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Ammeter Shunt

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frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:23 am Post subject: Ammeter Shunt

Ahh...Therein lies the question.



I personally  put it in the Alternator B lead. In fact I have 2

alternators so I purchased an extra shunt and put one in each b lead...I

used a changeover switch labelled amps#1 and Amps#2.



I use the SD8 as a backup and will simply flip the switch over to read

how the SD8 is performing compared to knowing how many amps it will make

at say 2600RPM.



Frank



--

lhelming(at)sigecom.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:17 pm Post subject: Ammeter Shunt

I did mine with #2 of your possible choices.  Works fine.  Shows me what 

seems to be the load being consumed and therefore being produced by the Alt. 

Larry in Indiana with RV7 flying



---

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:50 pm Post subject: Ammeter Shunt

7/11/2006



Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Mark 

Chamberlain" <mchamberlain(at)runbox.com>



Hello Mark, I would appreciate some help from you and others to better 

understand this subject.



You wrote: "1. Amps in and out of battery (-60a to 60a)"



I understand the above statement and how to wire in order to measure all of 

those amps.



If one puts the shunt in the wire going from the battery plus terminal to 

the input to the battery contactor you will be able (with the proper kind of 

guage) to measure all of the amps going into and out of the battery itself. 

This presumes that: A) The alternator B lead is connected to the battery 

through the contactor output terminal, and B) That you are operating such 

that you don't have some sort of endurance / essential bus or hot battery 

bus, also connected directly to the battery plus terminal, that is feeding 

amps to some portion of the aircraft's system not through the wire going to 

the battery contactor.



You wrote: "3. Amps used by aircraft load only."



I understand how this can be measured by placing the shunt in a wire going 

from the battery contactor output terminal to the aircraft's main power 

distribution bus. Amps from the alternator, which has its B lead connected 

to the battery contactor output terminal, and, if need be, amps from the 

battery, would flow through this shunt to carry the aircraft system's load. 

Again with no "back door" flows not going through this wire.



You wrote: "2. Amps in to the battery from the alternator only."



I am not sure what you mean by this statement. Do you mean "Only the amps 

that are flowing from the alternator into the battery and none of the amps 

that are flowing from the alternator into the aircraft systems?"



Assuming that we are talking about a simple system with only one battery and 

one alternator there are only two sources of amps possible -- the battery 

and the alternator. Recall that the amperage flowing into the battery from 

the alternator is one of the two things being measured as wired in scenario 

1 above.



Can you please explain what you mean by statement 2 and how one would wire 

to accomplish it?



I know that Bob Nuckolls has a very low opininion of some electrical 

instrumentation in the aircraft's instrument panel and the pilot's 

expectations of beneficially using that instrumentation in flight. I am 

basically in agreement with him and am not trying to wire an airplane. I 

just want to better understand the concepts involved. Thanks.



OC



Time: 10:48:18 AM PST US




<mchamberlain(at)runbox.com>



Hi All,

I am about to install the Dynon Ammeter Shunt that comes with the 180

FlightDeck. It can be installed in 3 locations that can read either:

1. Amps

in and out of battery (-60a to 60a),

2. Amps in to the battery from the alternator only

3. Amps used by aircraft load only.

My question is: where would be the best location to put it? Suggestions 

welcomed.

Thanks for your help,

Mark

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:10 pm Post subject: Ammeter Shunt

On Jul 11, 2006, at 7:40 PM, <bakerocb(at)cox.net> <bakerocb(at)cox.net>  

wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   You wrote: "2. Amps in to the battery from the alternator only."



 I am not sure what you mean by this statement. Do you mean "Only  

 the amps that are flowing from the alternator into the battery and  

 none of the amps that are flowing from the alternator into the  

 aircraft systems?"



 Assuming that we are talking about a simple system with only one  

 battery and one alternator there are only two sources of amps  

 possible -- the battery and the alternator. Recall that the  

 amperage flowing into the battery from the alternator is one of the  

 two things being measured as wired in scenario 1 above.



 Can you please explain what you mean by statement 2 and how one  

 would wire to accomplish it?


