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New Engine Questions

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vernon.franklin(at)gmail.
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:05 pm Post subject: New Engine Questions

Hi everyone, hope you had a great Thanksgiving.

Our engine came in last week, and I have a few questions that I cannot seem to find answers to.

1) What torque should the Engine Mount Ears be attached with?  The closest I have found is in the Lycoming Service Table of Limits; and the best I can determine is 30 Ft.Lbs.  Can anyone verify?

2) The engine ships with preservation oil, and the procedure calls for you to tilt the engine side to side to drain the oil out of the bottom plugs.  Being as though it may be another year before I actually start the engine up, should I leave the preservation oil in and worry about emptying it closer to first start up?  Or should I empty it now where I do have the ability of tilting it side to side on the engine hoist, and put the first batch of lubrication oil in?  What have others done?

3) Van's sent me Lycoming Service Instruction 1435; conversion from fixed pitch to constant speed prop.  Am I correct to assume that the stock IO-540 from Lycoming is already set up for constant speed?  Or is this something we all have to do to convert it from fixed pitch?

4) Slick Start Magneto Booster - Is this thing really worth $800?  Anyone out there have experience with and without the booster?



5) A little off topic; but propellers.  I wanted to go 3 bladed, because I love the comfort and smoothness 3 blades gives you over 2 bladed props.  I chose the MT over the Hartzell propeller, mainly because it was $5k cheaper.  Is this a decision I am going to regret later?  Anyone have any experience with both MT and Hartzell, any input?



Thanks!



-- 

Vernon Franklin



 



  [quote][b]

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:06 pm Post subject: New Engine Questions

I'll reply below. 



Jesse SaintI-TEC, Inc.

jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)

www.itecusa.org

www.mavericklsa.com

C: 352-427-0285

O: 352-465-4545

F: 815-377-3694

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 30, 2014, at 6:02 PM, Vernon Franklin <vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com (vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hi everyone, hope you had a great Thanksgiving.

Our engine came in last week, and I have a few questions that I cannot seem to find answers to.

1) What torque should the Engine Mount Ears be attached with?  The closest I have found is in the Lycoming Service Table of Limits; and the best I can determine is 30 Ft.Lbs.  Can anyone verify?

	
That sounds right, but go with the steel but to steel studs torque value. Some of those nuts are really hard to get a good grip on to tighten. 

 	  Quote: 	
		  



2) The engine ships with preservation oil, and the procedure calls for you to tilt the engine side to side to drain the oil out of the bottom plugs.  Being as though it may be another year before I actually start the engine up, should I leave the preservation oil in and worry about emptying it closer to first start up?  Or should I empty it now where I do have the ability of tilting it side to side on the engine hoist, and put the first batch of lubrication oil in?  What have others done?

	
I'd leave it. Make sure not to turn the crankshaft at all until you are close to being ready to run it. You don't absolutely need to get every drop of oil out. You can just drain it and add new oil to run. Also, you want to have a quickdrain on hand when you are ready to oil the engine so you can replace the plug with it. 

 	  Quote: 	
		  



3) Van's sent me Lycoming Service Instruction 1435; conversion from fixed pitch to constant speed prop.  Am I correct to assume that the stock IO-540 from Lycoming is already set up for constant speed?  Or is this something we all have to do to convert it from fixed pitch?

	
It should be set up for constant speed, but will probably have a crankshaft front plug it to seal the steel. When you pull it out (later), make sure the aft plug is in (about 6 inches back from the front plug) and you're good to go. 

 	  Quote: 	
		  



4) Slick Start Magneto Booster - Is this thing really worth $800?  Anyone out there have experience with and without the booster?



	
If you don't have an impulse coupled mag, you need the slick start. For some reason engines from Van's don't come stock with impulse coupled mags. 

 	  Quote: 	
		  



5) A little off topic; but propellers.  I wanted to go 3 bladed, because I love the comfort and smoothness 3 blades gives you over 2 bladed props.  I chose the MT over the Hartzell propeller, mainly because it was $5k cheaper.  Is this a decision I am going to regret later?  Anyone have any experience with both MT and Hartzell, any input?



