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clivesutton
Joined: 23 Jan 2013
Posts: 187
Location: KENILWORTH
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Fred Klein
Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503
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 Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:36 pm Post subject: STOL enhancement? |
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On Aug 31, 2014, at 2:46 PM, gtagr <clive.maf(at)googlemail.com (clive.maf(at)googlemail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | | Partial-span leading edge slats to the existing touring wings might be an elegant solution . . . [Idea] |
…t’would be way above my pay grade…sounds like a project for Nigel G….but the first time I was able to observe a Europa mono from short final to touchdown with a nominal headwind is engraved in my brain as it being just so slow…so impressive.
As for any improvement in TO performance, assuming you’re already spinning up a flat-pitch CS prop, how about a bungee?…or some RATO bottles?
[quote][b]
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rlborger(at)mac.com
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:01 pm Post subject: STOL enhancement? |
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gtagr,
Forget adding leading edge slats to a Europa wing unless you are an aero engineer and extremely, and I mean EXTREMELY, well versed in composite construction. From building complex molds to vacuuming bagging, etc.
The best thing that anyone has attempted so far is to add vortex generators to the wing to lower the stall speed. I’m not sure that would help with takeoff, maybe, but sure would help on landing slower.
The Europa already has some pretty impressive short landing and takeoff capability. Not in the CH750 STOL league but might be good enough to suffice for your needs. When taking off to the south on my home field (KTDO) I can be off the ground by Taxiway A2 and on landing I can easily land and turn off on A2 without strong braking.
Find someone near you and see if you can get a demo of the capability or a ride.
Blue skies & tailwinds,Bob BorgerEuropa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (50 hrs).Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP3705 Lynchburg Dr.Corinth, TX 76208-5331Cel: 817-992-1117rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)
On Aug 31, 2014, at 3:46 PM, gtagr <clive.maf(at)googlemail.com (clive.maf(at)googlemail.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "gtagr" <clive.maf(at)googlemail.com (clive.maf(at)googlemail.com)>
Thinking about my next a/c and I'm really after the CH750 STOL capabilities - but the CH750 cruise performance (and styling) puts me off that a/c. Wondered if anyone had seen or attempted any enhancements or developments to the Mono or TriGear to achieve this?
Partial-span leading edge slats to the existing touring wings might be an elegant solution . . . [Idea][b]
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John Wighton
Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 241
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:42 pm Post subject: Re: STOL enhancement? |
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My first thought on this made me laugh.... If you need to operate out of 200m strips then go the ugly duckling route. The CH750 is a great plane if you need to get off the ground very quickly and poodle around at 70kts. The Europa is a completely different machine - good short field performance (but NOT STOL) - it is a machine for going places. Operating from 400m (no obstructions) is not an issue.
Slats on a Europa would be a major job - essentially a new aircraft/wing. The wing section does not lend itself to STOL and hence would need to change (higher camber, more drag/lift). The structure is not designed for the high lift loads imposed by slats - hence has to change. The elevator is, probably, sufficiently powerful (required to arrest STOL type decent rates). Landing gear not good for the high ng (ground reaction load factor) of STOL operation - need to change. Etc , etc.
Why make a Tayradactyl out of a Swan?
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John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD |
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ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:20 am Post subject: STOL enhancement? |
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Well said John.
At Oshkosh I was very impressed with the Super STOL by Just Aircraft. What a wonderful performer with 29 inch Alaskan tyres, automatic Slats and oleo tailwheel to take the tail first impact. Designed to land in rivers to go fishing, mountain plateaus to go climbing, and ice lakes to go skating!
Asked the pilot if he had an AOA instrument to perfect the very short landings. The answer was "negative, just keep on bringing the stick back!"
My next project if domestic control allows! Keep me out of the house.
Europa to tour, Super STOL to get to those "out of the way" places and 787 to ride above it all! And pay for it.
Nice to see the USA Europa tribe at Oshkosh.
Cheers,
Tim
Tim Ward
12 Waiwetu Street
Fendalton,
Christchurch, 8052
New Zealand.
ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Ph 64 3 3515166
Mob 0210640221
| Quote: | On 1/09/2014, at 7:42 pm, "John Wighton" <john(at)wighton.net> wrote:
My first thought on this made me laugh.... If you need to operate out of 200m strips then go the ugly duckling route. The CH750 is a great plane if you need to get off the ground very quickly and poodle around at 70kts. The Europa is a completely different machine - good short field performance (but NOT STOL) - it is a machine for going places. Operating from 400m (no obstructions) is not an issue.
Slats on a Europa would be a major job - essentially a new aircraft/wing. The wing section does not lend itself to STOL and hence would need to change (higher camber, more drag/lift). The structure is not designed for the high lift loads imposed by slats - hence has to change. The elevator is, probably, sufficiently powerful (required to arrest STOL type decent rates). Landing gear not good for the high ng (ground reaction load factor) of STOL operation - need to change. Etc , etc.
Why make a Tayradactyl out of a Swan?
[Rolling Eyes]
--------
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429740#429740
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:42 am Post subject: STOL enhancement? |
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Are you flying 787 now Tim?
Graham
From: Timward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz>
To: "europa-list(at)matronics.com" <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, 1 September 2014, 9:19
Subject: Re: Re: STOL enhancement?