	


I think that he meant the output of the alternator so it was a  

misprint. Still, if you think about it, if you have a shunt in the  

lead to the battery, when the alternator is working that shunt will  

measure only current from the alternator to the battery. If the  

alternator is off-line that same shunt will show all the loads as  

they are now being powered by the battery, not the alternator.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I know that Bob Nuckolls has a very low opininion of some  

 electrical instrumentation in the aircraft's instrument panel and  

 the pilot's expectations of beneficially using that instrumentation  

 in flight. I am basically in agreement with him and am not trying  

 to wire an airplane. I just want to better understand the concepts  

 involved. Thanks.


	


I am a fan of the alternator load meter. It is amazing how, during  

the day you look down at that ammeter and wonder why there are about  

5A more load than usual. That is when you realize that you  

inadvertently left the position lights on from your last night  

flight. (And if any of you tell me you haven't done this I will say  

that you are not telling the whole truth.)



For what it's worth, I actually see a use for the battery ammeter. I  

like to see how long it takes the battery to stop accepting current  

from the alternator. This tells me when the battery has replaced its  

lost charge. The time also gives me an inkling of battery capacity.  

When the battery has lost most of its capacity it will "recharge"  

much more quickly than usual. It is another one of those things that  

you just get a feel for, kind of like the way the engine sounds and  

where the controls are under normal circumstances. Oil pressure is  

not a particularly useful gauge until it says something new and  

different too. It is just another one of those ways that you "feel"  

the way the airplane and its systems are working.

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

jonlaury(at)impulse.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:50 am Post subject: Ammeter Shunt

Brian,

  

 Am I understanding correctly, that with a shunt  between the alternator and battery,  the ammeter will display amp load on  the battery when the alternator is off-line?

  

 John

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:01 am Post subject: Ammeter Shunt

7/12/2006



Hello Mark, Thanks for the quick response.



You wrote: "In the diagram I have from Dynon it says that if you put the 

shunt

between the alternator and the battery (somewhere in the main power lead

from the alternator) it will measure only amps coming from the

alternator."



Yes, I agree. And those amps will be flowing into both the aircraft systems 

and into recharging the battery if the voltage regulator is holding the 

alternator output voltage at a battery charging level.



There is no way that I know of to wire the aircraft using only one shunt or 

Hall effect device in a way that will display the alternator load share 

between aircraft systems and battery charging.



So your three choices are:



A) As You wrote: "1. Amps in and out of battery (-60a to 60a)"



B) As You wrote: "3. Amps used by aircraft load only."



C) Or, Amps flowing out of the alternator to both charge the battery and 

feed the aircraft systems in some unknown proportion. (Per the diagram from 

Dynon)



So where are you going to put the shunt?



OC

---

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:49 am Post subject: Ammeter Shunt

On Jul 12, 2006, at 1:42 PM, John Burnaby wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Brian,



 Am I understanding correctly, that with a shunt between the  

 alternator and battery,  the ammeter will display amp load on the  

 battery when the alternator is off-line?


	


Bob's book explains this better than I can but I will take a stab at it.



There is a point in the electrical system where the alternator, the  

battery, and the distribution bus all connect together. This is  

usually at the junction of the battery master contactor and the  

starting contactor. (It may also be at your positive distribution  

point for your bus.) You can put an ammeter shunt or a hall-effect  

current sensor in any one of the three wires coming to that point.



1. If you put the shunt in the wire (B-lead) from the alternator, the  

ammeter will read the current being drawn from the alternator. This  

is usually called a "load meter".



2. If you put the shunt in the wire going to the distribution bus,  

the ammeter will read the loads on the electrical system.



3. If you put the shunt in the lead going to the battery, the ammeter  

will read the current going from the alternator to the battery when  

the alternator is on-line and the battery is charging (positive amps)  

or it will read the bus loads if the alternator is off-line (negative  

amps). This is the typical center-zero battery ammeter you find in  

most Cessna aircraft.



(Piper switched from #3 to #1 somewhere along the line. I think  

Cessna still uses #3. The only place I have seen #2 is on larger  

aircraft with multiple charging and load buses.)



Bob doesn't like the center-zero battery ammeter (#3) and I have to  

admit, it is not particularly useful most of the time. When the  

battery is charging it shows charging current but that drops to zero  

so you really can't tell anything. OTOH, if the alternator goes off- 

line, you can see the loads and estimate the remaining battery "run- 

time" by seeing how many amps you are pulling out of it. If you have  

a 25AH battery and you are drawing 5A, you can expect the battery to  

provide power for about 5 hours before it goes dead.



