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Kevin Bonds

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Nashville, Tn

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:46 am Post subject: Another Scrap-builder Question.

I ordered what I thought was 6061-T6 1x1-1/2x1/8. Turns out it is 2024-T3. I’m having a hard time finding this odd sized angle. Folks call it architectural angle. What has everyone else done? Use 2024? Cut down some 6061? Source?  

   

Kevin Bonds  

Nashville TN  

601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.  

Empennage done; working on wings and engine.  

http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

_________________
KevinBonds
Nashville, TN
Plans-building Zenith CH601XL w/Corvair Power
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

admin(at)arachnidrobotics
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:52 am Post subject: Another Scrap-builder Question.

   Your best bet is to pick up some 1-1/2 X 1-1/2 X .125 6061-T6 and cut it down.  You can pick it up from Aircraft Spruce or McMaster.com for a good price.



kevinbonds <kevinbonds(at)comcast.net> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		                       <![endif]-->        Clean   Clean   DocumentEmail         false   false   false                 MicrosoftInternetExplorer4   <![endif]-->     <![endif]-->  st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }  <![endif]-->       /* Style Definitions */   table.MsoNormalTable  {mso-style-name:"Table Normal";  mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;  mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;  mso-style-noshow:yes;  mso-style-parent:"";  mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;  mso-para-margin:0in;  mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;  mso-pagination:widow-orphan;  font-size:10.0pt;  font-family:"Times New Roman";  mso-ansi-language:#0400;  mso-fareast-language:#0400;  mso-bidi-language:#0400;}  <![endif]-->     I ordered what I thought was 6061-T6 1x1-1/2x1/8. Turns out it is 2024-T3. Iâ€™m having a hard time finding this odd sized angle. Folks call it architectural angle. What has everyone else done?  Use 2024? Cut down some 6061? Source?

   

  Kevin Bonds

  Nashville TN

  601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.

  Empennage done; working on wings and engine.

  http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

gboothe(at)calply.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:06 am Post subject: Another Scrap-builder Question.

Kevin,  

   

That is â€œextrudedâ€ angle. I am on the West Coast and bought it at a local supplier, but had to buy 1 Â½ x 1 Â½.Â  Iâ€™ll cut to suitâ€¦  

   

Gary Boothe  

Cool, CA  

601 HDSTD, WW Conversion  

Tail done, working on wings....  

         

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom and Bren Henderson

 

   

  

   

   Your best bet is to pick up some 1-1/2 X 1-1/2 X .125 6061-T6 and cut it down.  You can pick it up from Aircraft Spruce or McMaster.com for a good price.

 

 

 

 kevinbonds <kevinbonds(at)comcast.net> wrote:    

                 <![endif]-->                 Clean      Clean      DocumentEmail                  false      false      false                                MicrosoftInternetExplorer4      <![endif]-->        <![endif]-->I ordered what I thought was 6061-T6 1x1-1/2x1/8. Turns out it is 2024-T3. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m having a hard time finding this odd sized angle. Folks call it architectural angle. What has everyone else done? Use 2024? Cut down some 6061? Source?  

    

   

    

Kevin Bonds  

    

Nashville TN  

    

601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.  

    

Empennage done; working on wings and engine.  

    

http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

Kevin Bonds

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Nashville, Tn

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: Another Scrap-builder Question.

Yeah itâ€™s â€œextrudedâ€ but the â€œarchitecturalâ€ refers to it being different lengths on each side.  

     

Kevin Bonds  

Nashville TN  

601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.  

Empennage done; working on wings and engine.  

http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds  

   

do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE   

     

   

    

   

  

        

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe

 Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:05 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Another Scrap-builder Question.  

  

   

Kevin,  

   

That is â€œextrudedâ€ angle. I am on the West Coast and bought it at a local supplier, but had to buy 1 Â½ x 1 Â½.  Iâ€™ll cut to suitâ€¦  

   

Gary Boothe  

Cool, CA  

601 HDSTD, WW Conversion  

Tail done, working on wings....  

