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rnjcurtis(at)charter.net
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 Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:21 pm Post subject: Batteries. |
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Has anyone on the list checked out the VMAX600 battery. The specs make it look a bit better than the PC680. The CCA is somewhat higher and the AH is also higher at 20. The price is somewhat lower.
Just stirring the pot! I may or may not buy. looking to see if anyone has experience with this.
Roger
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:16 pm Post subject: Batteries. |
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Google '12220 battery'. 22AH; same form factor as PC680.
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 27, 2014, at 7:00 PM, <rnjcurtis(at)charter.net (rnjcurtis(at)charter.net)> wrote:
[quote] Has anyone on the list checked out the VMAX600 battery. The specs make it look a bit better than the PC680. The CCA is somewhat higher and the AH is also higher at 20. The price is somewhat lower.
Just stirring the pot! I may or may not buy. looking to see if anyone has experience with this.
Roger
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[b]
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1927
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:26 am Post subject: Batteries. |
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At 09:37 2014-09-28, you wrote:
Excellent point. The rules that set energy limits in
chemistry are pretty much carved in stone. A couple of years
ago we were offered some batteries marked as if they were
in a larger class of product than reality revealed.
[img]cid:.0[/img]
I've still got a couple of these I keep for various
tasks but they're closer to a 14 ah battery than 20.
One of the first things we noted about these critters
was their light weight.
The rating of lithium cells comes with another constellation
of facts in physics. I'm doing some articles in Kitplanes
on lithium . . . I've been testing some 26650 cells
off eBay where you'll find them 'rated' from 2400 to
6600 mAH. How can THIS be? Seems that this chemistry's
life-cycle is extended greatly by NOT stuffing the
chemistry to full capacity on each recharge cycle.
The more conservative offerors of these cells
seem to encourage longer life by rating them
at much less than the chemistry's max capacity.
So once again, weight of the cell is a strong
first marker in potential performance with
recommended performance being something more
reserved.
The next article will discuss my discoveries.
Bob . . .
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handainc(at)madisoncounty
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:15 am Post subject: Batteries. |
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Here is the type of battery I have been using for the last 20 years in my airplane. Generally, the battery will last around 5 to 6 years. I've only had one fail in that length of time as I generally replace them in year 5, letting them serve out their time as "jumper" batteries on in my lawnmower. And the one that failed was abused terribly as I left the master switch on and ran down completely in sub-zero weather, and it sat that way for 6 weeks or more. I have had excellent service from them, and no longer had to repair the battery box every 3 or 4 months. http://www.batterymart.com/p-Big-Crank-ETX14-Battery.html
M. Haught
On Sep 28, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:[quote] At 09:37 2014-09-28, you wrote:
Excellent point. The rules that set energy limits in
chemistry are pretty much carved in stone. A couple of years
ago we were offered some batteries marked as if they were
in a larger class of product than reality revealed.
<4756e2d.jpg>
I've still got a couple of these I keep for various
tasks but they're closer to a 14 ah battery than 20.
One of the first things we noted about these critters
was their light weight.
The rating of lithium cells comes with another constellation
of facts in physics. I'm doing some articles in Kitplanes
on lithium . . . I've been testing some 26650 cells
off eBay where you'll find them 'rated' from 2400 to
6600 mAH. How can THIS be? Seems that this chemistry's
life-cycle is extended greatly by NOT stuffing the
chemistry to full capacity on each recharge cycle.
The more conservative offerors of these cells
seem to encourage longer life by rating them
at much less than the chemistry's max capacity.
So once again, weight of the cell is a strong
first marker in potential performance with
recommended performance being something more
reserved.
The next article will discuss my discoveries.
Bob . . .
[b]
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handainc(at)madisoncounty
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:30 am Post subject: Batteries. |
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Am looking forward to Bob's article on the lithium batteries.....I've tried a couple with very disappointing results.