(And for those of you who are about to correct me to tell me that  

when you draw more amps from a battery its amp-hour rating goes down,  

you are correct but I am trying to make a general point here with  

relatively simple arithmetic and without a discussion of Peukert's  

exponent.)



The bottom line is that you cannot tell everything about the current  

flows in your electrical system without at least TWO ammeters.



But Bob is certainly right about needing a voltmeter. It is more  

useful than an ammeter under just about every condition.



Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brianl at lloyd dot com             Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



"Five percent of the people think.

  Ten percent of the people think they think.

  Eighty-five percent of the people would rather die than think."

        ---Thomas A. Edison





Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

bicyclop(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 4:57 pm Post subject: Ammeter Shunt

Yeah---but, if the alternator is offline, won't you shut off the

contactor to save the 1 amp (and shed loads) and isn't the shunt now

offline?



Pax,



Ed Holyoke



--

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:27 pm Post subject: Ammeter Shunt

On Jul 12, 2006, at 8:49 PM, Ed Holyoke wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <bicyclop(at)pacbell.net>



 Yeah---but, if the alternator is offline, won't you shut off the

 contactor to save the 1 amp (and shed loads) and isn't the shunt now

 offline?


	


It depends on how you wire your electrical system. If I have 5 hours  

of battery life including the battery contactor and I have 4 hours of  

fuel on board ...



But if you have a separate battery feed to your endurance bus you  

might want a second shunt to read loads on the endurance bus. You may  

want then information to load shed to increase battery endurance.



Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:21 am Post subject: Ammeter Shunt

On Jul 12, 2006, at 9:22 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   It depends on how you wire your electrical system. If I have 5  

 hours of battery life including the battery contactor and I have 4  

 hours of fuel on board ...



 But if you have a separate battery feed to your endurance bus you  

 might want a second shunt to read loads on the endurance bus. You  

 may want then information to load shed to increase battery endurance.


	


A further comment: the original question was on the ammeter shunt (or  

hall-effect sensor). There are many ways to craft the topology of  

your electrical system as Bob has shown in his book and discussions  

herein. But there are only a few places you can put an ammeter and  

get meaningful information.



1. You can put one in series with any source of power (alternator,  

generator, dynamo) and find out how much current it is delivering.



2. You can put one in series with a battery and see either its  

charging current or loads when the charging current is insufficient  

to carry all the loads (as in when the alternator is turning too  

slowly or is off-line).



3. You can put one in series with a load or loads and see how much  

current that device or devices demand from the system.



If you change the path so that the current no longer travels through  

the shunt then you won't get any reading. Heck, you can put the shunt  

permanently in the path to the battery so it always shows battery  

current, even starting current. Then you can always see what is going  

into and coming out of your battery. Just make sure your shunt is  

beefy enough to handle the starting currents.



The above is true regardless of the number of alternators or  

batteries in your system.



Bob makes a point that all this discussion is so you can craft your  

electrical system to do what YOU want it to do. You may have  

different reasons to measure current than Bob or I do. Bob doesn't  

like the center-zero battery ammeter and I understand that. I have  

developed new respect for this instrument in applications where one  

will be running from battery power.



Here is another way of looking at it. If you have two sources of  

power (alternators/dynamos) you are never going to be running your  

loads off your battery. It is only needed to start the airplane. The  

center-zero battery ammeter is almost useless in that system. OTOH if  

you have a single alternator system and will depend on the battery to  

get you to your destination should the alternator fail, you might  

want to know what the loads are so you can estimate remaining battery  

capacity. Now the center-zero ammeter is useful.



I have a boat with a 1000AH battery bank. That battery bank provides  

all of the boat's power when I am at sea. I have to periodically  

recharge it. I want to know how much capacity I have consumed so I  

know how much is left and I want to know when it is fully charged. In  

this application the battery ammeter/shunt is critical. No other tool  

will suffice.



So it all depends on your application.



Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

bob(at)flyboybob.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:03 am Post subject: Ammeter Shunt

Brian Lloyd Wrote:

<<

But if you have a separate battery feed to your endurance bus you

might want a second shunt to read loads on the endurance bus.

