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Anti-Aviation bill in Florida - Local Solution?

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pcowper(at)webtv.net (Pet
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:21 am Post subject: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida - Local Solution?

 	  Quote: 	
		  "I also believe that two judges orders confirm that I was not doing

anything wrong,"
	




Brian's posts show that he appears to be a rather calm and level-headed

person, and some third parties who have met him confirm this.



For the city council to legislate in favor of the sole whining neighbor

seems suspect, the whole story may show that Brian has been caught up in

a citywide problem.



I trust the list understands that my comment about the pole tent

workshop was tongue-in-cheek and intended to illustrate the need to

listen to both sides of the issue before jumping to conclusions. Having

been a lawyer in California for almost 20 years in both criminal

prosecution and defense as well as a civil litigation practice the past

15 years . . . I am always hesitant to determine the merits of a case

based on hearing only one side of the story.  Whether it is from the

police department when I was a Deputy District Attorney or a client

sitting across my desk attempting to sell me on the strength of their

case as I am setting the retainer for the potential lengthy litigation

that I am being assured will be put to rest with only one letter on my

letterhead.



Based on Brian's comment about two prior successful defenses in a true

courtroom against this lady, she may have pulled a fast one by going to

the city council instead of the courts.  In California, a person who

files multiple lawsuits without prevailing can be ruled a "vexatious

litigant" by the court, on the court's own motion, after a hearing.

This vexatious litigant must then present any further complaints

(lawsuits) to the presiding judge who reviews the claim to determine

whether it can be filed. There are a few California litigants in

wheelchairs suing multiple small businesses under the ADA handicapped

access rules who have been so labelled over the past year.  Perhaps this

possibly shrewd lady was aware of this potential and sought another

jurisdiction with the city council.  If she brings the identical claim

in court it can be dismissed under "res judicata" as the same litigated

claim cannot be relitigated after a determination has been issued by

judge or jury. She has now secured a new law from the city. Seems to be

a clever lady on a quest, unfortunately for her poor neighbor Brain.



The suggestion that Brian get other local homebuilders and his neighbors

to support his low neighborhood impact hobby is a good way to present

his individual situation to to city council in hopes of getting a

modification to the ordinance exempting his situation from who knows

what other home hobbies the city is really intending to control (garage

meth labs are popular here near Fresno, California). Seeking a

determination from the city council in a positive manner about what

parts of his aircraft homebuilding were objectionable, to which he can

agree to control or eliminate, may allow him to continue his hobby with

those restrictions. In dealing with government forums or any committee,

present them with an answer rather than just a question and they will

often readily agree with the solution so they can get on to other

business.



The city council might welcome being able to pare Brian out of the city

ordinance just to whiz off the whining neighbor lady who is no doubt a

gadfly thorn-in-their-side.  To their possible irritation, she is no

doubt trumpeting her "victory" with the new law that she may only have

been a minor part in creating.



Get the whole story and you are then prepared to work towards a

solution.



Usual caveats - not a Florida lawyer, seek own counsel . . . etc. 



Pete Cowper

RV-8 #81139

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ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:32 pm Post subject: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida - Local Solution?

Pete Cowper wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

>"I also believe that two judges orders confirm that I was not doing

>    

>

anything wrong,"

Brian's posts show that he appears to be a rather calm and level-headed

person, and some third parties who have met him confirm this.

For the city council to legislate in favor of the sole whining neighbor

seems suspect, the whole story may show that Brian has been caught up in

a citywide problem.

I trust the list understands that my comment about the pole tent

workshop was tongue-in-cheek and intended to illustrate the need to

listen to both sides of the issue before jumping to conclusions. Having

been a lawyer in California for almost 20 years in both criminal

prosecution and defense as well as a civil litigation practice the past

15 years . . . I am always hesitant to determine the merits of a case

based on hearing only one side of the story.  Whether it is from the

 >snipped

 	  Quote: 	

Pete Cowper

RV-8 #81139

It seems to me that discussing this as a 'case' misses the point entirely.

If this was a 'case', it would have been dealt with as a 'case' (Brian 

has apparently already dealt with the 'case').

This city (which happens to be an entire county) has legislated that 

*all* its citizens cannot exercise their constitutional rights in two 

areas. No restrictions were placed on hobbies like antique tractor 

restoration, which in every way could be just as dangerous and/or 

irritating to neighbors.

Strategy & tactics used to respond can be debated, but there is no doubt 

in my mind that this blatantly unconstitutional, like most of the laws 

restricting conduct in the last 30-40 years.  (Why do we allow the FAA 

to call our right to fly a 'privilege'? Is my right to vote a 

'privilege' just because I can lose it if I'm convicted of a felony?)

