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Program Letter

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Ernie

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:26 pm Post subject: Program Letter

I just got a letter from my friendly and knowledgeable FSDO in response to my first program letter that I sent them. I was told that my letter did not meet the requirements of 8130.2 chapter 4 section 10, which only states that I need to provide the local FSDO with a Program Letter. It provides no requirement for the content or format of the Program Letter.



The letter ends stating that the FSDO cannot accept my program letter, and I need to re-submit a new one that meets the info required in 8130.

Correct me if I'm off base here, but a Program Letter merely informs the FAA of my INTENT, and is not anything subject to approval or denial.

Apparently my letter must have ended up on the guys desk that never did this before.

ErnieÂ 



  [quote][b]

hess737(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:49 pm Post subject: Program Letter

Earnie

There should be guidance and an example in the 8130.2G but it does now have a specific format the FSDOs are using more and more. 



Richard HessC 404-964-4885

On Sep 6, 2014, at 17:24, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]I just got a letter from my friendly and knowledgeable FSDO in response to my first program letter that I sent them. I was told that my letter did not meet the requirements of 8130.2 chapter 4 section 10, which only states that I need to provide the local FSDO with a Program Letter. It provides no requirement for the content or format of the Program Letter.



The letter ends stating that the FSDO cannot accept my program letter, and I need to re-submit a new one that meets the info required in 8130.

Correct me if I'm off base here, but a Program Letter merely informs the FAA of my INTENT, and is not anything subject to approval or denial.

Apparently my letter must have ended up on the guys desk that never did this before.

Ernie 



   	  Quote: 	
		  



D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

//forums.matronics.com

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



	


[b]

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:35 pm Post subject: Program Letter

The EAA can also give you a hand with this...



But of course they would kind of expect you to be a member.



Mark Bitterlich

--

Dawg

Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 355

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:53 pm Post subject: Program Letter

Ask him what's he wants. 



Sent from my iPad



[quote] On Sep 7, 2014, at 7:33, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:

 

 

 

 The EAA can also give you a hand with this...

 

 But of course they would kind of expect you to be a member.

 

 Mark Bitterlich

 

 

 --

_________________
Dawg

mikeholoman(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:58 pm Post subject: Program Letter

Please try clicking on the link I have included below. If anyone has trouble with this link I could send a copy of the FAA's actual letter, requirements included, from their own office. I got the rejection letter from the FAA in 2010 rejecting the prior form I had used for the previous 10 years. I am not sure why they had a change of requirement. I insisted they give me exactly what they wanted, and they did. This one you just fill it out and copy them. They must accept it, it is theirs. By the way the FAA order is slightly different than that listed below. Should be 8130.2F chapter 10 paragraph 159, sub-paragraph (b)(1) on page 170 and Paragraph 161 sub-paragraph (37) on page 178. A bunch of bolonga but there it is and here is the link. Hope this helps.http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/roc/local_more/media/Program%20Letter%20Form.doc

Regards, Mike

[quote] From: l129bs(at)gmail.com

 Subject: Re: Program Letter

 Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2014 07:51:37 +0900

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Yak-List message posted by: billygeipel <l129bs(at)gmail.com>

 Ask him what's he wants. 

 Sent from my iPad

 > On Sep 7, 2014, at 7:33, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:

 > 

 > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

 > 

 > The EAA can also give you a hand with this...

 > 

 > But of course they would kind of expect you to be a member.

 > 

 > Mark Bitterlich

 > 

 > 

 > --

Ernie

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:42 pm Post subject: Program Letter

Mike,

8130.2F has been superseded by 8130.2G. This new directive does not require issuance of a new AW cert or Ops limitations upon sale of aircraft or change of home base.

Ernie

On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 8:56 PM, Mike Holoman <mikeholoman(at)hotmail.com (mikeholoman(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]   Please try clicking on the link I have included below. If anyone has trouble with this link I could send a copy of the FAA's actual letter, requirements included, from their own office. I got the rejection letter from the FAA in 2010 rejecting the prior form I had used for the previous 10 years. I am not sure why they had a change of requirement. I insisted they give me exactly what they wanted, and they did. This one you just fill it out and copy them. They must accept it, it is theirs. By the way the FAA order is slightly different than that listed below. Should be 8130.2F chapter 10 paragraph 159, sub-paragraph (b)(1) on page 170 and Paragraph 161 sub-paragraph (37) on page 178. A bunch of bolonga but there it is and here is the link. Hope this helps.http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/roc/local_more/media/Program%20Letter%20Form.doc

Regards, Mike

[quote] From: l129bs(at)gmail.com (l129bs(at)gmail.com)

 Subject: Re: Yak-List: Program Letter

 Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2014 07:51:37 +0900

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

 --> Yak-List message posted by: billygeipel <l129bs(at)gmail.com (l129bs(at)gmail.com)>

 Ask him what's he wants. 

