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Ernie

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:08 am Post subject: Air system Flush

Anyone have any suggestions on flushing out the air lines of a CJ? I was just thinking of injecting a little tool oil just beyond the desiccant, and disconnect the B-Nuts at all the actuators and then empty a few scuba bottles through the systems while actuating the Gear and Flap handles. 



Thoughts???

Thanks

ErnieÂ 



  [quote][b]

Viperdoc

Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A

Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:22 pm Post subject: Air system Flush

Ernie,

As I understand, the Chinese rubber does not like tool oil. 

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Aug 24, 2014, at 2:05 PM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]Anyone have any suggestions on flushing out the air lines of a CJ? I was just thinking of injecting a little tool oil just beyond the desiccant, and disconnect the B-Nuts at all the actuators and then empty a few scuba bottles through the systems while actuating the Gear and Flap handles. 



Thoughts???

Thanks

Ernie 



   	  Quote: 	
		  

	


[b]

_________________
Viperdoc

Ernie

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:33 am Post subject: Air system Flush

I'm hearing conflicting reports about that. Not sure what is accurate. I'll just use castor oil to be safe.



Thanks

Ernie



 



On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:21 PM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc(at)me.com (f16viperdoc(at)me.com)> wrote:

[quote] Ernie,

As I understand, the Chinese rubber does not like tool oil.Â 

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Aug 24, 2014, at 2:05 PM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 



 	  Quote: 	
		  Anyone have any suggestions on flushing out the air lines of a CJ? I was just thinking of injecting a little tool oil just beyond the desiccant, and disconnect the B-Nuts at all the actuators and then empty a few scuba bottles through the systems while actuating the Gear and Flap handles.  



Thoughts???

Thanks

ErnieÂ 



   	  Quote: 	
		  

	






3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



	


[b]

jblake207(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:50 am Post subject: Air system Flush

Ernie, 

  

Not saying Doc is wrong, but I introduce a couple ounces of air tool oil into my airplane each year on the condition inspection.  I do this by simply squirting the air tool oil down the scuba hose then connecting the hose to the Schrader valve on the airplane and opening the scuba tank thus forcing the oil from the hose to the main air system.  BJ told me to do this when I first bought the airplane 9 years ago and I haven't had any issues.  I did get Doug to rebuild a MLG actuator and I replaced the shuttle valves in the first couple years I owned the airplane, but no trouble since then.  The other thing I do that I think is a big help to the air system is to replace the filter elements and desiccant every few months or about 50 hours. I should increase the frequency given the humidity here near the Gulf coast.  

  

Hope this helps. 

 JB

   From: "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29(at)gmail.com>

To: "Yak-List" <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 7:31:59 AM

Subject: Re: Air system Flush

 



 I'm hearing conflicting reports about that. Not sure what is accurate. I'll just use castor oil to be safe. 



 Thanks

 



 Ernie



 

 



 On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:21 PM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc(at)me.com (f16viperdoc(at)me.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		    Ernie,

 As I understand, the Chinese rubber does not like tool oil. 

 Doc

 



Sent from my iPad

  

On Aug 24, 2014, at 2:05 PM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		    Anyone have any suggestions on flushing out the air lines of a CJ? I was just thinking of injecting a little tool oil just beyond the desiccant, and disconnect the B-Nuts at all the actuators and then empty a few scuba bottles through the systems while actuating the Gear and Flap handles. 



 Thoughts???

 



 Thanks

 



 Ernie 



 	  Quote: 	
		  

	






3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



	






et=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

p://forums.matronics.com

blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


 

 [quote][b]

Ernie

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:19 am Post subject: Air system Flush

Yea, Smilely told me the same thing. But I don't like the idea of injecting the oil at the service port, not sure I want oil going through the desiccant.Â 



On Monday, August 25, 2014,  <jblake207(at)comcast.net (jblake207(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

 [quote] 

Ernie, 

Â  

Not saying Doc is wrong, but I introduce a couple ounces of air tool oil into my airplane each year on the condition inspection.Â  I do this by simply squirting the air tool oil down the scuba hose then connecting the hose to the Schrader valve on the airplane and opening the scuba tank thus forcing the oil from the hose to the main air system.Â  BJ told me to do this when I first bought the airplane 9 years ago and I haven't had any issues.Â  I did get Doug to rebuild a MLG actuator and I replaced the shuttle valves in the first couple years I owned the airplane, but no trouble since then.Â  The other thing I do that I think is a big help to the air system is to replace the filter elements and desiccant every few months or about 50 hours. I should increase the frequency given the humidity here near the Gulf coast.   