	
The Hartzell composite prop is a little slower than the MT, although it is much sexier. The nicest looking 3-blade, IMHO, is the whirlwind. Next is the aero composite (not in production any more, but available used for good price, contact me off list about one). The Hartzell is nice, but the blades are really fat. The MT is, IMHO, the least desirable based on looks, and possibly based on durability. All 3-blade props are more work than the Hartzell 2-blade, mainly due to the difficulty of removing the bottom cowl. Also, the metal blades are more durable and nick-resistant than composite blades. The 2-blade is at least as fast as the fastest 3-blade, if not faster. 

[quote]



Thanks!



-- 

Vernon Franklin



 



   	  Quote: 	
		  



D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ot;">www.aeroelectric.com

books.com"">www.buildersbooks.com

quot;">www.homebuilthelp.com

quot;">www.mypilotstore.com

">www.mrrace.com

ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

//forums.matronics.com

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



	


[b]

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: New Engine Questions

1. I don't have my engine manual handy, cannot answer.

2. By all means, leave the preservation oil in. But the cylinders may be full of oil, do not rotate the prop/crankshaft. When ready to run, pull all plugs, rotate the crank, oil will come out the bottom plug holes and make a mess. Drain oil and add mineral oil.

3.  My Vans engine came with the plug in the crank for fixed pitch, I had to pull it. Yours may be different. If you have it the plug is just an inch or two in from the flange

4. The standard engine from Vans does not have impulse mags. Just one with a retard mag. I would say the Slick start is necessary. With a good battery it might start without the Slickstart but you risk kickback if you don't use the retard feature.

5. Props. Well, you stated the reasons why you want to spend more to go slower (compared to a two blade). For sure, modify the lower cowl by extending the nose gear slot further forward (re-attachable with screws) so you can get the lower cowl off with a three blade in the way.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

Leeverett

Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 14

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:29 pm Post subject: New Engine Questions

I have a comment about the prop. I have the 2 blade Hartzell and my friend Dan in the same hangar has the MT 3 blade. I have the stock IO 540 and he has the tuned air induction engine-probably 15 HP more. We have conducted non scientific tests. On a climb to 1000 feet he is a hundred feet ahead of me. In a cruise same mp and rpm I Am about 7 kts faster. The biggest problem I see with the 3 blade in that you have to pull the tail almost to the floor to remove the bottom cowl. Both good props though.

Leon Everett

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 17:02:05 -0600

Subject: RV10-List: New Engine Questions

From: vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Hi everyone, hope you had a great Thanksgiving.

Our engine came in last week, and I have a few questions that I cannot seem to find answers to.

1) What torque should the Engine Mount Ears be attached with?  The closest I have found is in the Lycoming Service Table of Limits; and the best I can determine is 30 Ft.Lbs.  Can anyone verify?

2) The engine ships with preservation oil, and the procedure calls for you to tilt the engine side to side to drain the oil out of the bottom plugs.  Being as though it may be another year before I actually start the engine up, should I leave the preservation oil in and worry about emptying it closer to first start up?  Or should I empty it now where I do have the ability of tilting it side to side on the engine hoist, and put the first batch of lubrication oil in?  What have others done?

3) Van's sent me Lycoming Service Instruction 1435; conversion from fixed pitch to constant speed prop.  Am I correct to assume that the stock IO-540 from Lycoming is already set up for constant speed?  Or is this something we all have to do to convert it from fixed pitch?

4) Slick Start Magneto Booster - Is this thing really worth $800?  Anyone out there have experience with and without the booster?

5) A little off topic; but propellers.  I wanted to go 3 bladed, because I love the comfort and smoothness 3 blades gives you over 2 bladed props.  I chose the MT over the Hartzell propeller, mainly because it was $5k cheaper.  Is this a decision I am going to regret later?  Anyone have any experience with both MT and Hartzell, any input?

Thanks!

-- 

Vernon Franklin

  [quote]

et=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com

ks.com" target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com

rget=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com

rget=_blank>www.mypilotstore.com

=_blank>www.mrrace.com

rget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution

ist" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

ank>http://forums.matronics.com

[b]

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:59 pm Post subject: New Engine Questions

See below. 