         

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom and Bren Henderson  

  

   

   Your best bet is to pick up some 1-1/2 X 1-1/2 X .125 6061-T6 and cut it down.  You can pick it up from Aircraft Spruce or McMaster.com for a good price.

 

 

 

 kevinbonds <kevinbonds(at)comcast.net> wrote:    

                 <![endif]-->                 Clean      Clean      DocumentEmail                  false      false      false                                MicrosoftInternetExplorer4      <![endif]-->        <![endif]-->I ordered what I thought was 6061-T6 1x1-1/2x1/8. Turns out it is 2024-T3. IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m having a hard time finding this odd sized angle. Folks call it architectural angle. What has everyone else done? Use 2024? Cut down some 6061? Source?  

    

   

    

Kevin Bonds  

    

Nashville TN  

    

601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.  

    

Empennage done; working on wings and engine.  

    

http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

_________________
KevinBonds
Nashville, TN
Plans-building Zenith CH601XL w/Corvair Power
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:06 am Post subject: Another Scrap-builder Question.

Kevin,

I remember setting beside my power bandsaw cutting 1-1/2 x 1-1/2 x 1/8 

inch angle lengthwise to reduce one side to 1-inch.

Took a while, but very doable. I put masking tape on the slide surface 

of the saw, ink marked the inch dimension full length and cut

outside the mark or just touching it. Then I put a disk sander on the 

edge to bring it perfectly into the ink mark, smoothed the edge and

broke the corners with a file. Aircraft Spruce has the above in 6061 T6 

at $1.81 a foot if you need it. Don't use 2024-T3!

Good luck,



Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

kevinbonds wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I ordered what I thought was 6061-T6 1x1-1/2x1/8. Turns out it is 

 2024-T3. I’m having a hard time finding this odd sized angle. Folks 

 call it architectural angle. What has everyone else done? Use 2024? 

 Cut down some 6061? Source?



 Kevin Bonds



 Nashville TN



 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.



 Empennage done; working on wings and engine.



 http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds 

 <http://home.comcast.net/%7Ekevinbonds>

rbutterfield(at)mebtel.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:42 am Post subject: Another Scrap-builder Question.

kevinbonds wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Yeah itâ€™s â€œextrudedâ€ but the â€œarchitecturalâ€ refers to it being different lengths on each side.


	


NO!



Sorry for shouting, but this wouldn't be so critical if "architectural" 

weren't usually 6063 which is HALF AS STRONG as 6061, which is itself 

slightly less strong than 2024.



Architectural refers to the metal's intended environment, and the alloy 

chosen to optimize it's service life in that environment.



For an example, go to http://onlinemetals.com/ and follow the links to 

"aluminum angle" then compare 6061 with 6063.



6061 is often referred to as "aircraft" grade even though it is often 

used for other things. 6063 is usually what you get when you order 

"architectural" grade; the alloy is optimized for corrosion resistance, 

not strength.



Please note the rounded edges and internal corner of the 6061 as 

compared to the absolutely square edges of the 6063. This makes an easy 

visual identification of extrusions designed for strength (rounded) or 

appearance (square).



-- 

Regards,

RonB

bjohnson(at)satx.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:24 am Post subject: Another Scrap-builder Question.

Don’t forget candle wax!  



When cutting aluminum with my bandsaw, especially with long cuts, I turn the

saw on then lub the blade with any old candle that happens to be laying

around.  On long cuts, I also rub the candle along the cut line for a bit

extra lub... Makes a bandsaw cut 6061 like butta....



-Bruce



[quote] --

nfivesl(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:43 am Post subject: Another Scrap-builder Question.