Â  

Hope this helps. 

Â JB

    From: "Ernest Martinez" <[url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','erniel29(at)gmail.com');]erniel29(at)gmail.com[/url]>

 To: "Yak-List" <[url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','yak-list(at)matronics.com');]yak-list(at)matronics.com[/url]>

Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 7:31:59 AM

Subject: Re: Air system Flush

  



 I'm hearing conflicting reports about that. Not sure what is accurate. I'll just use castor oil to be safe. 



 Thanks

 



 Ernie



 

 



 On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:21 PM, Roger Kemp <[url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','f16viperdoc(at)me.com');]f16viperdoc(at)me.com[/url]> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		    Ernie,

 As I understand, the Chinese rubber does not like tool oil.Â 

 Doc

 



Sent from my iPad

  

On Aug 24, 2014, at 2:05 PM, Ernest Martinez <[url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','erniel29(at)gmail.com');]erniel29(at)gmail.com[/url]> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		    Anyone have any suggestions on flushing out the air lines of a CJ? I was just thinking of injecting a little tool oil just beyond the desiccant, and disconnect the B-Nuts at all the actuators and then empty a few scuba bottles through the systems while actuating the Gear and Flap handles. 



 Thoughts???

 



 Thanks

 



 ErnieÂ 



 	  Quote: 	
		  

	






3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



	






et=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

p://forums.matronics.com

blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


 

  	  Quote: 	
		  



et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


[b]

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:42 am Post subject: Air system Flush

As regards "conflicting reports" when all else fails read the manual.   Task cards indicate the exact amount of "what" and exactly "where" a very small amount is to be put in.  



As far as injecting "Air Tool Oil", that is an urban legend that can usually be traced back to some previous owner saying "He did it all the time", and if you go back still further, you can find it in the Yak List Archives going back 12 years or so ago.  



There is no instruction for "flushing the lines out", but if that action was deemed necessary for whatever reason, the best course of action would be to isolate the line by disconnecting it at both ends, and then blowing it out with an inert gas such as nitrogen.  I'd be very curious as to how the pneumatic air lines in these aircraft would ever get to the point of needing "flushing", especially if filters are maintained.  



That said, "Air Tool Oil" can indeed cause rapid deterioration of the seals used in the landing gear actuators of a YAK-50.  I know from very close and up front personal experience in my aircraft after following that advice from the YAK List recommendations, many many years ago which gave me my first experience using Emergency Gear Blow Down.  



But it is not really quite as simple as that.  A lot of this issue has to do with the age of the seals, and whether they have been replaced (actuators rebuilt) recently, and what material might have been used with the new seals.   Over time the original seals tend to harden.  If a seal such as this is exposed to Pneumatic Tool Oil, the seals will soften and then break apart.  This is why some folks who have put this "stuff" into their systems have seen immediate failure and others have not. 



In the end, I tend to stick with what the original manufacturer of these aircraft recommended and let everyone else debate the wisdom of putting a foreign substance into such a critical component as landing gear actuators.   A smart move might be to remove, rebuild, and then replace all actuators on these aircraft on some type of scheduled basis, and not fly them until failure.  



Mark Bitterlich

--

Ernie

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:57 am Post subject: Air system Flush

When you open up a diverter valve and see it encrusted with rust and gunk, and the log books show repeated replacement of Flap and Gear valves and actuators, then you assume that the air system was NOT maintained properly. So......I'm pulling all the diverters since they act like little sediment traps, and rebuilding them all, AND I'm going to assume that all this rust and gunk is throughout the air system. Which also means pulling the air bottles cause who knows what shape they're in and is probably the source of the rust. Log books say they were Hydro tested last year, but I don't believe anything that was written by a particular mechanic for a Well Known CJ importer/builder/seller, after some of the things I've found. 



Actually a very trusted IA that I know brought up an interesting point yesterday. How in the world can we legally get these bottles Hydro Tested? They're not DOT approved. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm actually considering just using Scuba bottles instead.

 



Ernie



On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

  

 As regards "conflicting reports" when all else fails read the manual.Â  Â Task cards indicate the exact amount of "what" and exactly "where" a very small amount is to be put in.

