

Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 381

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:49 am Post subject: Shunt - Location

The toggle switch on a pair of hall effect sensors is a good idea Â 



The Garmin does work with them but I already own a pair of shunts. Â And at this point in the project, I'll take advantage of the stuff I own and try to keep from spending any more money than I have to. Â  



Phil



On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 11:32 PM, rv10flyer <wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com (wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "rv10flyer" <wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com (wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com)>

  

 I have three hall effect current sensors on my GRT. Main Bat feed , Aux Bat feed and Alt feed.Â  A toggle can be switched between the Bat and Alt sensors. Does Garmin not work with the hall effect type sensors?

 

 --------

 Wayne G.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429669#429669

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

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 [b]

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:37 am Post subject: Shunt - Location

So put one shunt on the alternator B+ line and one one the starter relay to buss line and you will know both what the battery is providing and what the alternator is providing.



 



On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 4:48 AM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote] The toggle switch on a pair of hall effect sensors is a good idea  



The Garmin does work with them but I already own a pair of shunts.  And at this point in the project, I'll take advantage of the stuff I own and try to keep from spending any more money than I have to.    



Phil



On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 11:32 PM, rv10flyer <wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com (wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: "rv10flyer" <wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com (wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com)>

   

 I have three hall effect current sensors on my GRT. Main Bat feed , Aux Bat feed and Alt feed.  A toggle can be switched between the Bat and Alt sensors. Does Garmin not work with the hall effect type sensors?

 

 --------

 Wayne G.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429669#429669

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 ===========

  FORUMS -

 _blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

bill.peyton

Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Posts: 198
Location: St. Louis, MO

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:48 am Post subject: Re: Shunt - Location

You are over thing it.  The shunt should always be place on the output lead of the alternator.  The aircraft does not run on the battery, it derives it's power from the alternator.  The only time the battery is used in the aircraft, or an automobile for that manner, is when you start the engine, or if the alternator fails.  The bus voltage can be used to trigger the g3x to provide you a warning and also a status if the alternator fails.  I. Addition, the plane power alternators have a separate lead that you can hook up to an indicator light on the panel to indicate an alternator failure.

In summary, you should be monitoring the current being drawn from the alternator, and set up the G3x to alarm you during overcurrent and under current situations.  You should also set up a voltage level alarm for over voltage and under voltage on both your primary and secondary battery.  In addition, you should have a load shed plan in case of the alternator failure.  Use this plane to de-power the high current unnecessary items on the bus.

_________________
Bill
WA0SYV
Aviation Partners, LLC

woxofswa

Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 349
Location: AZ

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Shunt - Location

Wiring the traditional way of consumptive drain on the battery still gives a lot of info options. 

With everything running, the meter will still spike with new items energized as a back up indication that the wizzie is getting power. 

You can also get the draw of individual items by checking them with the ALT off. That is nice to be able to check and note during construction or adding new items. (I used a ground power plug during construction).

Obviously that is usually done on the ground with the engine not running, but it doesn't have to be. I know there is controversy about turning the alt off with the engine running, but Socata used to have just such a check as part of the run up.  If you need to know the total draw on the ALT, turning it off will tell you. (after batt has been start replenished).

_________________
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Flew May 10 2014

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