M. Haught
On Sep 28, 2014, at 12:14 PM, H. Marvin Haught wrote:
[quote]Here is the type of battery I have been using for the last 20 years in my airplane. Generally, the battery will last around 5 to 6 years. I've only had one fail in that length of time as I generally replace them in year 5, letting them serve out their time as "jumper" batteries on in my lawnmower. And the one that failed was abused terribly as I left the master switch on and ran down completely in sub-zero weather, and it sat that way for 6 weeks or more. I have had excellent service from them, and no longer had to repair the battery box every 3 or 4 months. http://www.batterymart.com/p-Big-Crank-ETX14-Battery.html
M. Haught
On Sep 28, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: | Quote: | At 09:37 2014-09-28, you wrote:
Excellent point. The rules that set energy limits in
chemistry are pretty much carved in stone. A couple of years
ago we were offered some batteries marked as if they were
in a larger class of product than reality revealed.
<4756e2d.jpg>
I've still got a couple of these I keep for various
tasks but they're closer to a 14 ah battery than 20.
One of the first things we noted about these critters
was their light weight.
The rating of lithium cells comes with another constellation
of facts in physics. I'm doing some articles in Kitplanes
on lithium . . . I've been testing some 26650 cells
off eBay where you'll find them 'rated' from 2400 to
6600 mAH. How can THIS be? Seems that this chemistry's
life-cycle is extended greatly by NOT stuffing the
chemistry to full capacity on each recharge cycle.
The more conservative offerors of these cells
seem to encourage longer life by rating them
at much less than the chemistry's max capacity.
So once again, weight of the cell is a strong
first marker in potential performance with
recommended performance being something more
reserved.
The next article will discuss my discoveries.
Bob . . .
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:14 am Post subject: Batteries. |
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At 12:29 2014-09-28, you wrote:
| Quote: | Am looking forward to Bob's article on the lithium
batteries.....I've tried a couple with very disappointing results.
|
Which ones have you tried? What kind of alternator?
What size engine. What kind of starter?
How do you use your airplane? Were you able to monitor/
control the system charging voltage? Tell us a story
my friend!
Bob . . .
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handainc(at)madisoncounty
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 1:49 pm Post subject: Batteries. |
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The first I tried was for my CPAP machine. I like to camp and do so often, and was having to carry a 12 to 18 pound battery around to power the CPAP. Respronics makes a 14.8 V/6.6AH LI-ON battery pack. Kinda pricey at $352, comes in it's own little travel case, with a dedicated charger unit. Charged it up fully and used it one night at home. It lasted all night, so I thought I was good to go. Camping, it only lasted 4 hours and then quit. I charged it all day from the airplane, and again, it only lasted 4 hours. I used the airplane battery (the one I posted earlier) after that, and it would run the CPAP all night, and still start the airplane the next day. I've have tried the LI-ION Battery pack several times since then, and 4 hours is all the service I get. Very dis-satifactory especially considering the price. Plus, in cold weather, it won't run the CPAP for more than an hour or so.
The second was when I sold my airplane and flew it to Alaska. The new owner bought an AeroVoltz 8 cell at 1.8 pounds to replace the UTV Battery. At that time, it came with a special charger, in case you ever completely discharged the battery. While the battery did okay on the trip, we had to take the battery cover off of the box because it was getting so hot. After we got to Alaska, he said it only lasted a few weeks until the first cold spell, and then it would not turn over the engine on cold mornings. It was being charged by a standard generator that showed 13.5 charging volts through a Zeftronics regulator. Engine was a Lycoming 0290-D.
Limited story and probably will not yield any useful info, but that is the most of which I think I know!
M. Haught
On Sep 28, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
| Quote: |
At 12:29 2014-09-28, you wrote:
> Am looking forward to Bob's article on the lithium batteries.....I've tried a couple with very disappointing results.
Which ones have you tried? What kind of alternator?
What size engine. What kind of starter?
How do you use your airplane? Were you able to monitor/
control the system charging voltage? Tell us a story
my friend!
Bob . . .
|
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:37 pm Post subject: Batteries. |
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When you ran this Li-ion pack at home did you do so inside at room temperature ?
Then you took it outside and got the poor performance ?
Always look at what the supplier quote as normal operating temperature of the pack. The other issue is that Li-ion has many more flavours than your old fashioned lead battery, hence a much wider operating envelope. When talking about Li-ion you need to know the specific chemistry - iron phosphate or cobalt etc.... And what type of cell is used .. Pouch cell or round etc... Each type has its advantages and disadvantages ... .