 	  Quote: 	
		  >


	


If you use a hall-effect sensor rather than a shunt you could run the

endurance bus feed as well as the battery bus feed through the sensor and

that way the ammeter would report total of battery bus and endurance bus

(depending on which one was energized).



Regards,



Bob Lee

N52BL  KR2

Suwanee, GA

91% done only 65% to go!

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:24 am Post subject: Ammeter Shunt

At 08:02 AM 7/13/2006 -0400, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Brian Lloyd Wrote:

<<

But if you have a separate battery feed to your endurance bus you

might want a second shunt to read loads on the endurance bus.

 >>



If you use a hall-effect sensor rather than a shunt you could run the

endurance bus feed as well as the battery bus feed through the sensor and

that way the ammeter would report total of battery bus and endurance bus

(depending on which one was energized).


	


   Battery busses and endurance busses (if wired per the z-figures)

   are always energized in one way or another. There is one pretty

   useful dual-feedline use for a hall-sensor. You can run both

   alternator leads thorough it and have it read total load for

   both machines operating either independently or together.



   The questions to be asked and answered are: If I want to install

   any form of current monitoring device on the panel, what is

   the design goal for utility?  One can select from a variety

   of locations all of which will present different information

   and different dynamics. Keep in mind that the first task to

   be completed for any architecture is a load analysis based on

   distribution of equipment across the various busses. The load

   analysis tells you that for any and all operating conditions,

   no current limited is exceeded -OR- during "plan-b" ops,

   certain loads must be turned off to meet endurance goals

   or to observe certain PRE-DETERMINED load limits.



   Bottom line is that EVERY current draw for EVERY mode of

   operation should be known to you before your first flight.

   An ammeter display of any variety is but one snapshot into

   system performance that might have some usefulness during

   a future troubleshooting activity as a technician. But

   if one has done their homework before first flight,

   ammeters are 95% useless to operating the airplane as

   pilot.



   I'm not trying discourage all the discussion about where

   shunts/hall-sensors can be placed and what they will show.

   But for the 1300 or so who are not participating in the

   conversation, know that whatever deductions are

   accomplished, don't think that ANY ammeter has much

   utility as an aid to flight operations no matter where

   it's installed.



   Bob . . .





      ---------------------------------------------------------

      < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >

      < the authority which determines whether there can be   >

      < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of   >

      < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests     >

      < with experiment.                                      >

      <                            --Lawrence M. Krauss       >

      ---------------------------------------------------------

Speedy11(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:09 am Post subject: Ammeter Shunt

Brian,

 I'm one of those ignorant pilots who believes that an ammeter can provide useful information while in flight, so I intend to install one along with a voltmeter.  I'm crafting my electrical system to do what I want it to do.

  

 Do you, or anyone, know of one that is a digital center-zero meter?  How about a combo digital ammeter-voltmeter?

 I plan to use hall effect devices and I'm going to mount them in at least three places in the electrical system.  I also plan to sample the voltage at the same locations in the electrical system.  I'm still deciding where those locations will be, but they will likely be on the alternator lead, at the main battery and at the standby battery.  Other potential locations are the main bus and the standby bus.  I plan to route the sensor wires to a rotary selector switch so as to be able to view any of the sensor locations on a single ammeter and voltmeter.  Too much effort and expense for little or no gain? Perhaps, but it's the way I want it.

 I believe that by using HE devices instead of shunts I would not have to worry about making the shunt beefy enough to handle the starting loads.  Is there any advantage to using a shunt that I'm overlooking?

  

 Has anyone found a good source for donut HE devices?

 Thanks,

 Stan Sutterfield

 www.rv-8a.net

  

  	  Quote: 	
		  1. You can put one in series with any source of power (alternator,  

generator, dynamo) and find out how much current it is delivering.



2. You can put one in series with a battery and see either its  

charging current or loads when the charging current is insufficient  

to carry all the loads (as in when the alternator is turning too  

slowly or is off-line).



3. You can put one in series with a load or loads and see how much  

current that device or devices demand from the system.



If you change the path so that the current no longer travels through  

the shunt then you won't get any reading. Heck, you can put the shunt  

permanently in the path to the battery so it always shows battery  

current, even starting current. Then you can always see what is going  

into and coming out of your battery. Just make sure your shunt is  

beefy enough to handle the starting currents.



