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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
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 Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 12:44 am Post subject: The Kolb Quit strikes again! |
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Well Kolbers I am completely humbled and embarrassed.
Because I got distracted by two or three (legitimately serious) things unrelated to the actual landing, I fell victim to the Kolb Quit and damn near wrecked Jimmy's new Mark 3 today.
I flew out to Camarillo in the 172 this morning early, and after some radio equipment issues we were ready to go. Jimmy took off and we headed out away from the ultralight strip. Immediately it was obvious to both of us that there was a somewhat serious control problem. The control force on the ailerons was very heavy, and it took two hands to roll the aircraft to the right. One hand, but heavy, to make a left roll/turn.
I was given control of the aircraft, and experienced this first hand. The roll rate to the right was atrocious and took both hands to accomplish. Pitch control was heavier than I expected but easily controllable.Yaw control was well within the "Reasonable" range.
Jimmy and I made two or three low passes over the ultralight strip, and I was given the task of landing the airplane. The landing pattern at Camarillo UL strip was very tricky and unsafe as far as I am concerned. In order to not fly over a corporate aircraft facility and their outdoor fuel tanks, the base leg of the pattern is flown extremely close in. Base leg is essentially over the approach end of the strip. Left traffic only, at or below 300 AGL.
The first landing was safe, but bouncy. The Kolb Quit dropped us in from about 2 or 3 feet, to my complete surprise. We taxied back to his hangar andtried to fix the aileron problem.
The second takeoff was made, and there was only a small improvement in controlling the aircraft. It still required two hands to roll the aircraft to the right, and this was needed turning a very close-in base leg, with a hard left turn from base to final. Rolling out of this turn required a two handed right aileron input with a very very slow and not positive result. At 50 feet AGL between a large hangar and a tree.
We made a couple of low passes,and Jimmy reminded me I was far too high and fast, so we went around. On the last pass, he thought I was way too slow. I used the speeds and and techniques I would use in a Taylorcraft, but I did not remember the Kolb Quit. Pulling the throttle back to idle on short final, the airplane landed very hard and seriously damaged the right main gear leg. The airplane got out of hand and headed across the runway for a chain link fence. I applied full power to get it away from the ground, but the high thrust line resulted in us screaming across the runway at below fence height. Full back stick was not getting us any higher than below fence height. We finall climbed over the fence with very little room to spare.
Next time around one of the guys was standing in the middle of the runway waving his arms. What could this be? finally looked out over to the right side of the aircraft,a nd saw the right main wheel up at eye level. I knew instantly that this was going to result in a "crash landing".
The next time around, I managed to keep it going faster, and put it on the remaining wheel with no Kolb Quit, but it of course settled down on tht one wheel..... and the other wingtip, and proceeded to groundloop and bend one of the wing tips. Out of guilt and furious anger, I volunteered to fix the 2 outboard ribs and fabric.
So my question of the Kolb List is... now that I have experienced the wrath of the Kolb Quit, WHAT THE HELL CAUSES IT ???
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 5/27/17, west1m <west1m(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: Fuel Pump
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Saturday, May 27, 2017, 12:19 PM
<west1m(at)hotmail.com>
Does anyone pump in series (or through)
their Mikuni fuel pump?
I ask as I had a wire break off my
regulator and eventually lost all power to gauges, EIS and
GPS before getting back to home field. It would have been a
much shorter flight with only the Facet pump.
--------
West1m
Hastings, MN
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=469643#469643
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 4:28 am Post subject: Re: The Kolb Quit strikes again! |
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Obviously the airplane is seriously out of rig, but first we need more details: What kind of MKIII is it? Classic? Extra?
Does it have flaps like the MKIII or like the Extra? At what angle were they deployed?
How many hours on the airplane and has this ever happened before?
How are the trim tabs set?
How many hours/approaches do you have in a MKIII?
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_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
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lcottrell
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 5:41 am Post subject: The Kolb Quit strikes again! |
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Disclaimer follows. Having bent a few gear legs myself, the following
should not be offensive to anyone. It certainly is not intended to be.