The old saying that you have " liars, liars and battery suppliers " is still very true ... Especially with Li-ion ... 
All the best
Jan
| Quote: | On Sep 29, 2014, at 5:47, "H. Marvin Haught" <handainc(at)madisoncounty.net> wrote:
The first I tried was for my CPAP machine. I like to camp and do so often, and was having to carry a 12 to 18 pound battery around to power the CPAP. Respronics makes a 14.8 V/6.6AH LI-ON battery pack. Kinda pricey at $352, comes in it's own little travel case, with a dedicated charger unit. Charged it up fully and used it one night at home. It lasted all night, so I thought I was good to go. Camping, it only lasted 4 hours and then quit. I charged it all day from the airplane, and again, it only lasted 4 hours. I used the airplane battery (the one I posted earlier) after that, and it would run the CPAP all night, and still start the airplane the next day. I've have tried the LI-ION Battery pack several times since then, and 4 hours is all the service I get. Very dis-satifactory especially considering the price. Plus, in cold weather, it won't run the CPAP for more than an hour or so.
The second was when I sold my airplane and flew it to Alaska. The new owner bought an AeroVoltz 8 cell at 1.8 pounds to replace the UTV Battery. At that time, it came with a special charger, in case you ever completely discharged the battery. While the battery did okay on the trip, we had to take the battery cover off of the box because it was getting so hot. After we got to Alaska, he said it only lasted a few weeks until the first cold spell, and then it would not turn over the engine on cold mornings. It was being charged by a standard generator that showed 13.5 charging volts through a Zeftronics regulator. Engine was a Lycoming 0290-D.
Limited story and probably will not yield any useful info, but that is the most of which I think I know!
M. Haught
> On Sep 28, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
>
>
> At 12:29 2014-09-28, you wrote:
>> Am looking forward to Bob's article on the lithium batteries.....I've tried a couple with very disappointing results.
>
> Which ones have you tried? What kind of alternator?
> What size engine. What kind of starter?
>
> How do you use your airplane? Were you able to monitor/
> control the system charging voltage? Tell us a story
> my friend!
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
|
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handainc(at)madisoncounty
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:20 pm Post subject: Batteries. |
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It definitely does not perform well below freezing - most use has been camping in the 70's to 90's. It was just a rip off, for $352. The pack has 12 round batteries in a plastic shrink pack. Now, even at room temps at home, it won't run the CPAP more than 3 or 4 hours. I've been thinking of taking it to Battery Outfitters and see if they can rebuild it with better performing batteries that can use the original plugs and charger. They rebuilt all my drill batteries a year or so ago and they have been infinitely better than the OEM batteries.....hold a charge longer and it has already been 2 years since I had them rebuilt. I used my truck battery at Oshkosh this year, and it worked fine. On my new airplane project, I am going to just put in a second lighter weight battery that the electrical system will charge, and use it for my CPAP. Jeeping in the outback, we take a second battery and charge it as we drive during the day.
M. Haught
On Sep 28, 2014, at 6:34 PM, Jan wrote:
| Quote: |
When you ran this Li-ion pack at home did you do so inside at room temperature ?
Then you took it outside and got the poor performance ?
Always look at what the supplier quote as normal operating temperature of the pack. The other issue is that Li-ion has many more flavours than your old fashioned lead battery, hence a much wider operating envelope. When talking about Li-ion you need to know the specific chemistry - iron phosphate or cobalt etc.... And what type of cell is used .. Pouch cell or round etc... Each type has its advantages and disadvantages ... .
The old saying that you have " liars, liars and battery suppliers " is still very true ... Especially with Li-ion ...