[quote][b]
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clivesutton
Joined: 23 Jan 2013
Posts: 187
Location: KENILWORTH
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:15 am Post subject: Re: STOL enhancement? |
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Thanks for everyone's responses. The fact is that some STOL users may choose a CH750 over a Europa and for that reason it is worth considering improved STOL performance in my view. A consultation with AD at the LAA revealed that 33 degree flap was tried during development - which improved stall speed, but aileron authority was degraded at that speed.
So I may try a phased approach to improve STOL (1) vortex generators ahead of ailerons coupled with an increased flap angle (2) fixed position leading edge slats (3) deployable leading edge slats that come out with flaps.
If Europa landing performance could be reduced to below 100m, shorter fields may open up the possibility of more people using their own land and thereby the Europa regaining/retaining its appeal. Available airfields (at least in the UK) if not now, then in the future, are becoming a limiting factor . . .
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budyerly(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:21 pm Post subject: STOL enhancement? |
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<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Clive,
In developing the LSA version I did go to Vortex Generators to lower the stall speed. We had them made up for the curve of the Europa wing. Clean stall speed was reduced about 6 knots from 50 KCAS to 44 KCAS. Touchdown speeds can be as low as 45 KCAS with the stall at about 40. Aileron control is much improved down to 40 KCAS with 27 degree flap. The problem with VGs or Slats is you will drag the tail before you stall the Europa in ground effect clean, and I have even drug the tail with full flaps.
With the VGs I am very comfortable at 55 KIAS on final fully loaded, and 50 KIAS solo lightly loaded, and once in ground effect, pull the power back, and hold it off until 45. The flaps can be lowered with the VGs slightly more, but since you will be nearly dragging the tail before getting the benefit of the increased flap angle, I just don't see the advantage. Lowering the approach to 45 KIAS power on is possible, and a flare out is possible, but watch the sink rate.
On approach, the airspeed must be watched closely. The ailerons and feel of the aircraft is so sound you can find yourself at 40 KIAS in perfect control, but in a horrendous sink rate. (Falling with style.)
On asphalt, due to the residual thrust of the WD, Sensenich, or Airmaster Propellers in the flare, the landing roll of my Classic just didn't decrease significantly. Maybe 75 feet shorter. Takeoff performance was not improved over the mono distances unless a yank it off at 45 KIAS takeoff was planned. With a full turbo, Airmaster 332, and lightly loaded, 400 feet was possible. Although the plane with full power will fly at 45, with a stall margin at full flaps, if the engine coughs, you are at a very high deck angle and climb angle. If the engine fails, as in any aircraft, even the 750, you must push over aggressively, and expect significant impact forces and damage if engine failure occurs at best angle.
In testing the Zenith 701, it was worse than what I experienced in the Europa LSA. The plane is very light and has more wing area and consequently it pops off the ground quickly, but has no glide ability. Engine failure on takeoff on a short field has a significant risk factor. A scary exercise in the Zenith 701/750 is to approach the runway at idle power and min approach speed of 35 - 40 KIAS and try to flare out without adding power. Without a power increase, the nose gear will not survive normally... The 701 does not have sufficient tail volume to flare at these speeds. The 750 tail area was increased as was done in the 801. In the 701, I and the aircraft survived because I kept my speed at 35 and abruptly flared to allow the momentum to raise the nose enough for a main gear smack down. This characteristic of insufficient tail volume is evident at Sun 'n Fun as there is usually a Zenith 7 something with a smashed front end due to a landing mishap for sale in the "Parts Mart". If you wish to flare out on an engine out approach in a slatted or VG equipped aircraft, stick to your glide speed that allows a flare out.
The Europa is just not comfortable getting off in less than 600 feet, off grass, no wind and climb over a 50 foot tree line. You can't see the trees due to the deck angle. The VGs allow impressive climb angles, but without margin for error. The deck angle on a short field, over obstacle, takeoff to climb at 45 KIAS is quite impressive and control is comfortable. On landing, the VGs give excellent control on final, but keep power at the ready if a downdraft is encountered as your stall margin is reduced. Keep the nose up and with a firm contact, hold the nose off, and landing rolls can be quite short. But not less than 500 feet as it still wants to float a bit. I did not have the opportunity to do any over 50 foot obstacle landing rolls. The nose is high, the landing area is not in sight and if you lower the nose, speed picks up quickly.
100 meter operations with two on board are not very comfortable in any aircraft. There are insufficient margins in my opinion.
Troy at Just Aircraft has slatted his aircraft and calls it a Super STOL. It is impressive, but again is very light, power dependent, is terribly slow, but fun. Its landing gear have large oleos and are designed for very rough terrain. You are near the margin on takeoff, and power on is recommended for landings at min speeds. The Super STOL is a much tougher and more capable aircraft for STOL operations than the Zenith but not as roomy as the 750.
Just my opinion.
Regards,
Bud Yerly
[quote] ---
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clivesutton
Joined: 23 Jan 2013
Posts: 187
Location: KENILWORTH
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:42 pm Post subject: Re: STOL enhancement? |
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Bud, very much appreciate your detailed and experience-laden reply - it may save me a great deal of work. I'm keen to evaluate this as much as possible by calculation and then bounce my conclusions off of those such as yourself who have a detailed and informed opinion. Best regards. Clive
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