Larry and Kevin:



Another way to do this is to use a table saw and a

piece of wood.  Aircraft Spruce ships tubing and

hinges strapped to 1X2" strips of wood.  You can press

the angle tightly against a piece of this wood and run

it through your table saw using the guide fence and

get a nice, clean cut to reduce one of the sides of

the angle.  If you are brave you can cut it without

the wood but it's more scary.  Same results.  Be sure

to use pushing blocks and keep your fingers away from

the blade.  This way you get a really straight edge. 

I use this same wood-block method when cross-cutting

aluminum angle with my power miter saw. 



Scott Laughlin

www.cooknwithgas.com



--- LarryMcFarland <larry(at)macsmachine.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Kevin,

 I remember setting beside my power bandsaw cutting

 1-1/2 x 1-1/2 x 1/8 inch angle lengthwise 


	


__________________________________________________

Kevin Bonds

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Nashville, Tn

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:53 am Post subject: Another Scrap-builder Question.

I get ya Ron. My mistake. My original post said Folks call it

"architectural". I asked a guy at a metal supplier for 6061 in that size, He

said "No, we don't carry any of that "architectural" or odd shaped stuff,

all of our angles are the same dimensions on both sides". Because of this, I

have come to think of it that way, because they don't seem to make anything

less than "square"--for lack of a better term--in 6061-T6. I can see how

this could cause a misunderstanding. And how I confused it in my own head

(hate it when that happens) But don't worry, I would never use 6063 on my

plane. I do know the difference. 



My original post was about using 2024-T3 in place of 6061-T6 for this angle

(for seat belt attachment, rudder pedal bearing, etc...). Some say no. What

say you? (and yes, sometimes I listen to Bill O'reily at the shop)



Kevin Bonds



Nashville TN



601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.



Empennage done; working on wings and engine.



http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds



 



do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE 



 



--

_________________
KevinBonds
Nashville, TN
Plans-building Zenith CH601XL w/Corvair Power
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:26 pm Post subject: Another Scrap-builder Question.

Send an e-mail to ZAC and ask, I suspect 2024-T3 will work just fine.  

You may have to pay a little more attention to corrosion control. As  

I understand it, 2024 is stronger than 6061 but less corrosion  

resistant. Some of the working properties are different as well.



On Jul 17, 2006, at 3:50 PM, kevinbonds wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <kevinbonds(at)comcast.net>



 I get ya Ron. My mistake. My original post said Folks call it

 "architectural". I asked a guy at a metal supplier for 6061 in that  

 size, He

 said "No, we don't carry any of that "architectural" or odd shaped  

 stuff,

 all of our angles are the same dimensions on both sides". Because  

 of this, I

 have come to think of it that way, because they don't seem to make  

 anything

 less than "square"--for lack of a better term--in 6061-T6. I can  

 see how

 this could cause a misunderstanding. And how I confused it in my  

 own head

 (hate it when that happens) But don't worry, I would never use 6063  

 on my

 plane. I do know the difference.



 My original post was about using 2024-T3 in place of 6061-T6 for  

 this angle

 (for seat belt attachment, rudder pedal bearing, etc...). Some say  

 no. What

 say you? (and yes, sometimes I listen to Bill O'reily at the shop)



 Kevin Bonds



 Nashville TN



 601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.



 Empennage done; working on wings and engine.



 http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds




	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

gboothe(at)calply.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:26 pm Post subject: Another Scrap-builder Question.

Ron,



You may have saved my bacon!! I bought what I thought was 6061 from a local

supplier, but it definitely has the square edges and square inside corner.

And this was the extrusions for my gear (TD)!!



Thanks for the heads-up!

Gary Boothe

Cool, CA

601 HDSTD, WW Conversion

Tail done, working on wings....

For an example, go to http://onlinemetals.com/ and follow the links to 

"aluminum angle" then compare 6061 with 6063.



Please note the rounded edges and internal corner of the 6061 as 

compared to the absolutely square edges of the 6063. This makes an easy 

visual identification of extrusions designed for strength (rounded) or 

appearance (square).