All the best
Jan
> On Sep 29, 2014, at 5:47, "H. Marvin Haught" <handainc(at)madisoncounty.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> The first I tried was for my CPAP machine. I like to camp and do so often, and was having to carry a 12 to 18 pound battery around to power the CPAP. Respronics makes a 14.8 V/6.6AH LI-ON battery pack. Kinda pricey at $352, comes in it's own little travel case, with a dedicated charger unit. Charged it up fully and used it one night at home. It lasted all night, so I thought I was good to go. Camping, it only lasted 4 hours and then quit. I charged it all day from the airplane, and again, it only lasted 4 hours. I used the airplane battery (the one I posted earlier) after that, and it would run the CPAP all night, and still start the airplane the next day. I've have tried the LI-ION Battery pack several times since then, and 4 hours is all the service I get. Very dis-satifactory especially considering the price. Plus, in cold weather, it won't run the CPAP for more than an hour or so.
>
> The second was when I sold my airplane and flew it to Alaska. The new owner bought an AeroVoltz 8 cell at 1.8 pounds to replace the UTV Battery. At that time, it came with a special charger, in case you ever completely discharged the battery. While the battery did okay on the trip, we had to take the battery cover off of the box because it was getting so hot. After we got to Alaska, he said it only lasted a few weeks until the first cold spell, and then it would not turn over the engine on cold mornings. It was being charged by a standard generator that showed 13.5 charging volts through a Zeftronics regulator. Engine was a Lycoming 0290-D.
>
> Limited story and probably will not yield any useful info, but that is the most of which I think I know!
>
> M. Haught
>> On Sep 28, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> At 12:29 2014-09-28, you wrote:
>>> Am looking forward to Bob's article on the lithium batteries.....I've tried a couple with very disappointing results.
>>
>> Which ones have you tried? What kind of alternator?
>> What size engine. What kind of starter?
>>
>> How do you use your airplane? Were you able to monitor/
>> control the system charging voltage? Tell us a story
>> my friend!
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
|
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ARGOLDMAN(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:01 pm Post subject: Batteries. |
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There is also an old saying that goes something like, when all fails, read the instructions. My reading of the LiFePo batteries documentation from several sources says that when very cold, the initial start attemp will warm the battery after which the engine will start normally.
Rich
In a message dated 9/28/2014 6:38:26 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK writes:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jan <jan(at)claver.demon.co.uk>
When you ran this Li-ion pack at home did you do so inside at room temperature ?
Then you took it outside and got the poor performance ?
Always look at what the supplier quote as normal operating temperature of the pack. The other issue is that Li-ion has many more flavours than your old fashioned lead battery, hence a much wider operating envelope. When talking about Li-ion you need to know the specific chemistry - iron phosphate or cobalt etc.... And what type of cell is used .. Pouch cell or round etc... Each type has its advantages and disadvantages ... .
The old saying that you have " liars, liars and battery suppliers " is still very true ... Especially with Li-ion ...
All the best
Jan
| Quote: | On Sep 29, 2014, at 5:47, "H. Marvin Haught" <handainc(at)madisoncounty.net> wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "H. Marvin Haught" <handainc(at)madisoncounty.net>
The first I tried was for my CPAP machine. I like to camp and do so often, and was having to carry a 12 to 18 pound battery around to power the CPAP. Respronics makes a 14.8 V/6.6AH LI-ON battery pack. Kinda pricey at $352, comes in it's own little travel case, with a dedicated charger unit. Charged it up fully and used it one night at home. It lasted all night, so I thought I was good to go. Camping, it only lasted 4 hours and then quit. I charged it all day from the airplane, and again, it only lasted 4 hours. I used the airplane battery (the one I posted earlier) after that, and it would run the CPAP all night, and still start the airplane the next day. I've have tried the LI-ION Battery pack several times since then, and 4 hours is all the service I get. Very dis-satifactory especially considering the price. Plus, in cold weather, it won't run the CPAP for more than an hour or so.
The second was when I sold my airplane and flew it to Alaska. The new owner bought an AeroVoltz 8 cell at 1.8 pounds to replace the UTV Battery. At that time, it came with a special charger, in case you ever completely discharged the battery. While the battery did okay on the trip, we had to take the battery cover off of the box because it was getting so hot. After we got to Alaska, he said it only lasted a few weeks until the first cold spell, and then it would not turn over the engine on cold mornings. It was being charged by a standard generator that showed 13.5 charging volts through a Zeftronics regulator. Engine was a Lycoming 0290-D.
Limited story and probably will not yield any useful info, but that is the most of which I think I know!
