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bo124rs(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:37 am Post subject: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.homebuilt/browse_thread/thread/688f409b9c514e53/25ddcbef1957bb52#25ddcbef1957bb52');

I know the guy this was directed at on a plastic airplane list.  He has 

fought city hall a couple time on citations and won each time.  This time it 

looks like the city has swung for the fence.  If you look closely the first 

draft it says you can't build in airplane in your unenclosed garage but the 

final one on the mayor's desk leaves out unenclosed and says you can't build 

in your garage.

Dana Overall

Richmond, KY i39

RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic"

O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4

http://rvflying.tripod.com/id30.html

do not archive



_________________________________________________________________

jamie(at)jpainter.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:10 am Post subject: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida

 	  Quote: 	
		  I know the guy this was directed at on a plastic airplane list.  He has fought city hall a couple time on citations and won each time.  This time it looks like the city has swung for the fence.  If you look closely the first draft it says you can't build in airplane in your unenclosed garage but the final one on the mayor's desk leaves out unenclosed and says you can't build in your garage.   

 	
 Read it closely again.  

 

         (a) Flying craft and airboats shall not be parked or stored, other 

 than in completely enclosed buildings, on residentially-zoned property, 

 including residential PUD districts and properties with a residential 

 component in a mixed-use PUD district.  Airboats may however, be parked 

 or stored in the water adjacent to, on docking facilities of, or in a 

 yard fronting a navigable waterbody of, a residential PUD district and 

 a property in the residential portion of a mixed-use PUD district. 

 

         (b) Repairing, testing, operation, constructing, modifying or altering 

 flying craft and airboats shall be prohibited in all residential 

 districts, including residential PUD districts and properties with a 

 residential component in a mixed-use PUD district. 

 

 The way I read it...if you store your aircraft or airboat in a residential area it must be covered...but ANY airplane or airboat construction/maintenance would be illegal in residential areas.  So much for liberty.

 

 do not archive

 

 Jamie D. Painter

 http://rv.jpainter.org

mike
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:20 am Post subject: Re: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida

I wrote this on the rv7 list, but it's not an airplane until the FAA says it is. Until then it's just a pile of metal.

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:01 am Post subject: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida

I think the part about constructing flying craft would cover building an airplane.

I have to wonder about the original problem.  Did the person in question work on his airplane in a fashion that could be considered annoying to his neighbors?  This would include obnoxious noises or odors, wafting paint spray, loud boom box, etc?  If the guy were building in an "unenclosed garage", I can see some possible reasons for the neighbor to raise an uproar.



You have to ask yourself how the neighbor knew he was building an airplane and why she would care.  You also have to wonder why the city council would put this much effort into making him stop.  And you have to wonder what kind of city it is -- or what kind of person the builder is -- that he can't just go to the city council and say, "What's the big deal?"



It would be interesting to see if the city can actually enforce a restriction like this, but probably expensive to defend.



-Joe



do not archive



On Jul 18, 2006, at 10:20 AM, Jamie Painter wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    

  	  Quote: 	
		  I know the guy this was directed at on a plastic airplane list.  He has fought city hall a couple time on citations and won each time.  This time it looks like the city has swung for the fence.  If you look closely the first draft it says you can't build in airplane in your unenclosed garage but the final one on the mayor's desk leaves out unenclosed and says you can't build in your garage.  

 	
 Read it closely again.  

 

         (a) Flying craft and airboats shall not be parked or stored, other 

 than in completely enclosed buildings, on residentially-zoned property, 

 including residential PUD districts and properties with a residential 

 component in a mixed-use PUD district.  Airboats may however, be parked 

 or stored in the water adjacent to, on docking facilities of, or in a 

 yard fronting a navigable waterbody of, a residential PUD district and 

 a property in the residential portion of a mixed-use PUD district. 

 

         (b) Repairing, testing, operation, constructing, modifying or altering 

 flying craft and airboats shall be prohibited in all residential 

 districts, including residential PUD districts and properties with a 

 residential component in a mixed-use PUD district. 

 

 The way I read it...if you store your aircraft or airboat in a residential area it must be covered...but ANY airplane or airboat construction/maintenance would be illegal in residential areas.  So much for liberty.