-- 

Regards,

RonB

rbutterfield(at)mebtel.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:38 pm Post subject: Another Scrap-builder Question.

I only know enough to be dangerous, so take this for what it's worth 



The best I can tell, 2024 is slightly stronger than 6061, as well as 

slightly more susceptible to corrosion.



For the words of someone smarter than me, go to:

http://www.zenithair.com//misc/pr-7-kp.htm

and scroll down to the subheading "How It's Built":



"Structurally, the CH 701 is built almost entirely of 

corrosion-resistant 6061-T6 aluminum, which normally requires no zinc 

chromating for preservation. The more common 2024-T3 is slightly 

stronger but would not have the same enduring qualities in its 

unprotected state. "

kevinbonds wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 My original post was about using 2024-T3 in place of 6061-T6 for this angle

 (for seat belt attachment, rudder pedal bearing, etc...). Some say no. What

 say you? (and yes, sometimes I listen to Bill O'reily at the shop)


	


-- 

Regards,

RonB

nfivesl(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:14 pm Post subject: Another Scrap-builder Question.

FYI guys, the ZAC supplied angles from my rudder

workshop were absolutely square.  I have purchased

other 6061-T6 extrusions from Aircraft Spruce that

were square. 



Scott Laughlin 



--- Gary Boothe <gboothe(at)calply.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <gboothe(at)calply.com>

 

 Ron,

 

 You may have saved my bacon!! I bought what I

 thought was 6061 from a local

 supplier, but it definitely has the square edges and

 square inside corner.


	


__________________________________________________

gboothe(at)calply.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:35 pm Post subject: Another Scrap-builder Question.

OK....now what? Anyone got any ideas on how to ID 6061 extruded vs. 6063

extruded?



Gary



FYI guys, the ZAC supplied angles from my rudder

workshop were absolutely square.  I have purchased

other 6061-T6 extrusions from Aircraft Spruce that

were square. 



Scott Laughlin 



--- Gary Boothe <gboothe(at)calply.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <gboothe(at)calply.com>

 

 Ron,

 

 You may have saved my bacon!! I bought what I

 thought was 6061 from a local

 supplier, but it definitely has the square edges and

 square inside corner.


	


__________________________________________________

Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:58 pm Post subject: Another Scrap-builder Question.

Gary, The shape of an angle has nothing to do with its metallic properties.  Architectural supply companies have aluminum angles that have rounded toes and roots (just like a rolled steel angle) or with square edges and root (called square root angles).  All of the extruded aluminum angles supplied by ZAC have square edges and roots.

 

 Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage, stalled waiting for MORE clecoes!

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:23 pm Post subject: Another Scrap-builder Question.

    I must have spent half a day on  line trying to find the spar cap extrusion before contacting Larry Mac.  Duhh!               

     1. Extrusions of the same alloy  can come with either rounded or square edges.

     2. Definitely swipe one of those  candles on your dining room table that have never been lit and put it to  use.

     3. If you can rig up a little  "Splitter" to go down the kerf line to keep the sides from buckling in, you  won't have to muscle your band saw blade back on the rollers every 5  minutes.

 Bill Naumuk

40%HDS being relocated to new shop

Townville, Pa

 [quote]   ---

jhstarn(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject: Another Scrap-builder Question.

Just a comment. We use both 2024 & 6063 at the hanger.

We use the 2024 for the airplane (HRII N561FS) and 6063 for the jr.&  high 

school riveting classes we hold. We cut the 6063 in 3" pieces, drill three 

holes in it and attach  a .032 plate with three types of rivets & let the 

kids take them home. One "pop" rivet, one round head & a flush type. The 

students re-drill (battery, cord & air types), debur, counter sink, dimple 

and set rivets with a manual "pop" rivet gun, a hand squeezer, a C frame 

with rubber mallet & an air hammer with bucking bar.

We use the best materials required for the intended application. The 6063 

without the interior web radius is easier to clamp securely to the safety 

2X4's.