 

 As far as injecting "Air Tool Oil", that is an urban legend that can usually be traced back to some previous owner saying "He did it all the time", and if you go back still further, you can find it in the Yak List Archives going back 12 years or so ago.

  

 There is no instruction for "flushing the lines out", but if that action was deemed necessary for whatever reason, the best course of action would be to isolate the line by disconnecting it at both ends, and then blowing it out with an inert gas such as nitrogen.Â  I'd be very curious as to how the pneumatic air lines in these aircraft would ever get to the point of needing "flushing", especially if filters are maintained.

  

 That said, "Air Tool Oil" can indeed cause rapid deterioration of the seals used in the landing gear actuators of a YAK-50.Â  I know from very close and up front personal experience in my aircraft after following that advice from the YAK List recommendations, many many years ago which gave me my first experience using Emergency Gear Blow Down.

  

 But it is not really quite as simple as that.Â  A lot of this issue has to do with the age of the seals, and whether they have been replaced (actuators rebuilt) recently, and what material might have been used with the new seals.Â  Â Over time the original seals tend to harden.Â  If a seal such as this is exposed to Pneumatic Tool Oil, the seals will soften and then break apart.Â  This is why some folks who have put this "stuff" into their systems have seen immediate failure and others have not.

  

 In the end, I tend to stick with what the original manufacturer of these aircraft recommended and let everyone else debate the wisdom of putting a foreign substance into such a critical component as landing gear actuators.Â  Â A smart move might be to remove, rebuild, and then replace all actuators on these aircraft on some type of scheduled basis, and not fly them until failure.

  

 Mark Bitterlich

 

 

 --

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:20 am Post subject: Air system Flush

You might also consider a bore scope to look for signs of internal corrosion on the bottles themselves.



I am not sure what you mean by saying the bottles are not "DOT approved".  Nothing in the aircraft is approved by anyone in this country, hence the Experimental status of the aircraft, and the whole reason for "Conditional Inspections", which basically say to the FAA that the aircraft is in a safe "condition" to fly for another year.



It is true that various owners have replaced the original bottles with other designs, usually due to a lack of OEM parts.   Regarding getting the stock bottles tested, my view boils down to the simple question of "should you get them tested or not get them tested"?   The answer (to me)  is an obvious "yes", in that the bottle is removed, the interior inspected for corrosion, and the bottle is tested to verify that it can hold recommended pressures safely.  The goal is not to get a DOT certification of the bottle itself, but to simply verify that it is safe using standard high pressure bottle procedures.



I understand the IA's concern as his mind goes to standard aircraft certification immediately and not Experimental.  The actual issue might be that in certain cases hydro testing stations will refuse to do the testing due to the lack of a DOT stamp on the bottle.



In the end it is up to the individual owner of the aircraft to make such decisions working with the A&P mechanic in due course of his aircraft's maintenance.



Mark

--

Ernie

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:25 am Post subject: Air system Flush

I have been enlightened through back channels of DOT approved hydro testers on the bottles.



Ernie



On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:19 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

  

 

You might also consider a bore scope to look for signs of internal corrosion on the bottles themselves.

 

 I am not sure what you mean by saying the bottles are not "DOT approved".Â  Nothing in the aircraft is approved by anyone in this country, hence the Experimental status of the aircraft, and the whole reason for "Conditional Inspections", which basically say to the FAA that the aircraft is in a safe "condition" to fly for another year.

  

 It is true that various owners have replaced the original bottles with other designs, usually due to a lack of OEM parts.Â  Â Regarding getting the stock bottles tested, my view boils down to the simple question of "should you get them tested or not get them tested"?Â  Â The answer (to me)Â  is an obvious "yes", in that the bottle is removed, the interior inspected for corrosion, and the bottle is tested to verify that it can hold recommended pressures safely.Â  The goal is not to get a DOT certification of the bottle itself, but to simply verify that it is safe using standard high pressure bottle procedures.

  

 I understand the IA's concern as his mind goes to standard aircraft certification immediately and not Experimental.Â  The actual issue might be that in certain cases hydro testing stations will refuse to do the testing due to the lack of a DOT stamp on the bottle.

  

 In the end it is up to the individual owner of the aircraft to make such decisions working with the A&P mechanic in due course of his aircraft's maintenance.

 

 Mark

 

 

 --

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:34 am Post subject: Air system Flush

Call Doug.  He can         give you the name of the company that cleans           and tests the bottles for the           CJ.  You can also call Jill at M14P and             she can have the bottles tested.  I'm certain neither requires             DOT approval.