 

 do not archive

 

 Jamie D. Painter

 http://rv.jpainter.org

n5lp(at)warpdriveonline.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:06 am Post subject: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida

It also appears to say that you can not park your glider trailer,  

with glider inside, anywhere in residential areas.  Not even for five  

minutes, it would appear.



Guess there are advantages to living in the "backwoods."

On Jul 18, 2006, at 9:20 AM, Jamie Painter wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

> I know the guy this was directed at on a plastic airplane list.   

> He has fought city hall a couple time on citations and won each  

> time.  This time it looks like the city has swung for the fence.   

> If you look closely the first draft it says you can't build in  

> airplane in your unenclosed garage but the final one on the  

> mayor's desk leaves out unenclosed and says you can't build in  

> your garage.

 Read it closely again.



         (a) Flying craft and airboats shall not be parked or  

 stored, other

 than in completely enclosed buildings, on residentially-zoned  

 property,

 including residential PUD districts and properties with a residential

 component in a mixed-use PUD district.  Airboats may however, be  

 parked

 or stored in the water adjacent to, on docking facilities of, or in a

 yard fronting a navigable waterbody of, a residential PUD district and

 a property in the residential portion of a mixed-use PUD district.




	


do not archive



Larry Pardue

Carlsbad, NM



RV-6 N441LP Flying

http://n5lp.net

mike
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida

I was thinking the same thing about upsetting the neighbor thing.  Got to get a hoot of this though.  If the the guy wants to push it they really can't do anything. Like I said it's not an airplane until the FAA says so.  Then if they change it to read that you can't build or modify anything on your premise, than you can't build any car ports or anything of the likeing, even fix your dish washer. It is amazing how someone that is called a mayor can think he can be a hitler. Just my thoughts.

klwerner(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:57 am Post subject: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida

So that's how they think they  can do things on the bottom right coast?

  

 This kind of BS ain't happenin'  here in Wild-West-Country without someone "accidentally" getting shot right in  the beginning, as we wanna keep  things friendly and under control here .....

  

 do not archive / but do fight  this BS !!!

  

 [quote]   ---

dbris200(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:02 am Post subject: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida

Sounds like it's time to get EAA and AOPA involved.

 

 Dave

 do not archive

 

 

 Joseph Larson wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I think the part about constructing flying craft would cover building an airplane.         

   I have to wonder about the original problem.  Did the person in question work on his airplane in a fashion that could be considered annoying to his neighbors?  This would include obnoxious noises or odors, wafting paint spray, loud boom box, etc?  If the guy were building in an "unenclosed garage", I can see some possible reasons for the neighbor to raise an uproar.

      

   You have to ask yourself how the neighbor knew he was building an airplane and why she would care.  You also have to wonder why the city council would put this much effort into making him stop.  And you have to wonder what kind of city it is -- or what kind of person the builder is -- that he can't just go to the city council and say, "What's the big deal?"

      

   It would be interesting to see if the city can actually enforce a restriction like this, but probably expensive to defend.

      

   -Joe

      

   do not archive

   

      On Jul 18, 2006, at 10:20 AM, Jamie Painter wrote:

       	  Quote: 	
		   

      	  Quote: 	
		  I know the guy this was directed at on a plastic airplane list.  He has fought city hall a couple time on citations and won each time.  This time it looks like the city has swung for the fence.  If you look closely the first draft it says you can't build in airplane in your unenclosed garage but the final one on the mayor's desk leaves out unenclosed and says you can't build in your garage. 

     	
 Read it closely again.  

     

         (a) Flying craft and airboats shall not be parked or stored, other 

 than in completely enclosed buildings, on residentially-zoned property,     

 including residential PUD districts and properties with a residential 

 component in a mixed-use PUD district.  Airboats may however, be parked     

 or stored in the water adjacent to, on docking facilities of, or in a 

 yard fronting a navigable waterbody of, a residential PUD district and 

 a property in the residential portion of a mixed-use PUD district. 

     

         (b) Repairing, testing, operation, constructing, modifying or altering 

 flying craft and airboats shall be prohibited in all residential 

 districts, including residential PUD districts and properties with a 

 residential component in a mixed-use PUD district. 