After 30 years as a plumbing contractor I use "L" & "K" type copper for 

pressure air, water lines etc. and type "M" for non-pressure lines, drain 

lines & wind chimes. "The best materials required for the intended 

application". The "best" use for type M copper (the one with the red 

printing) is for wind chimes.

In my not so humble opinion type "M" copper & 6063 angle are best suited for 

applications there they support nothing, contain nothing & are cut into 

small pieces. KABONG   Do Not Archive



---

gboothe(at)calply.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject: Another Scrap-builder Question.

Jay,  

   

Thanks for that, but as you follow the string there were two conflicting pieces of info. One lister said that you could ID the angle based on shape, the other lister said NO. Now I have un-identifiable angle and, short of buying new, don’t know if there is a way to ID the 6061.  

   

Gary Boothe  

Cool, CA  

601 HDSTD, WW Conversion  

Tail done, working on wings....  

   

         

  

  

   

Gary, The shape of an angle has nothing to do with its metallic properties.  Architectural supply companies have aluminum angles that have rounded toes and roots (just like a rolled steel angle) or with square edges and root (called square root angles).  All of the extruded aluminum angles supplied by ZAC have square edges and roots.

 

 Jay in Dallas, working on XL fuselage, stalled waiting for MORE clecoes!

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:54 pm Post subject: Another Scrap-builder Question.

OK I don't know if this will help but...... I watched a TV show once where  they were showing how they identify aluminum at a recycling plant and they had a  hand held gadget that they would put against the aluminum and it would tell them  what it was by identifying it's properties. So you might try calling your  recycler and taking small pieces to them to identify.

  

  

 Jeff

n4546v(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:30 pm Post subject: Another Scrap-builder Question.

I don't have a camera here at the plant, but I do have Ryerson steel's data

book.  From the Aluminum structural shapes section:



American Standard:  Similar in cross section to rolled steel angles,

channels and beams - with traditional tapered flanges, rounded ends.



Sharp Corner:  Flanges and webs are uniformly thick and all corners are

sharp, with nearly invisible radii.



but ONLY on the inside.  There is also a filet where the two legs join.  If

you put a square on the OUTSIDE of the angle, it is Square,  if you put a

square on the inside, you cannot bottom the square because of the filet, and

the legs are tapered.



The sharp corner shape has no taper, no filet on the inside (ok, it's not a

perfect sharp corner) you can put a square on the outside or the inside and

it will measure square.  There is no taper of the flanges or legs.



When you go to select the size and alloy, 6061-T6 is only readily available

in the "American Standard" shape.



If you switch to the "Sharp Corner" shape, it is not listed in 6061-T6 but

is available in 6063-T52.



Ryerson does not mention the word: "Architectural" but my "Speedy Metals"

book mentions "Architectural" ONLY under the "Sharp Corner" 6063-T52 angle.



When you go to Home Depot, they usually have the sharp corner version and it

is usually marked "architectural"  It is made for attaching awnings to your

RV, not building wing spars.



not available as stock items.  Anyone can have them made, but the minimum

run would probably be 1000 lbs plus.  ZA does this as they are constantly

selling their sizes.  So in the case of the 3/4 x 3/4 x .093, you buy that

size but in the .125 thickness and you order some longer rivets.  In the

case of the 1 1/2 x 1 x .125 (is that right?) you will have to buy 1 1/2 x 1

1/2 angle and cut one leg down as instructed by Larry Mac and the other

Builders.  As Builders have stated, you can't find the ZA sizes as stock

items.  So order from ZA or get out the saw, set the fench, steal the

candles and start cutting!



Regards,



Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas

 	  Quote: 	
		   FYI guys, the ZAC supplied angles from my rudder

 workshop were absolutely square.  I have purchased

 other 6061-T6 extrusions from Aircraft Spruce that

 were square.



 Scott Laughlin

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