               Dennis

                     	  Quote: 	
		  A. Dennis Savarese

334-285-6263

334-546-8182 (mobile)

www.yak-52.com

Skype - Yakguy1 	
       On 8/25/2014 12:24 PM, Ernest Martinez wrote:

     

     [quote]       I have been enlightened through back channels of         DOT approved hydro testers on the bottles.         

         

         Ernie

       

       

         

         On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:19 PM,           Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>           wrote:

           [quote]             --> Yak-List message posted by:               "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

               

             

             You might also consider a bore scope to look for signs of             internal corrosion on the bottles themselves.

             

             I am not sure what you mean by saying the bottles are not             "DOT approved".  Nothing in the aircraft is approved by             anyone in this country, hence the Experimental status of the             aircraft, and the whole reason for "Conditional             Inspections", which basically say to the FAA that the             aircraft is in a safe "condition" to fly for another year.

             

             It is true that various owners have replaced the original             bottles with other designs, usually due to a lack of OEM             parts.   Regarding getting the stock bottles tested, my view             boils down to the simple question of "should you get them             tested or not get them tested"?   The answer (to me)  is an             obvious "yes", in that the bottle is removed, the interior             inspected for corrosion, and the bottle is tested to verify             that it can hold recommended pressures safely.  The goal is             not to get a DOT certification of the bottle itself, but to             simply verify that it is safe using standard high pressure             bottle procedures.

             

             I understand the IA's concern as his mind goes to standard             aircraft certification immediately and not Experimental.              The actual issue might be that in certain cases hydro             testing stations will refuse to do the testing due to the             lack of a DOT stamp on the bottle.

             

             In the end it is up to the individual owner of the aircraft             to make such decisions working with the A&P mechanic in             due course of his aircraft's maintenance.

             

             Mark

             

               

               --

Ernie

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:41 am Post subject: Air system Flush

Thanks Dennis,



Currently looking for someone locally. Also perusing the archives for the size of the bottle fitting, unless someone already knows that off hand 



 



On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:32 PM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:

[quote]                    Call Doug.Â  He can         give you the name of the company that cleans           and tests the bottles for the           CJ.Â  You can also call Jill at M14P and             she can have the bottles tested.Â  I'm certain neither requires             DOT approval.

               Dennis

                     	  Quote: 	
		  A. Dennis Savarese

[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]

[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)

www.yak-52.com

Skype - Yakguy1 	
       On 8/25/2014 12:24 PM, Ernest Martinez wrote:

     

     [quote]       I have been enlightened through back channels of         DOT approved hydro testers on the bottles.         

         

         Ernie

       

       

         

         On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:19 PM,           Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>           wrote:

           [quote]             --> Yak-List message posted by:               "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

               

             

             You might also consider a bore scope to look for signs of             internal corrosion on the bottles themselves.

             

             I am not sure what you mean by saying the bottles are not             "DOT approved".Â  Nothing in the aircraft is approved by             anyone in this country, hence the Experimental status of the             aircraft, and the whole reason for "Conditional             Inspections", which basically say to the FAA that the             aircraft is in a safe "condition" to fly for another year.

             

             It is true that various owners have replaced the original             bottles with other designs, usually due to a lack of OEM             parts.Â  Â Regarding getting the stock bottles tested, my view             boils down to the simple question of "should you get them             tested or not get them tested"?Â  Â The answer (to me)Â  is an             obvious "yes", in that the bottle is removed, the interior             inspected for corrosion, and the bottle is tested to verify             that it can hold recommended pressures safely.Â  The goal is             not to get a DOT certification of the bottle itself, but to             simply verify that it is safe using standard high pressure             bottle procedures.

             

             I understand the IA's concern as his mind goes to standard             aircraft certification immediately and not Experimental.Â              The actual issue might be that in certain cases hydro             testing stations will refuse to do the testing due to the             lack of a DOT stamp on the bottle.

             

             In the end it is up to the individual owner of the aircraft             to make such decisions working with the A&P mechanic in             due course of his aircraft's maintenance.