     

 The way I read it...if you store your aircraft or airboat in a residential area it must be covered...but ANY airplane or airboat construction/maintenance would be illegal in residential areas.  So much for liberty.

     

 do not archive

     

 Jamie D. Painter

     http://rv.jpainter.org

rv8ch

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:15 am Post subject: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida

 	  Quote: 	
		   It also appears to say that you can not park your glider trailer, with 

 glider inside, anywhere in residential areas.  Not even for five 

 minutes, it would appear.

 

 Guess there are advantages to living in the "backwoods."


	


Actually, the city in question is also the county, so even

those with acreage will not be allowed to build an RV in

their garage or workshop.



-- 

Mickey Coggins

http://www.rv8.ch/

#82007 finishing

do not archive

_________________
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/

mike
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:25 am Post subject: Re: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida

Before anybody gets riled up, I would like to hear how the guy fired everybody up first.

recapen(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:25 am Post subject: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida

We should hear both sides of the story - but we should NOT allow our governments to treat us like this!

flyrv6(at)bryantechnology
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:08 am Post subject: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida

Kitfoxmike,

  

 It doesn't matter since they are not restricting him, they are wanting to restrict everybody.  I would suggest someone has more history than a single incident.  This can't be allowed to happen.

  

 Tim

  

 [i]----

jpl(at)showpage.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:56 am Post subject: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida

It would be reasonable for a city to limit what is done in semi-public (visible from the street) places.  My city, for instance, requires people to do things like cut their grass and keep their garbage cans out of sight (except as required for pickup).  It would be reasonable for the city to prevent folks from running a car repair business (or any business that generates traffic) in a residential area.  It would also be reasonable to limit any construction-like activities in a residential area when those activities can produce an eyesore or violate some sort of noise restrictions.

Consider how you would like to live next door to a guy who does auto body work until a couple hours past your bedtime, for instance.  Even if it's not for a living -- he builds hot rods or something, and he's always running a sand blaster late.  Or whatever hot rod guys do.  Or if the guy keeps a couple of crappy junkers parked in his front yard.



But... if it's in your basement or a contained garage with suitable noise insulation if required, you don't care.  And the city shouldn't care.



I think there's more going on here than we know about.  I suspect the city has been having a variety of problems.  City council may be receiving all sorts of complaints all over the city.



Maybe this builder's carport is just outside the complaining woman's bedroom window, and he's using caustic materials, which the wind happily wafts right into her house.  I wouldn't want to be living next to that -- an activity that the guy wears a respirator for, but his noxious gases are floating into my house.  That would annoy me to no end, actually, and I'd find a way to stop it.



Or maybe it's not this guy doing it, but some of the other guys in town.  We just don't know.



If we don't want to see this kind of rule making all over, it's to our benefit to make sure that our hobby doesn't negatively impact anyone else.



-Joe



On Jul 18, 2006, at 2:06 PM, Tim Bryan wrote:

[quote]   Kitfoxmike,

  

 It doesn't matter since they are not restricting him, they are wanting to restrict everybody.  I would suggest someone has more history than a single incident.  This can't be allowed to happen.

  

 Tim

  

 [i]----

3edcft6(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:29 pm Post subject: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida

kitfoxmike wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Before anybody gets riled up, I would like to hear how the guy fired everybody up first.

  




	


Whatever he did, it does not justify the government taking away the 

rights of law abiding citizens.



do not archive



-- 

Chris W

KE5GIX

bo124rs(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:50 am Post subject: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida

The guy involved in the action has a neighbor from h$ll.  The city has a log 

of complaints from her that is nearly daily on this guy.  He is not working 

with cautic materials, making loud noises or storing junk/trash in the front 

yard.  He has, on occasion, had two airplanes...one in an enclosed garage, 

at his house.  He fought city hall on there terms and won every time.  On 

one occasion he was moving his airplane via trailer and got complained on 

because the airplane was out of his backyard on the trailer in his driveway 

awaiting his exit from his front door to drive to the airport.  He in 

essense pissed the city off by beating them at there own game.  Case in 

point, the city charged him with violating a previous order by working on an 

airplane.......he counter with, it's not an airplane until it has an N 

number..........won in court after spending a couple thousand.  One only 

needs to look at the final draft.........you will not be able to build your 

RV in your enclosed garage in this county.