Kolb quit, was originally I believe to have been first voiced as a
tongue in cheek admission of a regularly occurring miscalculation on
the "pilots" part. If you will notice the first and most often
admonition to new pilots to the Kolb world that the plane loses speed
very rapidly, compared to most of the planes that people regularly
fly. If you flare more than a couple of feet off the ground, you will
regularly find that you are behind the plane to an unrecoverable
degree.
What you experienced is pilot muscle memory for a different type of
aircraft. I believe that one of the axioms of life is that experience
comes from making mistakes. It still rankles however. Welcome to the
club.
Larry
On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 6:28 AM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
Obviously the airplane is seriously out of rig, but first we need more details: What kind of MKIII is it? Classic? Extra?
Does it have flaps like the MKIII or like the Extra? At what angle were they deployed?
How many hours on the airplane and has this ever happened before?
How are the trim tabs set?
How many hours/approaches do you have in a MKIII?
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=469665#469665
|
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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do not archive |
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neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 7:53 am Post subject: The Kolb Quit strikes again! |
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Bill
Larry is 100% right. It isn't Kolb quit it is pilot quit.
This happens much more to transitioning GA pilots. I was one and I had the bent gear legs to prove it. Kolbs fly very well but they don't land like the bigger heavier GA airplanes.
I will say this one more time and I'm sure it will be ignored again but hear goes. Maintain some power on final. Enough power will make your Kolb fly like your GA airplane. Cut the power after you touch down. You need to do this at a GA airport where you have plenty of runway. Each landing after reduce the power a bit I get reminded every time a take GA pilot for a ride. I have had GA pilots clean their shorts, others complain I should have warned them more, I even had one try to grab the stick. John H has the right set up where he can remove the passenger side stick. Fly down within inches of the ground then flair. These a unique wonderful STOL airplanes that will bite if you stall them.
I once had my Kolb MKIIIC ailerons feel real heavy doing preflight control check. Turned out I had recovered one flap without removing the hinges and one very rainy night at Airventure the flap filled with water. I added some forgotten weep holes and ten minutes later everything was better.
As usual worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 9:41 AM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)>
Disclaimer follows. Having bent a few gear legs myself, the following
should not be offensive to anyone. It certainly is not intended to be.
Kolb quit, was originally I believe to have been first voiced as a
tongue in cheek admission of a regularly occurring miscalculation on
the "pilots" part. If you will notice the first and most often
admonition to new pilots to the Kolb world that the plane loses speed
very rapidly, compared to most of the planes that people regularly
fly. If you flare more than a couple of feet off the ground, you will
regularly find that you are behind the plane to an unrecoverable
degree.
What you experienced is pilot muscle memory for a different type of
aircraft. I believe that one of the axioms of life is that experience
comes from making mistakes. It still rankles however. Welcome to the
club.
Larry
On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 6:28 AM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)> wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)>
>
> Obviously the airplane is seriously out of rig, but first we need more details: What kind of MKIII is it? Classic? Extra?
> Does it have flaps like the MKIII or like the Extra? At what angle were they deployed?
> How many hours on the airplane and has this ever happened before?
> How are the trim tabs set?
> How many hours/approaches do you have in a MKIII?
>
> --------
> Richard Pike
> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
> Kingsport, TN 3TN0
>
> Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=469665#469665
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.
=============================
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
====================================
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
====================================
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
|
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
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herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 8:13 am Post subject: The Kolb Quit strikes again! |
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|
I think the discussion could be about the airfoil and the sharp stall . Naturally flying the bird to the ground solves any problems...then there are the unplanned landings...
My take on the airfoil is that it is a high lift one...with max thickness well forward of most planes wings of the type..Max thickness is well forward of the spar actually... and I think this causes the narrow stall bucket...Separation occurs across a narrow area of the wing...
I think most high lift airfoils have leading edge slats.. Guessing that those little things that folks stick on the wings mitigate the sharp stall? Herb
On 05/28/2017 10:53 AM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
| Quote: | Bill
Larry is 100% right. It isn't Kolb quit it is pilot quit.
This happens much more to transitioning GA pilots. I was one and I had the bent gear legs to prove it. Kolbs fly very well but they don't land like the bigger heavier GA airplanes.