Charlie

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brian.kraut(at)engalt.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:00 pm Post subject: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida - Local Solution?

It is very much a "case" and will have its day in court.  I could move the

plane to the airport or a mini storage and not go to court, but this needs

to be fought.  I will not run with my tail between my legs.



I really appreciate everyone's support and suggestions.  I wish I could

respond to the hundreds of emails I get, but that would be a full time job.



I have been keeping a little quiet on all the little details, the

information I have been gathering on the ordinance and how it passed, and

the legal strategy for getting this ordinance changed.  This will go to

court and I can't spill all the beans now.



Brian Kraut

www.jaxairplane.com



--

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ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:26 am Post subject: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida - Local Solution?

I'm on your side; my point is that when the city decided to pass a 

discriminatory ordinance, it became much more than a 'case'. We are all 

affected.



Even if you were the world's worst jerk, riveting at 3:00 AM & spraying 

dangerous chemicals into your neighbor's windows, it still would  not 

justify passing the law they passed.



Charlie



Brian Kraut wrote:



[quote]



It is very much a "case" and will have its day in court.  I could move the

plane to the airport or a mini storage and not go to court, but this needs

to be fought.  I will not run with my tail between my legs.



I really appreciate everyone's support and suggestions.  I wish I could

respond to the hundreds of emails I get, but that would be a full time job.



I have been keeping a little quiet on all the little details, the

information I have been gathering on the ordinance and how it passed, and

the legal strategy for getting this ordinance changed.  This will go to

court and I can't spill all the beans now.



Brian Kraut

www.jaxairplane.com



--

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cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:58 am Post subject: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida - Local Solution?

I have no opinion on the merits of Mr. Kraut situation and

circumstances.  Certainly, his postings seem reasonable and reasoned.

If one is to draw a conclusion from this 'managed' information, it would

certainly seem that the ordinance is 'mosquito hunting with an elephant

gun.'

What concerns me the most is the near instantaneous laying claim to

'constitutional rights' (not necessarily by Mr. Kraut, but certainly

many others). First of all, most that make such claims 1) have never

read the constitution, and 2) wouldn't know how to apply it to define

one's rights anyhow.  This whole process of asserting constitutional

rights culminates in 8th graders running around and telling their

teachers and Principals to shove-it because 'they know their rights'.

What I hear far less frequently, but interests me a great more, is what

are our 'responsibilities' as citizens, not just our rights.  Societal

needs may not trump 'rights' but the exercise of innumerable personal

rights (real and imagined) is often corrosive to our social fabric and

quality of life.  To mute exercise of our rights and our personal

behavior is sometimes referred to as the go-along, get-along philosophy.

In Kraut's immediate case, multiple parties are not going-along and

certainly not getting-along; the result of which is a nasty,

over-reaching ordinance and consternation on the part of many

(potentially) affected parties---all because somebody probably decided

to assert their 'rights' instead of their responsibilities.  

So, let's go forward a bit more gently--we will all find life more

comfortable and pleasant by doing so.  Oh, by the way; do as I say, not

as I do.

Chuck

Do Not Archive

[quote] 

 <ceengland(at)bellsouth.net>

 I'm on your side; my point is that when the city decided to pass a 

 discriminatory ordinance, it became much more than a 'case'. 

 We are all 

 affected.

 Even if you were the world's worst jerk, riveting at 3:00 AM 

 & spraying 

 dangerous chemicals into your neighbor's windows, it still would  not 

 justify passing the law they passed.

 Charlie

 Brian Kraut wrote:

 >

 >

 >It is very much a "case" and will have its day in court.  I 

 could move 

 >the plane to the airport or a mini storage and not go to court, but 

 >this needs to be fought.  I will not run with my tail 

 between my legs.

 >

 >I really appreciate everyone's support and suggestions.  I 

 wish I could 

 >respond to the hundreds of emails I get, but that would be a 

 full time 

 >job.

 >

 >I have been keeping a little quiet on all the little details, the 

 >information I have been gathering on the ordinance and how 

 it passed, 

 >and the legal strategy for getting this ordinance changed.  

 This will 

 >go to court and I can't spill all the beans now.

 >

 >Brian Kraut

 >www.jaxairplane.com

 >

 >--

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brian.kraut(at)engalt.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:10 am Post subject: Anti-Aviation bill in Florida - Local Solution?

Good observations.  That is the part some people don't understand.  If I was

causing a tremendous nuisance with noise, dangerous conditions, trash and

parts everywhere (which I am not) they would be giving me fines for those

things.  Those laws already exist here and it would be very easy for them to

fine me on those things and make them stick.  I have not gotten a single

citation or warning for any of those things because they are not happening.



Brian Kraut

Engineering Alternatives, Inc.

www.engalt.com



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