BTW, AOPA says there is nothing they can do.  Yet to hear from the EAA



Dana Overall

Richmond, KY i39

RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic"

O 360 A1A, C/S C2YK-1BF/F7666A4

http://rvflying.tripod.com/id30.html

do not archive



_________________________________________________________________

mike
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:49 am Post subject: Re: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida

I think if this guy is truely in need the aircaft community should ban together and get both EAA and AOPA involved.  Spreading the problem throughout the country with the news media sounds appropriate as well.  Letters to our representatives might be in order as well.  sounds to me like this is total BS.

JDelamarter(at)lycoming.t
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:21 am Post subject: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida

I thought you guys might be interested in the email I sent this morning to

the President and Vice President of the Jacksonville City Council.  I know

it's long, but I hope it will be effective.  

Gentlemen:

Due to the diligence of my fellow aviators, it has come to my attention that

the City of Jacksonville, FL has recently enacted Sec. 656.420 amending

Chapter 656 of the zoning code.  It is my belief that this amendment will

limit or eliminate the rights of citizens within the constraints of this

code from pursuing activities which are neither commercial in nature nor

threatening in anyway to the citizens of Jacksonville.  I would encourage

the members of your counsel to contact the Experimental Aircraft Association

(www.eaa.org <http://www.eaa.org> ) for an eye-opening overview of the scope

and importance of our sport.  We have approximately 900 chapters

nation-wide, approximately 1000 chapters worldwide, and represent the

largest organization of our type in existence.  Through our programs, we

fund and administer programs which enrich the lives of America and the

world.  Through our Young Eagles program alone, we have introduced the

wonder of flight to well over a million young Americans.  These flights were

provided at absolutely no cost to the community.  Time, equipment, and

expenses are paid for by our membership.  Oh by the way, you may have heard

of the president of our Young Eagles organization.  His name is Harrison

Ford.  When several hundred thousand of us aviation-minded citizens get

together next week for our annual gathering in Oshkosh, Wisconsin, our

presence will turn this normally average airport into the busiest airport in

the world for an entire week.  Chuck Yeager, Bud Anderson, and many other

veteran heroes are regular attendees.  Last year, Spaceship One stopped at

our Oshkosh gathering for it's only public appearance on it's way to the

Smithsonian.  By the way, the folks who designed, built, and flew the

Voyager (first non-stop flight around the world), Spaceship One (first

civilian space flight), and the Global Flyer (first solo non-stop flight

around the world) are all EAA members and active participants in aircraft

homebuilding activities.  Our ranks include Hollywood movie stars,

congressmen, and normal folks from all walks of life.  Incidentally, the

very first homebuilders were a couple of bicycle mechanics from Dayton, Ohio

named Orville and Wilbur Wright.  I shudder to think what the outcome would

have been if these American heroes had been residents of Jacksonville, FL.

The next time you or your counsel members board an aircraft of any type on

official business or otherwise, I hope you will remember that you are able

to do so only because of the type of entrepreneurial American spirit you are

currently trying to regulate out of existence.  

Aviators in general and homebuilders specifically represent the absolute

peak of American ingenuity and citizenship.  I believe it would be worth

your while to break away from your duties in Jacksonville for a day or two

and join us in our annual celebration next week in Oshkosh.  Lodging is

impossible to get in Oshkosh at this late date, however, if you would like

to attend, I will personally assure your accommodation and admission.  As a

Florida native, it is my sincere hope that you will do the right thing and

rethink the county's position in this important matter.  Florida is one of

the most active homebuilding states in the Union; the majority of these

folks are retirees.  A large percentage are war veterans.  I believe with

all my heart that if you and your council members will truly understand the

nature of aircraft homebuilding and the integrity of it's participants, you

will welcome and encourage it's activity in your city.  

Sincerely,

Jon A. Delamarter

Thunderbolt Manager

Lycoming Engines

I also thought some of you might care to join me in voicing your protest.

Here is their contact info.



