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ericmpmail-rv10(at)yahoo.
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 Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:50 pm Post subject: Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12 |
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All,
Took a look around. Here is my summary, I have pics
too - but didn't bring the USB cable for the camera.
Subaru:
Eggenfellner is supposed to give a talk about RV-10
suburu engines on Friday. I will report back what I
learn from it. His booth was empty when I went by and
looked like an older installed engine on display.
Deltahawk:
Had a big presence with 2 engines on static display
and the velocity install. Claim is 180 HP version
putting out ~ 195 hp. Suggested 200 HP model might not
be needed for RV-10 since turbo normalized. BSFC ~
0.38 [Very good]. business manager brought on board
and comment that they regretted making statements of
"soon to market" as it has obviously taken them
longer. no formal discusions with Van's - comment that
business relationship between Van's and lycoming is
tight. 200 HP version last to come out. Needs bigger
intercooler and even bigger turbo's. Some delivery
slots in 2006 (all filled). Engines shipped so far are
to beta partners (who don't seem to be talking). This
was the best alternative engine that I saw at Oshkosh.
note: Needs a 28V system for starter, suggestion is
putting two batteries in series for starter, then dual
bat for normal operation. Needed to rotate the engine
fast enough to turn the blower fast enough to give 2
psi boost in intake for starting. 12 V won't cut it.
Mistral:
Two engines on display, a 2 rotor and a 3 rotor. Not
impressed with staff, they essentially kicked me out
when I started asking about intermediate housing
availability since Mazda is no longer making it.
End housings looked nice, as well as reduction drive.
Took a quick look at the exhaust system before they
stuffed it under the table and would not let me see
it. It is a stainless with a continuous outer shell
(like a heat muff). Rotaries are notorious for hot
exhausts....
Claimed there are no Mazda parts, but looking at the
engines on display they are using stock Mazda housings
(and likely rotors). They had set up the oil delivery
system to put oil into the cylinders per stock +
replaced upper housing fuel injectors with oil ports.
This seemed unusual as this would drip into the side
housings and not the combustion chambers.
Would not comment on diesel system [to me]. rotaries
have limitations on compression greater than ~ 9 or
10:1 so likely spark assisted diesel. Efficiency of
this is not as great as compression ignition but
better than gas. BSFC for gas is roughly ~ 0.45.
Company rubbed me the wrong way and I would not deal
with them personally. Your mileage may vary....
Innodyn:
Innodyn had an engine on static display affiliated
with Turbine Cub (?). Looked great. BSFC claims still
as crazy as before (Better than GE, Williams, Pratt
and RR). Dyno data "right around the corner", just as
it has been for the last 3 years....
Twinpack not a current focus.
Rolls Royce 250-B17F turbo shaft:
Weight 205 lbs, Takeoff power 450 HP. 75% cruise 314
HP at a BSFC of 0.673 = 30 gals per hr. Idles at 10
Gals per hr. Better get those tip tanks! Length is 45"
(at least 3 inchs two long). Cost? Well, if you have
to ask then you can't afford it! I didn't, but I think
it is closer to 100k (or more) than 10 k.
ECi-540:
didn't talk to them here this engine but at Arlington
they said sometime next year. I mentioned all the
potential customers they are missing. Price will be
less than lycoming and I have heard low to mid 30's.
Superior diesel:
Lot's of engines on display. Size, weight and HP not a
good match for the RV-10. Looks great on the Diamond
Twinstar. (135 HP per side).
SMA:
didn't take a good look. As I recall they want 50K +
for the Cessna 182. Seemed to be focusing on europe
market (where diesel is a bigger advantage)
E85 Ethanol:
Nutty display by the corn lobby. Didn't get any real
info. But I hear 10% ethanol is ok for cured proseal
but I wonder about 85%... Vapor lock is big issue too.
Need a ratio of 9:1 vs 14:1 for gas. Less energy per
lb too so you are going to burn up more.. tip tanks?
RV-12:
Lot's of grass stomped around the plane. Wings
attached and fuselage, tail largely complete. Engine
mounted and hidden under a quck and dirty cowl layup.
Say final will be pre-preg. Hand brakes. Comment from
Van's that you should try them before you knock them.
Their comment that footbrakes might add 500.
