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aerokinetic(at)sbcglobal.
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 Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:27 am Post subject: "you're gonna die because you use autogas" |
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I'll verify this -I was there and had a great time too! And for those of you who don't know Bob, his RV-6 is beautiful! -He's not some boob running Mogas in a beater airplane.
There seems to be an attitude especially among "professional" pilots that is decidedly anti-mogas. It would appear to be an eliteist sort of thing. I've flown with plenty of "holier than thou types" who distain mogas (but have absolutely no experience with it).
Think what you want. I see no need to try to convert anyone. If you want to spend more on fuel because it makes you feel good then do it!
Thanks to the other listers who have pointed out the gaps in both sides of reasoning -so I don't have to. I will say a hearty "Amen Tom Gummo" though while I'm at it.
I'm just gonna continue doing what I know works from experience (like Jim) and a little bit of knowledge too. I know to my satisfaction what heptane, iso-octane, and tetra-ethyl-lead are along with the number of oxygenates out there. I understand the relationship of mix ratios of the above on octane rating. I have a working knowledge of vapor pressure (in part gained from seeing fuel 'boil' in my clear glass Cessna 140 gascolator). I will continue like Bob to run a mix of 100LL and autogas where necessary to keep the vapor pressure down and and stabilize the cheaper autofuel if it's gonna sit in a tank a week or two. I won't say mogas is 'better' or even 'just as good' -but I will say that it's better in my C-85 powered Cessna 140 -the original fuel specification being listed as "73 octane minimum and NO LEAD" (straight from the book), and that it works satisfactorily in the RV-4 when it's of good quality, kept fresh and mixed with a little (or a lot of) 100LL at times. Heck, I've run autogas in the EAA AirVenture Cup race and done quite well, thank you. Right now the RV's got pure 100LL in it because my favorite gas station for autogas which used to sell unadulterated gasoline with no alcohol has gone cheap and I can't find good alcohol-free mogas at the moment.
The stuff renders the inside of the engine(s) just as clean (in the case of exhaust ports and spark plugs -cleaner) than 100LL. I'm not just saying this -I've seen it.
Bottom line... If you're gonna use autogas, educate yourself. Keep it fresh. Keep things clean (pour your fuel through coffee filters if you want). Realize that it's kind of like the 'Wild West' out there as to fuel quality and vapor pressure and additives. Buy a Hodgkins Volatility tester. Buy a graduated cylinder or EAA's new alcohol test kit (a graduated cylinder with instructions). Have the right attitude and realize the cheap stuff has it's shortcomings and save about a dollar a gallon at times. If this isn't your speed and you want a sure thing with no additional fussing around then ante up and buy 100LL. AT ANY RATE, BE SAFE, FLY AND HAVE FUN!
Lets stop this insanity and realize we're all on the same team for all intents and purposes!
Scott Spencer
RV-4 (~400hrs with a good amount of that on autogas)
Cessna 140 (~800hrs almost exclusively 87 octane autogas)
I'm an A&P and fly a Gulfstream for a living (but's that's only because I have to... so I can afford the 'fun planes')
>>>>>Here's one for the "you're gonna die because you use autogas" folks:
Today's OAT: 87 deg F.
This morning filled up with three six-gallon jugs of 87 octane gas (not 93,
not 91, but 87 octane), pulled the airplane up to the gas pump on our
airpark and added 6 gallons of 100LL. 75/25 mix. Flew to a flyin, ate
lunch then did a balloon pop contest and a spot landing contest. Had a
passenger with me. Flew around the flyin for about an hour, in the pattern
mixed in with several spam cans, super cubs, a T-6, PT-19, all in the
pattern at 100-120mph (didn't win the spot landing contest but got two out
of three balloons for a tie for first place). After we did that climbed out
to 6500 and headed home, and had some fun with some cumulus. Hottest CHT
hit 400 on the climb to 6500. After leveling off it settled back down to
365. Oil temp was 202. In other words, some ideal conditions for vapor
lock.
I'm here to tell you that I survived yet another hot but fun day using
autogas, with not even a hint vapor lock and no signs of overheating.