Michael L. Corrigan, Jr.,

President 

Jacksonville City Council

117 West Duval St., Suite 425

Jacksonville, FL 32202

(904) 630-1390

Corrigan(at)coj.net <mailto:corrigan(at)coj.net>  

Daniel J. Davis, 

Vice President 

Jacksonville City Council

117 West Duval St., Suite 425

Jacksonville, FL 32202

(904) 630-1380

DDavis(at)coj.net <mailto:DDavis(at)coj.net> 



NOTICE:  This E-mail (including attachments) is covered by the Electronic

Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§  2510-2521, is confidential and may

be legally privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are

hereby notified that any retention, dissemination, distribution, or copying

of this communication is strictly prohibited.  Please reply to the sender

that you have received the message in error, then delete it.  Thank you.

DOUGPFLYRV(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:32 am Post subject: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida

Outstanding Jon. I wish I had your skills.

  

 Doug Preston

  

  

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

jclarkmail(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:54 am Post subject: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida

EXCELLENT!



Well put, non-abrasive and thus most effective in getting the message

across.



I think we could all benefit from copying with your permission, this letter

and use it as the basis for such letters in the future if needed in our

localities.



Is such permitted?



James

.. from Florida



On 7/19/06, Delamarter, Jon <JDelamarter(at)lycoming.textron.com> wrote:

[quote]

 

 JDelamarter(at)lycoming.textron.com>



 I thought you guys might be interested in the email I sent this morning to

 the President and Vice President of the Jacksonville City Council.  I know

 it's long, but I hope it will be effective.

 Gentlemen:

 Due to the diligence of my fellow aviators, it has come to my attention

 that

 the City of Jacksonville, FL has recently enacted Sec. 656.420 amending

 Chapter 656 of the zoning code.  It is my belief that this amendment will

 limit or eliminate the rights of citizens within the constraints of this

 code from pursuing activities which are neither commercial in nature nor

 threatening in anyway to the citizens of Jacksonville.  I would encourage

 the members of your counsel to contact the Experimental Aircraft

 Association

 (www.eaa.org <http://www.eaa.org> ) for an eye-opening overview of the

 scope

 and importance of our sport.  We have approximately 900 chapters

 nation-wide, approximately 1000 chapters worldwide, and represent the

 largest organization of our type in existence.  Through our programs, we

 fund and administer programs which enrich the lives of America and the

 world.  Through our Young Eagles program alone, we have introduced the

 wonder of flight to well over a million young Americans.  These flights

 were

 provided at absolutely no cost to the community.  Time, equipment, and

 expenses are paid for by our membership.  Oh by the way, you may have

 heard

 of the president of our Young Eagles organization.  His name is Harrison

 Ford.  When several hundred thousand of us aviation-minded citizens get

 together next week for our annual gathering in Oshkosh, Wisconsin, our

 presence will turn this normally average airport into the busiest airport

 in

 the world for an entire week.  Chuck Yeager, Bud Anderson, and many other

 veteran heroes are regular attendees.  Last year, Spaceship One stopped at

 our Oshkosh gathering for it's only public appearance on it's way to the

 Smithsonian.  By the way, the folks who designed, built, and flew the

 Voyager (first non-stop flight around the world), Spaceship One (first

 civilian space flight), and the Global Flyer (first solo non-stop flight

 around the world) are all EAA members and active participants in aircraft

 homebuilding activities.  Our ranks include Hollywood movie stars,

 congressmen, and normal folks from all walks of life.  Incidentally, the

 very first homebuilders were a couple of bicycle mechanics from Dayton,

 Ohio

 named Orville and Wilbur Wright.  I shudder to think what the outcome

 would

 have been if these American heroes had been residents of Jacksonville, FL

wgill10(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:47 am Post subject: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida

What county? Do they have an email account? Maybe we could share our thoughts with them about their decision!

  

 Bill

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "Dana Overall" <bo124rs(at)hotmail.com> 



[quote] --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" 

 

 The guy involved in the action has a neighbor from h$ll. The city has a log 

 of complaints from her that is nearly daily on this guy. He is not working 

 with cautic materials, making loud noises or storing junk/trash in the front 

 yard. He has, on occasion, had two airplanes...one in an enclosed garage, 

 at his house. He fought city hall on there terms and won every time. On 

 one occasion he was moving his airplane via trailer and got complained on 

 because the airplane was out of his backyard on the trailer in his driveway 

 awaiting his exit from his front door to drive to the airport. He in 

 essense pissed the city off by beati  ng the  tures

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