             

             Mark

             

               

               --

dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:46 am Post subject: Air system Flush

Mark,In theory you are correct but if the CJ has suffered from neglect all bets are off. Â Once the system becomes saturated with water, springs start to rust, incorrect desiccant is sometime used which when wet it can cause corrosion, miracle lubricants are use which attack the rubber, any and all of these things when mixed with high pressure air can create a pretty nasty concoction which can easily line the air lines. Â Rather alcohol will remove it I do not know. Â 

 



I have been toying with the idea of installing a second desiccant filter just before the gear and flap valves. Â True won't solve the problem at hand but might help to prevent the short life span of the gear and flap valves which we are seeing currently.Â 

 



Doug



On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 10:19 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

  

 

You might also consider a bore scope to look for signs of internal corrosion on the bottles themselves.

 

 I am not sure what you mean by saying the bottles are not "DOT approved".Â  Nothing in the aircraft is approved by anyone in this country, hence the Experimental status of the aircraft, and the whole reason for "Conditional Inspections", which basically say to the FAA that the aircraft is in a safe "condition" to fly for another year.

  

 It is true that various owners have replaced the original bottles with other designs, usually due to a lack of OEM parts.Â  Â Regarding getting the stock bottles tested, my view boils down to the simple question of "should you get them tested or not get them tested"?Â  Â The answer (to me)Â  is an obvious "yes", in that the bottle is removed, the interior inspected for corrosion, and the bottle is tested to verify that it can hold recommended pressures safely.Â  The goal is not to get a DOT certification of the bottle itself, but to simply verify that it is safe using standard high pressure bottle procedures.

  

 I understand the IA's concern as his mind goes to standard aircraft certification immediately and not Experimental.Â  The actual issue might be that in certain cases hydro testing stations will refuse to do the testing due to the lack of a DOT stamp on the bottle.

  

 In the end it is up to the individual owner of the aircraft to make such decisions working with the A&P mechanic in due course of his aircraft's maintenance.

 

 Mark

 

 

 --

Ernie

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:09 am Post subject: Air system Flush

Doug,



I was considering your additional filter suggestion so I looked at the air schematic, and don't see much to be gained putting it upstream of the Flap and Gear handles. The current filter is only 1 check valve and 1 direct line to the gear handle, and 2 check valves to the flap handle. If moisture is the culprit, wouldn't a bigger desiccant filter be the better option OR, a desiccant filter between the bottle and the main air valve? This way you double dry the air before it gets to or from the bottle.

 



Ernie



On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:44 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]Mark,In theory you are correct but if the CJ has suffered from neglect all bets are off. Â Once the system becomes saturated with water, springs start to rust, incorrect desiccant is sometime used which when wet it can cause corrosion, miracle lubricants are use which attack the rubber, any and all of these things when mixed with high pressure air can create a pretty nasty concoction which can easily line the air lines. Â Rather alcohol will remove it I do not know. Â 

  



I have been toying with the idea of installing a second desiccant filter just before the gear and flap valves. Â True won't solve the problem at hand but might help to prevent the short life span of the gear and flap valves which we are seeing currently.Â 

  



Doug



On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 10:19 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:

  [quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

   

 

You might also consider a bore scope to look for signs of internal corrosion on the bottles themselves.

 

 I am not sure what you mean by saying the bottles are not "DOT approved".Â  Nothing in the aircraft is approved by anyone in this country, hence the Experimental status of the aircraft, and the whole reason for "Conditional Inspections", which basically say to the FAA that the aircraft is in a safe "condition" to fly for another year.

   

 It is true that various owners have replaced the original bottles with other designs, usually due to a lack of OEM parts.Â  Â Regarding getting the stock bottles tested, my view boils down to the simple question of "should you get them tested or not get them tested"?Â  Â The answer (to me)Â  is an obvious "yes", in that the bottle is removed, the interior inspected for corrosion, and the bottle is tested to verify that it can hold recommended pressures safely.Â  The goal is not to get a DOT certification of the bottle itself, but to simply verify that it is safe using standard high pressure bottle procedures.

   

 I understand the IA's concern as his mind goes to standard aircraft certification immediately and not Experimental.Â  The actual issue might be that in certain cases hydro testing stations will refuse to do the testing due to the lack of a DOT stamp on the bottle.

   

 In the end it is up to the individual owner of the aircraft to make such decisions working with the A&P mechanic in due course of his aircraft's maintenance.

 

 Mark

 

 

 --

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:28 am Post subject: Air system Flush

Thanks Doug, I agree whole-heartedly.  That said, how to clean out the lines?   I don't think you can "flush the system" as one complete unit.   You'd pretty much have to blow the lines out individually,  inspect and clean each part one at a time, and basically rebuild the entire system.



