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Mod 60 Europa Fuel Gauge
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Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:41 pm Post subject: Mod 60 Europa Fuel Gauge

Hi All.

Has anybody done Mod 60. The Europa Fuel sender fit,

I have looked at it and its not simple as the sender unit is placed in the headrest Pocket locker location and requires new hole cutting in the tank.

I would like to place the sender in the existing location of my sender which is in the middle of the tank, so as to use and modify my existing hole.

This would also be dependent on the length of the sender to touch the bottom of the middle of the tank with a setting of Zero ,this would leave a safety factor or the fuel in the saddle, which I think might be about 8 ltrs ?

So if anyone has fitted Mod 60, would my way be possible,



Thanks.

Alan

dpark748(at)icloud.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:40 pm Post subject: Mod 60 Europa Fuel Gauge

I used the bendable probes in to each side from the top inboard of the headrests. Never been reliable?

Dave



Sent from my iPad



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 28 Oct 2014, at 22:41, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi All.

 Has anybody done Mod 60. The Europa Fuel sender fit,

 I have looked at it and its not simple as the sender unit is placed in the headrest Pocket locker location and requires new hole cutting in the tank.

 I would like to place the sender in the existing location of my sender which is in the middle of the tank, so as to use and modify my existing hole.

 This would also be dependent on the length of the sender to touch the bottom of the middle of the tank with a setting of Zero ,this would leave a safety factor or the fuel in the saddle, which I think might be about 8 ltrs ?

 So if anyone has fitted Mod 60, would my way be possible,

 

 Thanks.

 Alan

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432431#432431

dg.watts(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:59 pm Post subject: Mod 60 Europa Fuel Gauge

Alan



Mod 60 has a sender probe that is a solid 1/2" diameter tube 13" long with a float around it. This would prevent you from locating any place other than the headrests as it can't be bent or cut down.



Dave Watts G-BXDY

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 28 Oct 2014, at 22:41, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi All.

 Has anybody done Mod 60. The Europa Fuel sender fit,

 I have looked at it and its not simple as the sender unit is placed in the headrest Pocket locker location and requires new hole cutting in the tank.

 I would like to place the sender in the existing location of my sender which is in the middle of the tank, so as to use and modify my existing hole.

 This would also be dependent on the length of the sender to touch the bottom of the middle of the tank with a setting of Zero ,this would leave a safety factor or the fuel in the saddle, which I think might be about 8 ltrs ?

 So if anyone has fitted Mod 60, would my way be possible,

 

 Thanks.

 Alan

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432431#432431

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:51 am Post subject: Mod 60 Europa Fuel Gauge

We once machined a wedge shaped mount to fit one in the centre. Not easy but we did it.

Graham

        From: David Watts <dg.watts(at)talktalk.net>

 To: "europa-list(at)matronics.com" <europa-list(at)matronics.com> 

 Sent: Wednesday, 29 October 2014, 7:58

 Subject: Re: Mod 60 Europa Fuel Gauge

--> Europa-List message posted  by: David Watts <dg.watts(at)talktalk.net (dg.watts(at)talktalk.net)>

Alan

Mod 60 has a sender probe that is a solid 1/2" diameter tube 13" long with a float around it. This would prevent you from locating any place other than the headrests as it can't be bent or cut down.

Dave Watts G-BXDY

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 28 Oct 2014, at 22:41, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)> wrote:

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)>

 Hi All.

 Has anybody done Mod 60. The Europa Fuel sender fit,

 I have looked at it and its not simple as the sender unit is placed in the headrest Pocket locker location and requires new hole  cutting in the tank.

 I would like to place the sender in the existing location of my sender which is in the middle of the tank, so as to use and modify my existing hole.

 This would also be dependent on the length of the sender to touch the bottom of the middle of the tank with a setting of Zero ,this would leave a safety factor or the fuel in the saddle, which I think might be about 8 ltrs ?

 So if anyone has fitted Mod 60, would my way be possible,

 Thanks.