I will say this one more time and I'm sure it will be ignored again but hear goes. Maintain some power on final. Enough power will make your Kolb fly like your GA airplane. Cut the power after you touch down. You need to do this at a GA airport where you have plenty of runway. Each landing after reduce the power a bit I get reminded every time a take GA pilot for a ride. I have had GA pilots clean their shorts, others complain I should have warned them more, I even had one try to grab the stick. John H has the right set up where he can remove the passenger side stick. Fly down within inches of the ground then flair. These a unique wonderful STOL airplanes that will bite if you stall them.
I once had my Kolb MKIIIC ailerons feel real heavy doing preflight control check. Turned out I had recovered one flap without removing the hinges and one very rainy night at Airventure the flap filled with water. I added some forgotten weep holes and ten minutes later everything was better.
As usual worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 9:41 AM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)>
Disclaimer follows. Having bent a few gear legs myself, the following
should not be offensive to anyone. It certainly is not intended to be.
Kolb quit, was originally I believe to have been first voiced as a
tongue in cheek admission of a regularly occurring miscalculation on
the "pilots" part. If you will notice the first and most often
admonition to new pilots to the Kolb world that the plane loses speed
very rapidly, compared to most of the planes that people regularly
fly. If you flare more than a couple of feet off the ground, you will
regularly find that you are behind the plane to an unrecoverable
degree.
What you experienced is pilot muscle memory for a different type of
aircraft. I believe that one of the axioms of life is that experience
comes from making mistakes. It still rankles however. Welcome to the
club.
Larry
On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 6:28 AM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)> wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)>
>
> Obviously the airplane is seriously out of rig, but first we need more details: What kind of MKIII is it? Classic? Extra?
> Does it have flaps like the MKIII or like the Extra? At what angle were they deployed?
> How many hours on the airplane and has this ever happened before?
> How are the trim tabs set?
> How many hours/approaches do you have in a MKIII?
>
> --------
> Richard Pike
> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
> Kingsport, TN 3TN0
>
> Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=469665#469665
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.
=============================
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
====================================
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
====================================
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
|
|
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
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gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 9:29 am Post subject: The Kolb Quit strikes again! |
|
|
Homer Kolb had saying that I just love. He use to put in the plans instruction manual.
On page 57 of my 1986 Firestar manual under " SOME HELPFUL TIPS AND REMINDERS "
"MORE IMPORTANT THEN ALL ELSE-KEEP UP YOUR AIRSPEED."
But here are the real pearls of Homer's wisdom that I have on my wall.
"KEEP THINE AIRSPEED LEST THE GROUND COME UP AND SMITE THEE."
There is no such thing as "Kolb Quit" it's called a STALL. If you stall a Kolb 2 or 3 feet in the air gravity takes over and you get to experience what a lot of us have, bent landing gear. Like someone else said, "welcome to the club."
Sorry to here about your rough landing. The important thing is you're okay. George H.
Have a great day!
| Quote: | On May 28, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Well Kolbers I am completely humbled and embarrassed.
Because I got distracted by two or three (legitimately serious) things unrelated to the actual landing, I fell victim to the Kolb Quit and damn near wrecked Jimmy's new Mark 3 today.
I flew out to Camarillo in the 172 this morning early, and after some radio equipment issues we were ready to go. Jimmy took off and we headed out away from the ultralight strip. Immediately it was obvious to both of us that there was a somewhat serious control problem. The control force on the ailerons was very heavy, and it took two hands to roll the aircraft to the right. One hand, but heavy, to make a left roll/turn.
I was given control of the aircraft, and experienced this first hand. The roll rate to the right was atrocious and took both hands to accomplish. Pitch control was heavier than I expected but easily controllable.Yaw control was well within the "Reasonable" range.
Jimmy and I made two or three low passes over the ultralight strip, and I was given the task of landing the airplane. The landing pattern at Camarillo UL strip was very tricky and unsafe as far as I am concerned. In order to not fly over a corporate aircraft facility and their outdoor fuel tanks, the base leg of the pattern is flown extremely close in. Base leg is essentially over the approach end of the strip. Left traffic only, at or below 300 AGL.
The first landing was safe, but bouncy. The Kolb Quit dropped us in from about 2 or 3 feet, to my complete surprise. We taxied back to his hangar andtried to fix the aileron problem.