Jesse Saint

I-TEC, Inc.

jesse(at)itecusa.org

www.itecusa.org

www.mavericklsa.com

C: 352-427-0285

O: 352-465-4545

F: 815-377-3694



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Nov 30, 2014, at 7:13 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> wrote:

 

 

 

 1. I don't have my engine manual handy, cannot answer.

 2. By all means, leave the preservation oil in. But the cylinders may be full of oil, do not rotate the prop/crankshaft. When ready to run, pull all plugs, rotate the crank, oil will come out the bottom plug holes and make a mess.

Then fill with new oil and crank with the plugs out until you get oil pressure before going to fire the first time. 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   3.  My Vans engine came with the plug in the crank for fixed pitch, I had to pull it. Yours may be different. If you have it the plug is just an inch or two in from the flange

There are two plug locations, one for fixed pitch and one for constant speed. The Van's engine comes with both plugs in, so you pull the front one for constant speed. If you want fixed pitch, you have to pull the front plug, remove or punch a hole in the rear plug, the put a new front plug in. 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   4. The standard engine from Vans does not have impulse mags. Just one with a retard mag. I would say the Slick start is necessary. With a good battery it might start without the Slickstart but you risk kickback if you don't use the retard feature.

It will start fine cold and with a great battery, but hot start will likely not fire. Ask me how I know. 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   5. Props. Well, you stated the reasons why you want to spend more to go slower (compared to a two blade). For sure, modify the lower cowl by extending the nose gear slot further forward (re-attachable with screws) so you can get the lower cowl off with a three blade in the way.

Amen to the 2-blade, brother!
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=435187#435187

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:04 pm Post subject: New Engine Questions

The scientific way to test is to trade props and do the same test. 



Jesse SaintI-TEC, Inc.

jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)

www.itecusa.org

www.mavericklsa.com

C: 352-427-0285

O: 352-465-4545

F: 815-377-3694

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 30, 2014, at 7:26 PM, LEON EVERETT <leeverett(at)msn.com (leeverett(at)msn.com)> wrote:

[quote]    I have a comment about the prop. I have the 2 blade Hartzell and my friend Dan in the same hangar has the MT 3 blade. I have the stock IO 540 and he has the tuned air induction engine-probably 15 HP more. We have conducted non scientific tests. On a climb to 1000 feet he is a hundred feet ahead of me. In a cruise same mp and rpm I Am about 7 kts faster. The biggest problem I see with the 3 blade in that you have to pull the tail almost to the floor to remove the bottom cowl. Both good props though.

Leon Everett



Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 17:02:05 -0600

Subject: RV10-List: New Engine Questions

From: vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com (vernon.franklin(at)gmail.com)

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)



Hi everyone, hope you had a great Thanksgiving.

Our engine came in last week, and I have a few questions that I cannot seem to find answers to.

1) What torque should the Engine Mount Ears be attached with?  The closest I have found is in the Lycoming Service Table of Limits; and the best I can determine is 30 Ft.Lbs.  Can anyone verify?

2) The engine ships with preservation oil, and the procedure calls for you to tilt the engine side to side to drain the oil out of the bottom plugs.  Being as though it may be another year before I actually start the engine up, should I leave the preservation oil in and worry about emptying it closer to first start up?  Or should I empty it now where I do have the ability of tilting it side to side on the engine hoist, and put the first batch of lubrication oil in?  What have others done?

3) Van's sent me Lycoming Service Instruction 1435; conversion from fixed pitch to constant speed prop.  Am I correct to assume that the stock IO-540 from Lycoming is already set up for constant speed?  Or is this something we all have to do to convert it from fixed pitch?

4) Slick Start Magneto Booster - Is this thing really worth $800?  Anyone out there have experience with and without the booster?



5) A little off topic; but propellers.  I wanted to go 3 bladed, because I love the comfort and smoothness 3 blades gives you over 2 bladed props.  I chose the MT over the Hartzell propeller, mainly because it was $5k cheaper.  Is this a decision I am going to regret later?  Anyone have any experience with both MT and Hartzell, any input?