M. Haught
> On Sep 28, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>
> At 12:29 2014-09-28, you wrote:
>> Am looking forward to Bob's article on the lithium batteries.....I've tried a couple with very disappointing results.
>
> Which ones have you tried? What kind of alternator?
> What size engine. What kind of starter?
>
> How do you use your airplane? Were you able to monitor/
> control the system charging voltage? Tell us a story
> my friend!
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
========================= Use utilities Day ================================================ - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ================================================ - List Contribution Web Site sp; ===================================================
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[quote][b]
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jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:25 pm Post subject: Batteries. |
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You are correct .. Using the battery will heat it up (wasted energy) ... Problem can be that the battery now have to be oversized to allow you to start in the first place ... Or you have to put small load on it ... Gradually increased that load so the cell temp reaches the spec as per the supplier info So that you now can pull the big load you require.. By then your pack might be flat .. If it is to small ..and it is to cold to start with...
All the best
Jan
On Sep 29, 2014, at 9:57, <ARGOLDMAN(at)aol.com (ARGOLDMAN(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote] There is also an old saying that goes something like, when all fails, read the instructions. My reading of the LiFePo batteries documentation from several sources says that when very cold, the initial start attemp will warm the battery after which the engine will start normally.
Rich
In a message dated 9/28/2014 6:38:26 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK (jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK) writes:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jan <jan(at)claver.demon.co.uk (jan(at)claver.demon.co.uk)>
When you ran this Li-ion pack at home did you do so inside at room temperature ?
Then you took it outside and got the poor performance ?
Always look at what the supplier quote as normal operating temperature of the pack. The other issue is that Li-ion has many more flavours than your old fashioned lead battery, hence a much wider operating envelope. When talking about Li-ion you need to know the specific chemistry - iron phosphate or cobalt etc.... And what type of cell is used .. Pouch cell or round etc... Each type has its advantages and disadvantages ... .
The old saying that you have " liars, liars and battery suppliers " is still very true ... Especially with Li-ion ...
All the best
Jan
| Quote: | On Sep 29, 2014, at 5:47, "H. Marvin Haught" <handainc(at)madisoncounty.net (handainc(at)madisoncounty.net)> wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "H. Marvin Haught" <handainc(at)madisoncounty.net (handainc(at)madisoncounty.net)>
The first I tried was for my CPAP machine. I like to camp and do so often, and was having to carry a 12 to 18 pound battery around to power the CPAP. Respronics makes a 14.8 V/6.6AH LI-ON battery pack. Kinda pricey at $352, comes in it's own little travel case, with a dedicated charger unit. Charged it up fully and used it one night at home. It lasted all night, so I thought I was good to go. Camping, it only lasted 4 hours and then quit. I charged it all day from the airplane, and again, it only lasted 4 hours. I used the airplane battery (the one I posted earlier) after that, and it would run the CPAP all night, and still start the airplane the next day. I've have tried the LI-ION Battery pack several times since then, and 4 hours is all the service I get. Very dis-satifactory especially considering the price. Plus, in cold weather, it won't run the CPAP for more than an hour or so.
The second was when I sold my airplane and flew it to Alaska. The new owner bought an AeroVoltz 8 cell at 1.8 pounds to replace the UTV Battery. At that time, it came with a special charger, in case you ever completely discharged the battery. While the battery did okay on the trip, we had to take the battery cover off of the box because it was getting so hot. After we got to Alaska, he said it only lasted a few weeks until the first cold spell, and then it would not turn over the engine on cold mornings. It was being charged by a standard generator that showed 13.5 charging volts through a Zeftronics regulator. Engine was a Lycoming 0290-D.
Limited story and probably will not yield any useful info, but that is the most of which I think I know!
M. Haught
> On Sep 28, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>
>
> At 12:29 2014-09-28, you wrote:
>> Am looking forward to Bob's article on the lithium batteries.....I've tried a couple with very disappointing results.
>
> Which ones have you tried? What kind of alternator?
> What size engine. What kind of starter?
>
> How do you use your airplane? Were you able to monitor/
> control the system charging voltage? Tell us a story
> my friend!
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
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