Regards,
Bob Japundza
RV-6 flying, F1 under const.
do not archive
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rocketbob(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:56 am Post subject: "you're gonna die because you use autogas" |
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One thing I should point out is the source for my autogas. I have an account at the local farm bureau here out in the sticks where I live in central Indiana, and swipe my card to get biodiesel or unleaded and get a bill every month. They get their fuel from a small refinery in southern Indiana that only serves farm bureau distributors. I've talked to people at the refinery and they assured me that alcohol is not used at all in their refining processes. On many occasions (especially in the winter months) I have run 100% 87 octane with no problem but as a precaution I mix 25/75 100LL. Since there is no requirement for their rural customers to use oxygenates required by the EPA in and around major cities I suspect that is why I have been successful in using the fuel I do. As a side note, the source of oil for this particular refinery are small mom-and-pop oil wells scattered throughout southern Indiana and Illinois. So when people talk about lessening the dependence on foreign oil, I can honestly say that most of the fuel we buy is sourced from a domestic supplier of crude oil. I also drive a 50-mpg diesel car. Needless to say my motivation for running autogas in my airplane goes beyond just saving a considerable chunk of $$ annually.
On another related note, I have a couple of friends with Rockets who I have flown cross-country with many times. Every time we go somewhere we all fill up and at our fuel stops we have a friendly contest to see who burned the least amount of fuel. And every time, without fail, the Rockets beat the RV's in least fuel used by a gallon or two. Every time the aircraft which use the most fuel are the carbureted RV's with O-320's and fixed pitch props. Its funny how counter intuitive that is.
Regards,
Bob Japundza
RV-6 flying, F1 under const.
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gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:06 am Post subject: "you're gonna die because you use autogas" |
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| Quote: | From: SCOTT SPENCER <aerokinetic(at)sbcglobal.net (aerokinetic(at)sbcglobal.net)>
There seems to be an attitude especially decidedly
anti-mogas. It would appear to be an elitist sort of thing.
I've flown with plenty of "holier than thou types" who
>disdain mogas (but have absolutely no experience with it).
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There has been an abundance of sarcastic condescending
attitude, as apparent from you post's title. It's a waste of
time in a constructive dialog or discourse.
You have your story wrong. I even said I'd consider
MOgas with a LOW compression engine and proper
protection against vapor lock. Provided I could readily
get good MOgas.
MOgas has been at the scene of the accident, some fatal
a few times. Sorry if that upsets you. Even Glasair in their
hey day recognized it and switched to selling Lycs for their
kits with fuel pump cooling shrouds. WHY? Even AVgas
can vapor lock. The first of their tight cowl hi-perf kits
suffered vapor lock.
BTW If any one wants a mechanical fuel pump cooling
shroud, here is a source. (see products, last item)
http://www.showplanes.com/index_1024.htm
Scott apparently the way you deal with important safety
info is name calling. So if you don't like what you hear you
want to shut them up by insulting them. Nice move.
My way is to educate people and give them the information
to make good decisions and mitigate or minimize the risk.
I suggest people get the full scoop and know the negatives
as well as the positive, cost savings. There was and still is
decidedly one side dialog going on. I made my point for the
good presenting the other side. Too bad if you don't like it.
For some reason if someone has a different view the
procedure is to attack the person and make personal
comments. Sad. There is no room for emotion and denial
in aviation safety. Deal with it.
You quote Bob as an example and say SEE! Bob is some
one who is very careful and a model for others planning
auto fuel. Never once did I say MOgas operations can not
or never be done safely, BUT it does take great and extra
care.
I don't care what you do, but I sure would hate another
RV'er to crash and say, hey I did not understand vapor
lock or octane. No else mentioned it, so I did.
Scott it's not disdain for your beloved MOgas, just a
cautious approach, that's all. Excuse me for having
an opinion that's different than yours. Have a nice day.
Cheers Captain AVgas,
give me 100/100LL or give me death. (sarcasm)
Sneak preview the [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40762/*http://www.yahoo.com/preview] all-new Yahoo.com[/url]. It's not radically different. Just radically better.
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