I have zero experience with the CJ's gear and flap valves,  but appreciate your issue.



Mark

--

Viperdoc

Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:35 am Post subject: Air system Flush

Has been done. Check with Dee Conger (sp possibly).

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Aug 25, 2014, at 11:55 AM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]When you open up a diverter valve and see it encrusted with rust and gunk, and the log books show repeated replacement of Flap and Gear valves and actuators, then you assume that the air system was NOT maintained properly. So......I'm pulling all the diverters since they act like little sediment traps, and rebuilding them all, AND I'm going to assume that all this rust and gunk is throughout the air system. Which also means pulling the air bottles cause who knows what shape they're in and is probably the source of the rust. Log books say they were Hydro tested last year, but I don't believe anything that was written by a particular mechanic for a Well Known CJ importer/builder/seller, after some of the things I've found. 



Actually a very trusted IA that I know brought up an interesting point yesterday. How in the world can we legally get these bottles Hydro Tested? They're not DOT approved. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm actually considering just using Scuba bottles instead.

 



Ernie



On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

  

 As regards "conflicting reports" when all else fails read the manual.   Task cards indicate the exact amount of "what" and exactly "where" a very small amount is to be put in.

 

 As far as injecting "Air Tool Oil", that is an urban legend that can usually be traced back to some previous owner saying "He did it all the time", and if you go back still further, you can find it in the Yak List Archives going back 12 years or so ago.

  

 There is no instruction for "flushing the lines out", but if that action was deemed necessary for whatever reason, the best course of action would be to isolate the line by disconnecting it at both ends, and then blowing it out with an inert gas such as nitrogen.  I'd be very curious as to how the pneumatic air lines in these aircraft would ever get to the point of needing "flushing", especially if filters are maintained.

  

 That said, "Air Tool Oil" can indeed cause rapid deterioration of the seals used in the landing gear actuators of a YAK-50.  I know from very close and up front personal experience in my aircraft after following that advice from the YAK List recommendations, many many years ago which gave me my first experience using Emergency Gear Blow Down.

  

 But it is not really quite as simple as that.  A lot of this issue has to do with the age of the seals, and whether they have been replaced (actuators rebuilt) recently, and what material might have been used with the new seals.   Over time the original seals tend to harden.  If a seal such as this is exposed to Pneumatic Tool Oil, the seals will soften and then break apart.  This is why some folks who have put this "stuff" into their systems have seen immediate failure and others have not.

  

 In the end, I tend to stick with what the original manufacturer of these aircraft recommended and let everyone else debate the wisdom of putting a foreign substance into such a critical component as landing gear actuators.   A smart move might be to remove, rebuild, and then replace all actuators on these aircraft on some type of scheduled basis, and not fly them until failure.

  

 Mark Bitterlich

 

 

 --

_________________
Viperdoc

Ernie

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:38 am Post subject: Air system Flush

Actually, provided that the flow restricters don't get plugged. If you remove all the divertersÂ and disconnect the brake connections at the wheels, you blow the entire system using a continuous source of air at the charging port and just exercise the flap and gear handles. This would flush about 95% of the system. I would inject alcohol/castor oil upstream of the desiccant filter though. 



Ernie



On Monday, August 25, 2014, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:

[quote] --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <[url=javascript:;]mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil[/url]>

 

 Thanks Doug, I agree whole-heartedly.Â  That said, how to clean out the lines?Â  Â I don't think you can "flush the system" as one complete unit.Â  Â You'd pretty much have to blow the lines out individually,Â  inspect and clean each part one at a time, and basically rebuild the entire system.

  

 I have zero experience with the CJ's gear and flap valves,Â  but appreciate your issue.

 

 Mark

 

 

 --

k7wx

Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 117

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:38 am Post subject: Air system Flush

Mark,



After buying my CJ, I began the methodical process of going through the pneumatic system. The actuators were not disassembled and have since been replaced, thanks to your advice. I looked at the check valves, emergency valves, gear valves and flap valves. What I found was amazing. Attached is a representative picture of a firewall check valve. Some springs were completely dissolved and the gear and flap valves looked like they were coated in a combination of sand and chocolate pudding. As you point out, all bets are off for a system that is not properly cared for.

Even though corrosion within the pneumatic system may not always be symptomatic, it can still be impressive and pervasive. If you see one valve that looks bad, chances are good that others are similar. 

