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Question for the old timers

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occom(at)ns.sympatico.ca
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Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:40 am Post subject: Question for the old timers

I am dissassembling the rear spars from the wings  on my IV for replacement. The previous owner began repairs and I am undoing some  of that. 

  

 My question surrounds the epoxy used by Denney in  1992. Where I am removing the original epoxy it has some "give" to it and  surrenders quickly to the hot knife arrangement I am using. The newly glued  surfaces use Hysol and it is hard as a rock and rather more resistant to heat.  

  

 So, what was the original adhesive?  If  both are the same Hysol adhesive, what is the difference? Cotton flox?  

  

 BTW I can now confirm that it takes much longer to  disassemble a wing (assuming you want to use the ribs over) than it takes  to build one.

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morid(at)northland.lib.mi
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:11 am Post subject: Question for the old timers

Dave, the original adhesive was probably 3M  2216.  It's good stuff, but it had to be mixed 1/3 - 2/3 which was a bit of  a bother.  The good thing is that it can be removed with heat.

 Deke

  

 [quote]   ---

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wliles(at)bayou.com
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Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:03 am Post subject: Question for the old timers

My Avid used the same adhesive and it cured to a quite hard surface when 

correctly mixed. It could not be easily dented with a fingernail. If the 

adhesive on your set of wings can be easily dented and is somewhat 

pliable then I suspect it was not mixed in the correct ratios or the 

glue was past its shelf life before it was used.  Fortunately in the 

wings the structure will develop almost its full strength when properly 

assembled with the shrunk on fabric without glue.  Dean Wilson, the 

original designer, of the Avid said the glue served mainly to keep 

things together so it could be covered.  As I understand it Kitfox even 

went so far as to assemble a glueless wing and test it.  None-the-less 

improper gluing of the wing  would make me a bit concerned about the 

workmanship in the rest of the plane.



Jerry Liles



Dave G. wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I am dissassembling the rear spars from the wings on my IV for 

 replacement. The previous owner began repairs and I am undoing some of 

 that.

  

 My question surrounds the epoxy used by Denney in 1992. Where I am 

 removing the original epoxy it has some "give" to it and surrenders 

 quickly to the hot knife arrangement I am using. The newly glued 

 surfaces use Hysol and it is hard as a rock and rather more resistant 

 to heat.

  

 So, what was the original adhesive?  If both are the same Hysol 

 adhesive, what is the difference? Cotton flox?

  

 BTW I can now confirm that it takes much longer to disassemble a wing 

 (assuming you want to use the ribs over) than it takes to build one.

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occom(at)ns.sympatico.ca
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:49 am Post subject: Question for the old timers

---

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wliles(at)bayou.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:41 am Post subject: Question for the old timers

Dave,



I beg your pardon.  You requested input on the adhesive and I told you 

what I knew.  Avid and Kitfox used the same adhesive.  I know this 

because I helped a bit with the assembly of a Kitfox wing while building 

my Avid.  I told you what my experience was and what I thought.  I don't 

think my post was insulting to either you or the original builder, nor 

were the replies from other list members.  I don't have your airplane 

here to inspect so I can't comment directly on the workmanship, however, 

apparent improper gluing would still make me suspect.  It is possible 

the original builder used a different epoxy.  



Jerry Liles



Dave G. wrote:



[quote] 

 ---

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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:31 am Post subject: Question for the old timers

I dare say even the Hysol can be cut with a hot knife.  In the Lancair list 

there is occasional talk of opening a wing or other structure for corrective 

work.  The technique as I understand it is to use heat to undo the Hysol 

joints and brute force to separate the others.



One characteristic of "structural" epoxies is that they have a bit more 

elasticity than the hard lay-up epoxys.  This to allow them to move a bit 

under load rather than simply crack.  This would illustrate the validity of 

the structure opening technique - soften the adhesive and use a putty knife 

to pry it open then break the hard stuff.



Lowell

---

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occom(at)ns.sympatico.ca
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:33 am Post subject: Question for the old timers

---

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eccles(at)Chartermi.net
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Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:00 am Post subject: Question for the old timers

Hi all

 on my series V the bonding epoxy was 3M 2216 A/B and was mixed 2/3  per

volume if that helps any.



--

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morid(at)northland.lib.mi
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:05 am Post subject: Question for the old timers

Very tactful reply Dave.   I agree that the replies to your other posts were

probably well meaning, but with emails it's difficult to inject tone and

often, with poor wording, they can be taken as being critical.  I try to

allow my posts to simmer for a bit then reread them before hitting the send

button, however even that isn't always successful.  Generally, at the very

least I catch some atrocious spelling and grammar errors, but I digress...

As for the adhesives, both of the 3M 2216 or Hysol 9430 are good and will do

the job.  Some folks just think the Hysol is easier to work with.

Deke

ps:  Still haven't received any details on the watermellon social.  Also,

anybody know where we can get a map to the Acey Ducey lounge?

 	  Quote: 	
		   No pardon nescessary and I wasn't insulted. I was informed by another

lister
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   that the original adhesive is likely 3M 2216 which he described as

slightly
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   flexible and removable with heat, so that seems likely.



 I will confess to being a little short of patience with the number of

 condemnations of the entire aircraft based on questions I've asked. I do

 welcome input but as you say, you cannot evaluate the structure from your

 end. General concerns about workmanship of the entire aircraft are

probably
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   best left to the owner and the DAR.



 I had asked a while back about an odd repair that I doubted, (spliced

spar)
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   without providing any background. I recieved no less than four emails, all

 well meaning I'm sure saying that the entire structure was doubtful on the

 basis of this one untried repair when all I needed to hear was that it was

a
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   bad idea and that it should be replaced.



 In any case, I do welcome your reply and it is possible that we

 misunderstand each other. There are many questions I might ask badly. I am

 fascinated by the idea of the glueless wing, especially after the amount

of
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   time the adhesive is costing me, but I've already got these two cans of

 Hysol...

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