 Alan

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432431#432431

 http://ww                     &nbsatronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contr================

 [quote][b]

spcialeffects

Joined: 29 Aug 2012
Posts: 306
Location: Kent

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:05 am Post subject: Re: Mod 60 Europa Fuel Gauge

Hi Alan. I'm building at the moment. Haven't boned on the top yet so have good access to bottom fuselage for visuals. Also I have a spare fuel tank and plenty of photos of my build which may be of use to you to see the inside of the tank and get a better understanding of what your wanting to do. I'm also in kent so if you want to pop round for a look your welcome.

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:43 am Post subject: Re: Mod 60 Europa Fuel Gauge

Hi All.

Why are things made so difficult, my sender fails, and I end up with a major fix, it should be just a job of un screwing and fitting a new one or an adaptor plate to fit a different one.

I am no builder, but I know I would have thought of this before and included it in my design and i,m no genius.

All I want is an Avelec sender rod, just un glue it at the top, pull it out and slid a new one in, connect the wires , job done,

Special effects, Can you tell me what the depth of the tank is at the centre,

Maybe I can mount it at an angle or find a sender or something that will do .

David said it was 13 " long , with a ruler can you give approximate angle.



Alan

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:16 am Post subject: Mod 60 Europa Fuel Gauge

I've never used a capacitance sender, but I think they can be cut to size if

they're too long? 

Could that help at all, or maybe I'm not following close enough here..



//

tell me what the depth of the tank is at the centre, Maybe I can mount it at

an angle or find a sender or something that will do .

//



Alan





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432448#432448

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Mod 60 Europa Fuel Gauge

Hello.

Yes I think you can cut them to length, Avelec still are not responding to e mail. 

At the moment I have a Plastic Boss with a sender mounted in the Boss at an angle of 30 degrees, If I can find something suitable, I would try to pull the old sender out of this plastic boss, and resin a new one in place.

This would require a complete kit, Sender, processer, and gauge.

But I can,t find one.???



I have a private mail , saying fitting the Europa sender was the most difficult job he had encountered due to its position.

Alan

graeme bird

Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Mod 60 Europa Fuel Gauge

Can you replace it with one from Airworld UK? I fitted that one, they are capacitance type that can be cut to length, the head is round though. Its reliable enough, although due to the shape of the tank is not very linear (reading half is more like a quarter).

Actually I find the sight gauge is best for a static on ground check when filling etc and  a EI FP5-L fuel flow instrument fairly spot on when in the air.

_________________
Graeme Bird
kit4 (Wagstaff) TBD
Kit3 G-CLXU (Gregory) mono 914 xs Woodcomp
Kit2 G-PATS - (kesterton) Mono Classic 912 warpdrive
Kit 1 G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS 912S, Woodcomp G(@)gdbmk.co.uk

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Mod 60 Europa Fuel Gauge

Hi.

That EI FP5-L  looks an expensive piece of kit, looks very nice,

I have just install the MGL have not calibrated it yet so don,t now how accurate it is,

Senders,  

I was looking at this one,



http://www.atlltd.com/upload_files/341/ELAD151%20%20152%20Level%20Probe%20Calibration%20Instructions%20012012.pdf



its in the car menu.



But the Air world might do the job, 

Seem to be making some head way now, thanks,



Alan

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:51 pm Post subject: Re: Mod 60 Europa Fuel Gauge

Hello All.

I think I can use one of the mentioned sender units.

The resistor type which can be cut to length, the Air world looks like it might do the trick,

The ridge rod sender placed in the original 30 degree sloping hole in the boss on the tank and resin bonded,

My concern is the small hole in the sender tube at the top.

this I think senses the maximum full level.

This hole will possible not be far enough down the tube, but will be in the plastic of the boss mounting.



Any Comment on this as to overcome the problem.