Warren Hill

N464TW

Mesa, AZ





[img]cid:EF8AA366-834E-46CB-A899-4EC270DFA47C[/img]

 

On Aug 25, 2014, at 11:27 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:



[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>



Thanks Doug, I agree whole-heartedly.  That said, how to clean out the lines?   I don't think you can "flush the system" as one complete unit.   You'd pretty much have to blow the lines out individually,  inspect and clean each part one at a time, and basically rebuild the entire system.



I have zero experience with the CJ's gear and flap valves,  but appreciate your issue.



Mark

--

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jackpot

Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Posts: 65
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:11 pm Post subject: Air system Flush

I have had my air bottles hydro checked by Jill and Carl at M-14P.  They have a Way of doing it.  Gary Gbbard.   LAS.   N22YK.  



Sent from my iPad



On Aug 25, 2014, at 10:40, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]Thanks Dennis,



Currently looking for someone locally. Also perusing the archives for the size of the bottle fitting, unless someone already knows that off hand 



 



On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:32 PM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:

[quote]                    Call Doug.  He can         give you the name of the company that cleans           and tests the bottles for the           CJ.  You can also call Jill at M14P and             she can have the bottles tested.  I'm certain neither requires             DOT approval.

               Dennis

                     	  Quote: 	
		  A. Dennis Savarese

[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]

[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)

www.yak-52.com

Skype - Yakguy1 	
       On 8/25/2014 12:24 PM, Ernest Martinez wrote:

     

     [quote]       I have been enlightened through back channels of         DOT approved hydro testers on the bottles.         

         

         Ernie

       

       

         

         On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:19 PM,           Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>           wrote:

           [quote]             --> Yak-List message posted by:               "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

               

             

             You might also consider a bore scope to look for signs of             internal corrosion on the bottles themselves.

             

             I am not sure what you mean by saying the bottles are not             "DOT approved".  Nothing in the aircraft is approved by             anyone in this country, hence the Experimental status of the             aircraft, and the whole reason for "Conditional             Inspections", which basically say to the FAA that the             aircraft is in a safe "condition" to fly for another year.

             

             It is true that various owners have replaced the original             bottles with other designs, usually due to a lack of OEM             parts.   Regarding getting the stock bottles tested, my view             boils down to the simple question of "should you get them             tested or not get them tested"?   The answer (to me)  is an             obvious "yes", in that the bottle is removed, the interior             inspected for corrosion, and the bottle is tested to verify             that it can hold recommended pressures safely.  The goal is             not to get a DOT certification of the bottle itself, but to             simply verify that it is safe using standard high pressure             bottle procedures.

             

             I understand the IA's concern as his mind goes to standard             aircraft certification immediately and not Experimental.              The actual issue might be that in certain cases hydro             testing stations will refuse to do the testing due to the             lack of a DOT stamp on the bottle.

             

             In the end it is up to the individual owner of the aircraft             to make such decisions working with the A&P mechanic in             due course of his aircraft's maintenance.

             

             Mark

             

               

               --

Viperdoc

Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:02 pm Post subject: Air system Flush

By a place in LA. Have to dig back through my notes. I have the contact info in some of my junk. Working on a place in Ga. That will do it also since they do not have to carry a DZoZt cert.

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Aug 25, 2014, at 4:10 PM, Gary Gabbard <ggg6(at)att.net (ggg6(at)att.net)> wrote:

[quote]I have had my air bottles hydro checked by Jill and Carl at M-14P.  They have a Way of doing it.  Gary Gbbard.   LAS.   N22YK.  



Sent from my iPad



On Aug 25, 2014, at 10:40, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]Thanks Dennis,



Currently looking for someone locally. Also perusing the archives for the size of the bottle fitting, unless someone already knows that off hand 



 



On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:32 PM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:

[quote]                    Call Doug.  He can         give you the name of the company that cleans           and tests the bottles for the           CJ.  You can also call Jill at M14P and             she can have the bottles tested.  I'm certain neither requires             DOT approval.

               Dennis

                     	  Quote: 	
		  A. Dennis Savarese

[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]

[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)

www.yak-52.com

Skype - Yakguy1 	
       On 8/25/2014 12:24 PM, Ernest Martinez wrote:

     

     [quote]       I have been enlightened through back channels of         DOT approved hydro testers on the bottles.         