The second takeoff was made, and there was only a small improvement in controlling the aircraft. It still required two hands to roll the aircraft to the right, and this was needed turning a very close-in base leg, with a hard left turn from base to final. Rolling out of this turn required a two handed right aileron input with a very very slow and not positive result. At 50 feet AGL between a large hangar and a tree.
We made a couple of low passes,and Jimmy reminded me I was far too high and fast, so we went around. On the last pass, he thought I was way too slow. I used the speeds and and techniques I would use in a Taylorcraft, but I did not remember the Kolb Quit. Pulling the throttle back to idle on short final, the airplane landed very hard and seriously damaged the right main gear leg. The airplane got out of hand and headed across the runway for a chain link fence. I applied full power to get it away from the ground, but the high thrust line resulted in us screaming across the runway at below fence height. Full back stick was not getting us any higher than below fence height. We finall climbed over the fence with very little room to spare.
Next time around one of the guys was standing in the middle of the runway waving his arms. What could this be? finally looked out over to the right side of the aircraft,a nd saw the right main wheel up at eye level. I knew instantly that this was going to result in a "crash landing".
The next time around, I managed to keep it going faster, and put it on the remaining wheel with no Kolb Quit, but it of course settled down on tht one wheel..... and the other wingtip, and proceeded to groundloop and bend one of the wing tips. Out of guilt and furious anger, I volunteered to fix the 2 outboard ribs and fabric.
So my question of the Kolb List is... now that I have experienced the wrath of the Kolb Quit, WHAT THE HELL CAUSES IT ???
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 5/27/17, west1m <west1m(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: Fuel Pump
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Saturday, May 27, 2017, 12:19 PM
<west1m(at)hotmail.com>
Does anyone pump in series (or through)
their Mikuni fuel pump?
I ask as I had a wire break off my
regulator and eventually lost all power to gauges, EIS and
GPS before getting back to home field. It would have been a
much shorter flight with only the Facet pump.
--------
West1m
Hastings, MN
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=469643#469643
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
via the Web Forums!
- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
Email List Wiki!
- List Contribution Web Site -
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
|
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
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james.vanlaak(at)gmail.co
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 11:33 am Post subject: The Kolb Quit strikes again! |
|
|
I have been a member of this list for many years although I have only contributed a few posts. Most of the time the group hits all of the relevant points but there is one point here that I have not seen mentioned and which I feel is important because I have had to compensate for it in some of the many types I have flown over the years.
When we fly conventional airplanes we have a big nose and instrument panel in front of us that offers an unmistakable reminder of where the nose is. Many GA airplanes have the nose so high even in a gliding stall that you would have to be asleep to miss the signal. But Kolbs do not have that big nose and in fact the great visibility ahead is one of the things we all love about the planes. But the lack of that big nose means that it is easy for the nose attitude to be higher than we thought and the airspeed/energy lower. So when you feel like you have a normal glide you may be on the edge of a pre-stall mush and when you raise the nose just a big more you suddenly find the bottom dropping out. On the other hand, the fact that they have less kinetic energy and therefore slow down more quickly means there is not as big a penalty for being a little fast on approach as long as you do not force it onto the ground. I used to deadstick my Firestar 1 from time to time and probably used 50 on final just to be absolutely sure I had energy for a smooth flair, but even so I doubt I ever used more than 500 feet of runway total.
If you are careful to control your energy with the proper airspeed you will find the Kolbs are all very well mannered machines.
Jim
On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 1:28 PM, George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)>
Homer Kolb had saying that I just love. He use to put in the plans instruction manual.
On page 57 of my 1986 Firestar manual under " SOME HELPFUL TIPS AND REMINDERS "
"MORE IMPORTANT THEN ALL ELSE-KEEP UP YOUR AIRSPEED."
But here are the real pearls of Homer's wisdom that I have on my wall.
"KEEP THINE AIRSPEED LEST THE GROUND COME UP AND SMITE THEE."
There is no such thing as "Kolb Quit" it's called a STALL. If you stall a Kolb 2 or 3 feet in the air gravity takes over and you get to experience what a lot of us have, bent landing gear. Like someone else said, "welcome to the club."
Sorry to here about your rough landing. The important thing is you're okay. George H.
Have a great day!