Alan

roddyeuropa(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:16 am Post subject: Mod 60 Europa Fuel Gauge

I mounted my float gauge just to the right of the headrest. There was room for it to reach the bottom of the tank straight down. No regrets on this. Has worked fine for 11 years but even with the more open access it's still very fiddly to fit the flange. I had to change the gasket a couple of years ago. 

Putting it there also gives better visibility of the inside of tank when the sender unit is out (easier to fish out the washer you drop trying to install the flange !)

I put my unit in before it came a Europa supplied kit so there is a chance the dimensions are different now, but I assumed it was the same unit.

Roddy kesterton

G-IKRK

Sent from my iPhone

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 29 Oct 2014, at 07:58, David Watts <dg.watts(at)talktalk.net> wrote:

 Alan

 Mod 60 has a sender probe that is a solid 1/2" diameter tube 13" long with a float around it. This would prevent you from locating any place other than the headrests as it can't be bent or cut down.

 Dave Watts G-BXDY

> On 28 Oct 2014, at 22:41, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> Hi All.

> Has anybody done Mod 60. The Europa Fuel sender fit,

> I have looked at it and its not simple as the sender unit is placed in the headrest Pocket locker location and requires new hole cutting in the tank.

> I would like to place the sender in the existing location of my sender which is in the middle of the tank, so as to use and modify my existing hole.

> This would also be dependent on the length of the sender to touch the bottom of the middle of the tank with a setting of Zero ,this would leave a safety factor or the fuel in the saddle, which I think might be about 8 ltrs ?

> So if anyone has fitted Mod 60, would my way be possible,

> 

> Thanks.

> Alan

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432431#432431

richard collings

Joined: 08 Jul 2011
Posts: 73
Location: warwickshire england

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:41 am Post subject: Mod 60 Europa Fuel Gauge

Hi Alan

Talk to Pete Smoothy at Airworld [uk] 01296 714900, I have one of his 

"Capacitance" fuel gauges fitted, not expensive, so I would not mess about 

but fit the complete system.

My sender unit is mounted on an inspection plate sited middle top of tank, 

the probe was bent so that it measures fuel in the main tank only.

Best of luck

Richard

G-CGZV

--

clivesutton

Joined: 23 Jan 2013
Posts: 187
Location: KENILWORTH

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Mod 60 Europa Fuel Gauge

Hello Alan,

I did MOD60 on my last Europa and used the Airworld capacitance probe bent and cut to length through a new hole near the RH seat headrest.  3 reasons for choosing the capacitance probe:  1) i think it and the supplied gauge are more accurate than the float type, 2) if i ever got water in the tank the capacitance gauge would go full scale - so an indication in all circumstances other than 'just filled up with fuel' - that water may be present and 3) i already had the float type in the LHS of the tank as well - AND the manometer quantity indicator - so I had several sources of info to cross-check with - yes i'm paranoid about the shame of inadvertently running out of fuel!  Based on that experience, if i had to choose one method, I'd choose the capacitance probe.  

Clive

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: Mod 60 Europa Fuel Gauge

Hello All.

My plan is to try to contact Avalec again next week, Failing this the Air World complete unit,

The plan would be to make up from plastic coated cloth and model aircraft tubing a small umbrella with fishing line connected to each rib going through the canter tube so as to pull it closed, this inserted through my original hole and opened, it will also float on the fuel. this  will catch any debris fall from my re shaping the hole with hand tools.



Then withdraw the umbrella and  fit the sender,

It will be bent to go down into the saddle of the main tank.



Alan

PS

It would be nice if i could connect the Airworld senders wires and joint the to the Avelac wires which are already there, maybe it will work with the avelec gauge  which has an adjustable processor, maybe worth a try.



I have had a couple of mails, saying fitting the Europa sender at the suggested place ,has been the most difficult jobs there have done, so it appears not an easy Mod

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:15 pm Post subject: Mod 60 Europa Fuel Gauge

That is OK if you only use one type of fuel.  If you calibrate it with Mogas

and then use Avgas you will get an inaccurate reading.