 Sent from my iPad

 > On Sep 7, 2014, at 7:33, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:

 > 

 > --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

 > 

 > The EAA can also give you a hand with this..

 > 

 > But of course they would kind of expect you to be a member.

 > 

 > Mark Bitterlich

 > 

 > 

 > --

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:18 am Post subject: Program Letter

Bill, not trying to debate the issue, and your mileage may vary depending on what FSDO you are dealing with,  but it has been my experience to NEVER ask the FAA what they want.  No really, not EVER.   You may get the shock of your life when they give you an answer you never expected and subsequently you are now in a position where you either have to comply or debate the issue.   Debating with the FAA is never a good idea.



The best course of action in this and just about every other case, is to know the rules and regulations yourself and go from there.



Now I am going to say something that may raise some ire, but I hope not.   Every single CJ/Yak/Sukhoi owner on this list that is flying in the United States owns an Experimental aircraft.   Experimental Exhibition to be exact.  The one combined voice we all have is the Experimental Aircraft Association.   How anyone could pay between 40  to well over 100 grand on an aircraft, and then NOT be a member of the EAA just astounds me.  These people (the EAA) do nothing but fight for your rights, try to expand your privileges and are 100% member oriented.   I hear constant tales of the good times people have flying to Oshkosh, and Red Star has also proudly participated in this event.  The EAA also sponsors War Birds of America, the International Aerobatic Association, and more.



Their Government Branch, specifically Randy Hanson (and his crew) are a phone call away from answering this exact question, with more than just personal opinion (and experience), but instead with up to date material backed up with a direct link to the Washington D.C. FAA branch, which supersedes ALL of our local FSDO's.



I am sure that Ernie can eventually get an answer from the Yak List, or he can solve this matter on his own, but that does not change the fact that there is no better way to get answers concerning FAA actions such as this than the Experimental Aircraft Association in the good ole U.S. of A.



In my opinion, every owner of an Experimental aircraft should feel a certain responsibility to be a member of the EAA.    It is a very small price to pay for an organization that fights for our rights to continue to  fly these very special aircraft that all of us are lucky enough to own and those that do not believe that ought to contact Richard Goode and have him compare how it is in Europe to the United States.



That said, I am 100% sure that the EAA will answer Ernie's question... member or not.   They are but a phone call, or email away Ernie.



Mark

--

Ernie

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:28 am Post subject: Program Letter

Mark,



I agree, I got the information on 8130.2G from the EAA Website. I replied to the FSDO with precisely what the FAA order prescribes, and referred to the appropriate chapter and verse, which supports my position.Â 

Ernie



On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:

[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

 

 Bill, not trying to debate the issue, and your mileage may vary depending on what FSDO you are dealing with,Â  but it has been my experience to NEVER ask the FAA what they want.Â  No really, not EVER.Â  Â You may get the shock of your life when they give you an answer you never expected and subsequently you are now in a position where you either have to comply or debate the issue.Â  Â Debating with the FAA is never a good idea.

 



 

 [b]

Dawg

Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 355

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:31 pm Post subject: Program Letter

5 FSDO's 40 experimental/exhibition imports certified. 

But I guess you never know. Ernie got the guy who wanted to make a name for himself.



Sent from my iPad



On Sep 8, 2014, at 23:26, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]Mark,



I agree, I got the information on 8130.2G from the EAA Website. I replied to the FSDO with precisely what the FAA order prescribes, and referred to the appropriate chapter and verse, which supports my position. 

Ernie



On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

 

 Bill, not trying to debate the issue, and your mileage may vary depending on what FSDO you are dealing with,  but it has been my experience to NEVER ask the FAA what they want.  No really, not EVER.   You may get the shock of your life when they give you an answer you never expected and subsequently you are now in a position where you either have to comply or debate the issue.   Debating with the FAA is never a good idea.

 



 

 



D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

//forums.matronics.com

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



	


[b]

_________________
Dawg

jblake207(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:57 pm Post subject: Program Letter

Ernie got the dufuss....



Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID



billygeipel <l129bs(at)gmail.com> wrote:



5 FSDO's 40 experimental/exhibition imports certified. 

But I guess you never know. Ernie got the guy who wanted to make a name for himself.



Sent from my iPad



On Sep 8, 2014, at 23:26, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]Mark,



I agree, I got the information on 8130.2G from the EAA Website. I replied to the FSDO with precisely what the FAA order prescribes, and referred to the appropriate chapter and verse, which supports my position. 