> On May 28, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
>
> Well Kolbers I am completely humbled and embarrassed.
>
> Because I got distracted by two or three (legitimately serious) things unrelated to the actual landing, I fell victim to the Kolb Quit and damn near wrecked Jimmy's new Mark 3 today.
>
> I flew out to Camarillo in the 172 this morning early, and after some radio equipment issues we were ready to go. Jimmy took off and we headed out away from the ultralight strip. Immediately it was obvious to both of us that there was a somewhat serious control problem. The control force on the ailerons was very heavy, and it took two hands to roll the aircraft to the right. One hand, but heavy, to make a left roll/turn.
>
> I was given control of the aircraft, and experienced this first hand. The roll rate to the right was atrocious and took both hands to accomplish. Pitch control was heavier than I expected but easily controllable.Yaw control was well within the "Reasonable" range.
>
> Jimmy and I made two or three low passes over the ultralight strip, and I was given the task of landing the airplane. The landing pattern at Camarillo UL strip was very tricky and unsafe as far as I am concerned. In order to not fly over a corporate aircraft facility and their outdoor fuel tanks, the base leg of the pattern is flown extremely close in. Base leg is essentially over the approach end of the strip. Left traffic only, at or below 300 AGL.
>
> The first landing was safe, but bouncy. The Kolb Quit dropped us in from about 2 or 3 feet, to my complete surprise. We taxied back to his hangar andtried to fix the aileron problem.
>
> The second takeoff was made, and there was only a small improvement in controlling the aircraft. It still required two hands to roll the aircraft to the right, and this was needed turning a very close-in base leg, with a hard left turn from base to final. Rolling out of this turn required a two handed right aileron input with a very very slow and not positive result. At 50 feet AGL between a large hangar and a tree.
>
> We made a couple of low passes,and Jimmy reminded me I was far too high and fast, so we went around. On the last pass, he thought I was way too slow. I used the speeds and and techniques I would use in a Taylorcraft, but I did not remember the Kolb Quit. Pulling the throttle back to idle on short final, the airplane landed very hard and seriously damaged the right main gear leg. The airplane got out of hand and headed across the runway for a chain link fence. I applied full power to get it away from the ground, but the high thrust line resulted in us screaming across the runway at below fence height. Full back stick was not getting us any higher than below fence height. We finall climbed over the fence with very little room to spare.
>
> Next time around one of the guys was standing in the middle of the runway waving his arms. What could this be? finally looked out over to the right side of the aircraft,a nd saw the right main wheel up at eye level. I knew instantly that this was going to result in a "crash landing".
>
> The next time around, I managed to keep it going faster, and put it on the remaining wheel with no Kolb Quit, but it of course settled down on tht one wheel..... and the other wingtip, and proceeded to groundloop and bend one of the wing tips. Out of guilt and furious anger, I volunteered to fix the 2 outboard ribs and fabric.
>
> So my question of the Kolb List is... now that I have experienced the wrath of the Kolb Quit, WHAT THE HELL CAUSES IT ???
>
>
>
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 5/27/17, west1m <west1m(at)hotmail.com (west1m(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Fuel Pump
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
> Date: Saturday, May 27, 2017, 12:19 PM
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "west1m"
> <west1m(at)hotmail.com (west1m(at)hotmail.com)>
>
> Does anyone pump in series (or through)
> their Mikuni fuel pump?
> I ask as I had a wire break off my
> regulator and eventually lost all power to gauges, EIS and
> GPS before getting back to home field. It would have been a
> much shorter flight with only the Facet pump.
>
> --------
> West1m
> Hastings, MN
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=469643#469643
>
>
>
>
>
>
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woody
Joined: 26 Mar 2013
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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 7:15 pm Post subject: The Kolb Quit strikes again! |
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Thank you all for your input and advice. There was a bit more to the story than I put in my late-night original post. But what is done is done.
I offered to repair the damaged wing and fabric of the aircraft and am in the process of doing so. The aircraft owner has ordered new landing gear legs, and has good resources to repair the steel landing gear receptacle tube in the fuselage. I believe
Although there were many different contributing factors, and there is blame enough to go around between everyone, the one thing that really should have not been a part of this is that the required landing pattern to use the Camarillo UL strip created a situaiton where a lot of safer, or more cautious choices could have been made but weren't.