Brian Davies



--

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:38 pm Post subject: Mod 60 Europa Fuel Gauge

Only snag with Capacitance probe is the reading depends on the density of the fuel. 

It also depends how carefully the probe is bent. Not very robust.

It will give different readings with Avgas.

Float with reed switches is the most accurate. 

Graham





        From: Clive Sutton <clive.maf(at)googlemail.com>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Thursday, 30 October 2014, 19:28

 Subject: Re: Mod 60 Europa Fuel Gauge

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Clive Sutton" <clive.maf(at)googlemail.com (clive.maf(at)googlemail.com)>



Hello Alan,

I did MOD60 on my last Europa and used the Airworld capacitance probe bent and cut to length through a new hole near the RH seat headrest.  3 reasons for choosing the capacitance probe:  1) i think it and the supplied gauge are more accurate than the float type, 2) if i ever got water in the tank the capacitance gauge would go full scale - so an indication in all circumstances other than 'just filled up with fuel' - that water may be present and 3) i already had the float type in the LHS of the tank as well - AND the manometer quantity indicator - so I had several sources of info to cross-check with - yes i'm paranoid about the  shame of inadvertently running out of fuel!  Based on that experience, if i had to choose one method, I'd choose the capacitance probe.  

Clive





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=432573#432573



http://forums.matronics                    &nbsptronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contri================

 

  

  

 [quote][b]

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: Mod 60 Europa Fuel Gauge

Hi All.

My plane is certified for Avgas and Mogas, labels by filler cap.

I use Mogas so will calibrate it for that.

Flow meter far more accurate than any gauge, so I can live with a small error on the fuel gauge. 

Fuel gauge just a back up, but shows if I have a punctured tank but not expecting any dog fights.

Alan.



Maybe a ridged  sender at 30 degrees will touch the bottom of the tank from the middle.

If anybody building could look at the tank and "eye it up" so see

would be useful.

Alan

clivesutton

Joined: 23 Jan 2013
Posts: 187
Location: KENILWORTH

Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:04 am Post subject: Re: Mod 60 Europa Fuel Gauge

Graham, Brian:

Good points about the accuracy vs fuel density - i hadn't thought of that though i'm not sure what the worst case error could actually be.  I omitted to say that i also had a FF meter and whilst that is more accurate, it is only so if one remembers to dial in the amount of fuel added to the tank each time - since it only subtracts from its 'total' qty based upon the flow rate.  For this reason, i think any 'manual' gauge is a very useful cross-check.  I found the lumpy change in level with the magnet and pole type level sensor to be rather confusing occasionally.  Incidentally, I recently bought kit 121 that Gerry Cole started back in 1994 - he has fashioned (approved by Jon Tempest) a separate manometer style tube into which the float type sensor screws - enabling a manual check of fuel level - image below i hope.  Clive

Cole fuel gauge MOD.jpg

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Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:48 am Post subject: Mod 60 Europa Fuel Gauge

On Oct 31, 2014, at 6:38 AM, RoddyEuropa(at)aol.com (RoddyEuropa(at)aol.com) wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  I mounted my float gauge just to the right of the pilot's headrest. There was room for 

it to reach the bottom of the tank straight down. No regrets on this. Has worked 

fine for 11 years but even with the more open access it's still very fiddly to 

fit the flange. I had to change the gasket a couple of years ago. 

	
	


How I wish I’d been aware that this was possible when I installed mine…at the time, as I recall, there was a builder who claimed to have succeeded in following the directions for a retrofit within the head rest, but for the life of me I could never imagine how that was possible nor can I imagine how any maintenance can be performed through the inboard access hole if the gauge is located per build manual. 



I am satisfied however that if necessary, using my trusty razor saw, I will be able to remove, add flanges, and replace a portion of the head rest sufficient to provide access without compromising the structural integrity of the plate for the shoulder straps and the potential compression loads in the event of a hard landing.

F.

 [quote][b]

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