Ernie



On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

 

 Bill, not trying to debate the issue, and your mileage may vary depending on what FSDO you are dealing with,  but it has been my experience to NEVER ask the FAA what they want.  No really, not EVER.   You may get the shock of your life when they give you an answer you never expected and subsequently you are now in a position where you either have to comply or debate the issue.   Debating with the FAA is never a good idea.

 



 

 



D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

//forums.matronics.com

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



	


[b]

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:14 am Post subject: Program Letter

"Our idea of a good time is making sure you don't have one. "



   A quote I suspect  applies to many government agencies.

--

Ernie

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:37 am Post subject: Program Letter

In the end everything worked out fine, the FSDO guy called me this morning and was quite pleasant. He did point out an error on my existing Ops Limits, which had my CJ categorized as a Group III aircraft (>12,500lbs and >800 HP). Otherwise he started out wanting my Chief mechanics name, and my Approved Maintenance plan, and other items which did not apply. Once I walked him through the order and explained that my aircraft did not require a maintenance plan, and that I was a group II aircraft, and that I did not need to provide all the items listed in "Initial Certification" and that I was no longer in Phase I, and that I was not asking for a change in my Ops Limits, he agreed with everything and we were done.



Sometimes it just takes a little patience, something I'm not known for 

Ernie



On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 3:13 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:

[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

 

 

 

 Â  "Our idea of a good time is making sure you don't have one. "

 

 Â  Â A quote I suspectÂ  applies to many government agencies.

 

 

[b]

Dawg

Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 355

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:29 pm Post subject: Program Letter

Like I said, ask him or help to educate them. They will actually help you. But if you go in with the "attitude" then it's never going to work. Like it or not, these folks hold the key to your airplane. So getting along is always a good thing. Don't you think? 40 certifications with no problems. One FSDO asked if they could come and watch a gear swing so they could understand what they were looking at. Education crosses a lot of bridges. However, there will always be one of those not so sweet apples in the bunch. Just like there are some not so sweet apples in our pilot bunch.

Glad it worked out Ernie.

Bill



Sent from my iPad



On Sep 10, 2014, at 4:35, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]In the end everything worked out fine, the FSDO guy called me this morning and was quite pleasant. He did point out an error on my existing Ops Limits, which had my CJ categorized as a Group III aircraft (>12,500lbs and >800 HP). Otherwise he started out wanting my Chief mechanics name, and my Approved Maintenance plan, and other items which did not apply. Once I walked him through the order and explained that my aircraft did not require a maintenance plan, and that I was a group II aircraft, and that I did not need to provide all the items listed in "Initial Certification" and that I was no longer in Phase I, and that I was not asking for a change in my Ops Limits, he agreed with everything and we were done.



Sometimes it just takes a little patience, something I'm not known for 

Ernie



On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 3:13 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

 

 

 

   "Our idea of a good time is making sure you don't have one. "

 

    A quote I suspect  applies to many government agencies.

 

 





D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

//forums.matronics.com

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



	


[b]

_________________
Dawg

rocknpilot(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:08 am Post subject: Program Letter

Amen, Brotha!



Rico Jaeger

915 S. 11th Ave.                  

Wausau, WI. 54401     

715.529.7426                    

                                                                  //

1966 Cessna 150F                            ^/---//-X

N8558G                                                  //

                                                //               

1992 Yakovlev Yak 52    ^/---//-X

N21YK                                  //

                                          



From: l129bs(at)gmail.com

Subject: Re: Program Letter

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 11:28:11 +0900

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com



Like I said, ask him or help to educate them. They will actually help you. But if you go in with the "attitude" then it's never going to work. Like it or not, these folks hold the key to your airplane. So getting along is always a good thing. Don't you think? 40 certifications with no problems. One FSDO asked if they could come and watch a gear swing so they could understand what they were looking at. Education crosses a lot of bridges. However, there will always be one of those not so sweet apples in the bunch. Just like there are some not so sweet apples in our pilot bunch.

Glad it worked out Ernie.

Bill



Sent from my iPad



On Sep 10, 2014, at 4:35, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]In the end everything worked out fine, the FSDO guy called me this morning and was quite pleasant. He did point out an error on my existing Ops Limits, which had my CJ categorized as a Group III aircraft (>12,500lbs and >800 HP). Otherwise he started out wanting my Chief mechanics name, and my Approved Maintenance plan, and other items which did not apply. Once I walked him through the order and explained that my aircraft did not require a maintenance plan, and that I was a group II aircraft, and that I did not need to provide all the items listed in "Initial Certification" and that I was no longer in Phase I, and that I was not asking for a change in my Ops Limits, he agreed with everything and we were done.



Sometimes it just takes a little patience, something I'm not known for 

Ernie



On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 3:13 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

 

 

 

   "Our idea of a good time is making sure you don't have one. "

 

    A quote I suspect  applies to many government agencies.

 

 




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