         

         Ernie

       

       

         

         On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:19 PM,           Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>           wrote:

           [quote]             --> Yak-List message posted by:               "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

               

             

             You might also consider a bore scope to look for signs of             internal corrosion on the bottles themselves.

             

             I am not sure what you mean by saying the bottles are not             "DOT approved".  Nothing in the aircraft is approved by             anyone in this country, hence the Experimental status of the             aircraft, and the whole reason for "Conditional             Inspections", which basically say to the FAA that the             aircraft is in a safe "condition" to fly for another year.

             

             It is true that various owners have replaced the original             bottles with other designs, usually due to a lack of OEM             parts.   Regarding getting the stock bottles tested, my view             boils down to the simple question of "should you get them             tested or not get them tested"?   The answer (to me)  is an             obvious "yes", in that the bottle is removed, the interior             inspected for corrosion, and the bottle is tested to verify             that it can hold recommended pressures safely.  The goal is             not to get a DOT certification of the bottle itself, but to             simply verify that it is safe using standard high pressure             bottle procedures.

             

             I understand the IA's concern as his mind goes to standard             aircraft certification immediately and not Experimental.              The actual issue might be that in certain cases hydro             testing stations will refuse to do the testing due to the             lack of a DOT stamp on the bottle.

             

             In the end it is up to the individual owner of the aircraft             to make such decisions working with the A&P mechanic in             due course of his aircraft's maintenance.

             

             Mark

             

               

               --

_________________
Viperdoc

Viperdoc

Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:32 pm Post subject: Air system Flush

Apple what a trip! DOT. 

DOC



Sent from my iPad



On Aug 25, 2014, at 9:59 PM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc(at)me.com (f16viperdoc(at)me.com)> wrote:

[quote]By a place in LA. Have to dig back through my notes. I have the contact info in some of my junk. Working on a place in Ga. That will do it also since they do not have to carry a DZoZt cert.

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Aug 25, 2014, at 4:10 PM, Gary Gabbard <ggg6(at)att.net (ggg6(at)att.net)> wrote:

[quote]I have had my air bottles hydro checked by Jill and Carl at M-14P.  They have a Way of doing it.  Gary Gbbard.   LAS.   N22YK.  



Sent from my iPad



On Aug 25, 2014, at 10:40, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]Thanks Dennis,



Currently looking for someone locally. Also perusing the archives for the size of the bottle fitting, unless someone already knows that off hand 



 



On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:32 PM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:

[quote]                    Call Doug.  He can         give you the name of the company that cleans           and tests the bottles for the           CJ.  You can also call Jill at M14P and             she can have the bottles tested.  I'm certain neither requires             DOT approval.

               Dennis

                     	  Quote: 	
		  A. Dennis Savarese

[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]

[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)

www.yak-52.com

Skype - Yakguy1 	
       On 8/25/2014 12:24 PM, Ernest Martinez wrote:

     

     [quote]       I have been enlightened through back channels of         DOT approved hydro testers on the bottles.         

         

         Ernie

       

       

         

         On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:19 PM,           Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>           wrote:

           [quote]             --> Yak-List message posted by:               "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>

               

             

             You might also consider a bore scope to look for signs of             internal corrosion on the bottles themselves.

             

             I am not sure what you mean by saying the bottles are not             "DOT approved".  Nothing in the aircraft is approved by             anyone in this country, hence the Experimental status of the             aircraft, and the whole reason for "Conditional             Inspections", which basically say to the FAA that the             aircraft is in a safe "condition" to fly for another year.

             

             It is true that various owners have replaced the original             bottles with other designs, usually due to a lack of OEM             parts.   Regarding getting the stock bottles tested, my view             boils down to the simple question of "should you get them             tested or not get them tested"?   The answer (to me)  is an             obvious "yes", in that the bottle is removed, the interior             inspected for corrosion, and the bottle is tested to verify             that it can hold recommended pressures safely.  The goal is             not to get a DOT certification of the bottle itself, but to             simply verify that it is safe using standard high pressure             bottle procedures.

             

             I understand the IA's concern as his mind goes to standard             aircraft certification immediately and not Experimental.              The actual issue might be that in certain cases hydro             testing stations will refuse to do the testing due to the             lack of a DOT stamp on the bottle.

             

             In the end it is up to the individual owner of the aircraft             to make such decisions working with the A&P mechanic in             due course of his aircraft's maintenance.

             

             Mark

             

               

               --

_________________
Viperdoc

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