Thanks!



-- 

Vernon Franklin



 



   	  Quote: 	
		  



et=_blank>www.aeroelectric.com

ks.com" target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.com

rget=_blank>www.homebuilthelp.com

rget=_blank>www.mypilotstore.com

=_blank>www.mrrace.com

rget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution

ist" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

ank>http://forums.matronics.com







D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ot;">www.aeroelectric.com

books.com"">www.buildersbooks.com

quot;">www.homebuilthelp.com

quot;">www.mypilotstore.com

">www.mrrace.com

ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

//forums.matronics.com

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



	


[b]

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: New Engine Questions

Jesse is correct, of course. I've read one A-B comparison here: RV10 owner had a 3 blade MT, had to send it back for repair (FOD), got a 2 blade loaner. 2 blade was faster (I forget the numbers) enough he was looking to sell the repaired MT.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

rv10flyer

Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364

Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: New Engine Questions

I would go with the three blade Hartzell for less vibration if doing it over and I had plenty of money in the bank. Who cares about a few knots on a 3-4 hr trip. Just get to the airport 10 minutes earlier.

_________________
Wayne G.

wgreenley

Joined: 09 Jan 2010
Posts: 100
Location: Dowagiac, MI

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:35 am Post subject: New Engine Questions

Reports I have heard say that the two blade can be just as smooth if you get it dynamically balanced.



On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 11:54 PM, rv10flyer <wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com (wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "rv10flyer" <wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com (wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com)>

 

 I would go with the three blade Hartzell for less vibration if doing it over and I had plenty of money in the bank. Who cares about a few knots on a 3-4 hr trip. Just get to the airport 10 minutes earlier.

 

 --------

 Wayne G.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=436642#436642

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 br> fts!)

 r> > com" target="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

 w.buildersbooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

 p.com" target="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

 e.com" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com

 " target="_blank">www.mrrace.com

 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 ===========

  FORUMS -

 _blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:46 am Post subject: New Engine Questions

A two blade can be made relatively smooth with dynamic balancing. It 

will not be as smooth as a balanced 3 blade. Simple physics.

A six cylinder fires every 120 degrees. A three bladed prop has the 

blades 120 degrees apart. Same reason a 2 blade is smoother on a 4 cyl 

engine than a 3 blade, because a 4 cyl fires every 180 degrees.

A composite prop, whether carbon fiber, or fiberglass over wood will be 

smoother than a metal blade, because the composite blades have some flex 

and absorb vibration. Composite blades allow more optimization of blade 

shape than is possible with metal, so they tend to have less speed 

difference than a metal 3 blade. I've seen many reports of 3 bladed 

composite giving up no detectable speed to a 2 blade metal prop. 

However, blades cost money, composite costs money. So 2 blade aluminum 

will always be your lowest cost if marketing doesn't play games.

On 1/5/2015 7:32 AM, William Greenley wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Reports I have heard say that the two blade can be just as smooth if 

 you get it dynamically balanced.



 On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 11:54 PM, rv10flyer <wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com 

 <mailto:wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com>> wrote:



     

     <wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com <mailto:wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com>>



     I would go with the three blade Hartzell for less vibration if

     doing it over and I had plenty of money in the bank. Who cares

     about a few knots on a 3-4 hr trip. Just get to the airport 10

     minutes earlier.



     --------

     Wayne G.





     Read this topic online here:



     http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=436642#436642



     ===========

     br> fts!)

     r> > com" target="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

     w.buildersbooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

     p.com" target="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

     e.com" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com

     " target="_blank">www.mrrace.com

     target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

               -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

     ===========

     -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

     ===========

     FORUMS -

     _blank">http://forums.matronics.com

     ===========





 *

 *

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

rv10flyer

Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364

Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:41 am Post subject: Re: New Engine Questions

Mine has been dynamically balanced and I have flown behind both props. I just did not have the funds for the upgrade. We still love our family hauler.

_________________
Wayne G.

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