The cause of the aircraft not having solid 3 axis control authority is still unknown.
To answer a Kolb List question posted, this is a Mark 3 Classic, with flaps. The flaps were not used AT ANY TIME during these flights.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:37 am Post subject: Re: The Kolb Quit strikes again! |
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| victorbravo(at)sbcglobal. wrote: | <Snip> Immediately it was obvious to both of us that there was a somewhat serious control problem. The control force on the ailerons was very heavy, and it took two hands to roll the aircraft to the right. One hand, but heavy, to make a left roll/turn.
I was given control of the aircraft, and experienced this first hand. The roll rate to the right was atrocious and took both hands to accomplish. <Snip> |
Sitting here going through my airframe logbook, I kept notes of how I sorted my MKIII out - try raising the trailing edge of both your flaps and ailerons by a few degrees. It will lighten both pitch and roll control input force somewhat.
One of the stock Kolb characteristics is heavy ailerons. My solution was to change the bellcrank throw length to make it easier to move the aileron under load. Air loads cause the aileron torque tube to twist, so if it is only going to move just so far anyway, why not make it easier? Some have objected that they want all the control authority they can get, and they don't want to give up any control authority by reducing aileron movement, but in practice it doesn't work out that way.
For what it's worth, at the last Kolb fly-n before his untimely death, Norm Labhart took my MKIII up and wrung it out solo for about 20 minutes, landed and said it was the best handling MKIII he had ever flown. I haven't changed it since.
http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/pg7.htm
http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/FSII%20ailerons.html
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Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 8:04 am Post subject: The Kolb Quit strikes again! |
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Thank you Richard, I will forward your solutions to the aircraft owner.
Has anyone just removed the flaps on the Mk 3 as a way to reduce the aileron forces? Are there versions of the Mk 3 that do not have flaps? What problems would be caused if the flaps were removed?
Has anyone installed the "spades" or "shovels" on the ailerons like the aerbatic guys have on their ailerons?
Between the first and second flights on this Mk 3, the owner moved the control rods in toward the center of the bellcrank arm. I am hearing that this is a common decision made by Kolb owners. It may have helped a little, but in this case we had a more significant problem with the aircraft nearly unable to roll to the right.
I am also going to suggest that the owner lengthen the control sticks so that more force can be applied to the system by the pilot. This will make it harder to get in and out of the airplane, but that is manageable.
Bill Berle
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: The Kolb Quit strikes again! |
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The owner needs to get somebody who is knowledgeable about MKIII's to go over the airplane carefully because something is wrong with it. Normal MKIII aileron forces are not that bad, you & he need to go fly in a normal Kolb to see what normalcy is. Yes, unmodified they are heavy, but no way are they 2 handed heavy to the point of being almost unmanagable as you describe.
There are a number of posts about this topic in the archives.
I expect you have checked for asymmetrical flap rigging, or asymmetrical wing incidence?
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Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 12:59 pm Post subject: The Kolb Quit strikes again! |
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On 5/29/2017 3:13 PM, Richard Pike wrote:
| Quote: |
The owner needs to get somebody who is knowledgeable about MKIII's to go over the airplane carefully because something is wrong with it. Normal MKIII aileron forces are not that bad, you & he need to go fly in a normal Kolb to see what normalcy is. Yes, unmodified they are heavy, but no way are they 2 handed heavy to the point of being almost unmanagable as you describe.
There are a number of posts about this topic in the archives.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Also, asymmetric L/R roll forces make no sense on *any* a/c. Strong
|
indicator that it's badly out of rig. (Unless one of you is 60 lbs & the
other is 350....)
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: The Kolb Quit strikes again! |
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| ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote: | <Snip> (Unless one of you is 60 lbs & the
other is 350....)<Snip> |
Years ago I took a guy for a ride and I don't know what he weighed, but he was firmly wedged against the control tube that runs down the center of the cockpit - I would guess 300+ pounds easy. And I weigh 200. The only thing I really noticed as out of the ordinary was that the rate of climb was like a Cessna 150 on a hot day, and I didn't dare use any flaps. Handling seemed normal, but OTOH I was being VERY discreet...
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Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
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