The above is true regardless of the number of alternators or  

batteries in your system.



Bob makes a point that all this discussion is so you can craft your  

electrical system to do what YOU want it to do. You may have  

different reasons to measure current than Bob or I do. Bob doesn't  

like the center-zero battery ammeter and I understand that. I have  

developed new respect for this instrument in applications where one  

will be running from battery power.



Here is another way of looking at it. If you have two sources of  

power (alternators/dynamos) you are never going to be running your  

loads off your battery. It is only needed to start the airplane. The  

center-zero battery ammeter is almost useless in that system. OTOH if  

you have a single alternator system and will depend on the battery to  

get you to your destination should the alternator fail, you might  

want to know what the loads are so you can estimate remaining battery  

capacity. Now the center-zero ammeter is useful.



I have a boat with a 1000AH battery bank. That battery bank provides  

all of the boat's power when I am at sea. I have to periodically  

recharge it. I want to know how much capacity I have consumed so I  

know how much is left and I want to know when it is fully charged. In  

this application the battery ammeter/shunt is critical. No other tool  

will suffice.

recapen(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:39 am Post subject: Ammeter Shunt

Vision Microsystems uses one for their current detection (uses four wires and a shield).......I have one installed and was thinking about something along the lines of what you're doing......

  

 My question is where are you getting the rotary switch to switch the four wires?  (I would gang all of the shields)



 [quote]--

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:28 am Post subject: Ammeter Shunt

On Jul 14, 2006, at 10:37 AM, Ralph E. Capen wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Vision Microsystems uses one for their current detection (uses four  

 wires and a shield).......I have one installed and was thinking  

 about something along the lines of what you're doing......



 My question is where are you getting the rotary switch to switch  

 the four wires?  (I would gang all of the shields)


	


You may find that you only need to switch one or maybe two wires. At  

least one wire is power in and one other is power ground. You can  

probably leave those hooked up all the time and not switch them. I  

would guess that one of the other wires is output and one is signal  

ground or maybe it has a differential output.



Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:39 am Post subject: Ammeter Shunt

On Jul 14, 2006, at 10:03 AM, Speedy11(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Brian,

 I'm one of those ignorant pilots who believes that an ammeter can  

 provide useful information while in flight, so I intend to install  

 one along with a voltmeter.  I'm crafting my electrical system to  

 do what I want it to do.


	


Well, if only ignorant pilot believe that an ammeter provides useful  

information then I am an ignorant pilot too.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Do you, or anyone, know of one that is a digital center-zero  

 meter?  How about a combo digital ammeter-voltmeter?


	


There are a lot of companies that make volt/ammeter combination  

gauges. I have not seen an analog center-zero ammeter that is also a  

combination volt/ammeter. The digital ones will usually show a sign  

on the current indication thus allowing you to see the magnitude of  

both charge and discharge. You should be able to find either analog  

or digital to suit your taste.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I plan to use hall effect devices and I'm going to mount them in at  

 least three places in the electrical system.  I also plan to sample  

 the voltage at the same locations in the electrical system.  I'm  

 still deciding where those locations will be, but they will likely  

 be on the alternator lead, at the main battery and at the standby  

 battery.  Other potential locations are the main bus and the  

 standby bus.  I plan to route the sensor wires to a rotary selector  

 switch so as to be able to view any of the sensor locations on a  

 single ammeter and voltmeter.  Too much effort and expense for  

 little or no gain? Perhaps, but it's the way I want it.


	


Then that is how you should do it. It is your airplane and you should  

equip it the way you like.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I believe that by using HE devices instead of shunts I would not  

 have to worry about making the shunt beefy enough to handle the  

 starting loads.  Is there any advantage to using a shunt that I'm  

 overlooking?


	


Shunts are more accurate. When there is zero voltage across the  

terminals of a shunt there is definitely no current through the  

shunt. Hall effect devices exhibit offset error and can be affected  

by other nearby conductors carrying current. But in most cases they  

are just fine.



Bipolar hall effect sensors usually have their output midway between  

ground and the supply voltage (typically +5V) when they are sensing  

zero current. So +2.5V really means zero current. You just need to  

calibrate your indicator accordingly.



Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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