I think it will sell well, looks better in person than
their sketches online. Claim sales late 2007 and
judging from progress so far I think it is realistic.
Apparently they would also be doing quickbuild kits.
"slowbuild" whole plane = RV10 tail kit. No match
drilling either, holes puched final size.
RV-10 (alex D): Took a peak at A/C install. Looks like
they are using a P-51 style scoop under the fuselage
for condenser cooling. Looks like it might pull in a
fair amount of exhaust gas and oil vapor in it's
current position. Plane looks great overall.
Garmin 900X:
If you have 67k buring a hole in your pocket and want
a Garmin 1000 for the experimental market then they
have the product for you. Looked fantastic. You could
add weather for only an additional 5k. Pointed out
that they should start working with Van's or builders
now on an install package. From the RV-7 mock up it
looks like you would have to cut in half all three
firewall to panel ribs. I also mentioned that they are
more likely to sell into the RV-10 market than RV-7.
Hope you enjoyed the summary. My take is if you are
doing a custom install then go with a rotary engine
and buy the additional parts needed from Tracy and
conversion concepts (mount). If you want to buy a
complete engine, can wait until ~ late 07 (or 0 and
want something different then I would pick deltahawk.
If you want to be flying by next Oshkosh, pick a
lycoming or clone 
If I learn anything from Eggenfellner talk I will pass
it on. David Atkins gave a talk this morning about
rotary engine conversions but I was unable to attend.
Tracy Crook rumored to be heading up - perhaps Friday.
Eric
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EFDsteve(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:13 pm Post subject: Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12 |
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Eric,
I'd like to add one more to your list, the Franklin is making a reappearance at Oshkosh, just west of the Cleaveland Tools tent, north of hangar C. They are bringing back their 220 hp, 6-cylinder 6A-350, made in Poland and certified! Seems to me to be a better and more affordable alternative than the Continental used by Vans in their proof of kit plane, and from what I've read about it, it seems to have a good reputation as being smooth and generally bullet proof. The brochure is available at www.franklin-engines.com
Steve Weinstock
40230
In a message dated 7/27/2006 9:53:17 P.M. Central Standard Time, ericmpmail-rv10(at)yahoo.com writes:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Eric Panning <ericmpmail-rv10(at)yahoo.com>
All,
Took a look around. Here is my summary, I have pics
too - but didn't bring the USB cable for the camera.
Subaru:
Eggenfellner is supposed to give a talk about RV-10
suburu engines on Friday. I will report back what I
learn from it. His booth was empty when I went by and
looked like an older installed engine on display.
Deltahawk:
Had a big presence with 2 engines on static display
and the velocity install. Claim is 180 HP version
putting out ~ 195 hp. Suggested 200 HP model might not
be needed for RV-10 since turbo normalized. BSFC ~
0.38 [Very good]. business manager brought on board
and comment that they regretted making statements of
"soon to market" as it has obviously taken them
longer. no formal discusions with Van's - comment that
business relationship between Van's and lycoming is
tight. 200 HP version last to come out. Needs bigger
intercooler and even bigger turbo's. Some delivery
slots in 2006 (all filled). Engines shipped so far are
to beta partners (who don't seem to be talking). This
was the best alternative engine that I saw at Oshkosh.
note: Needs a 28V system for starter, suggestion is
putting two batteries in series for starter, then dual
bat for normal operation. Needed to rotate the engine
fast enough to turn the blower fast enough to give 2
psi boost in intake for starting. 12 V won't cut it.
Mistral:
Two engines on display, a 2 rotor and a 3 rotor. Not
impressed with staff, they essentially kicked me out
when I started asking about intermediate housing
availability since Mazda is no longer making it.
End housings looked nice, as well as reduction drive.
Took a quick look at the exhaust system before they
stuffed it under the table and would not let me see
it. It is a stainless with a continuous outer shell
(like a heat muff). Rotaries are notorious for hot
exhausts....
Claimed there are no Mazda parts, but looking at the
engines on display they are using stock Mazda housings
(and likely rotors). They had set up the oil delivery
system to put oil into the cylinders per stock +
replaced upper housing fuel injectors with oil ports.
This seemed unusual as this would drip into the side
housings and not the combustion chambers.
Would not comment on diesel system [to me]. rotaries
have limitations on compression greater than ~ 9 or
10:1 so likely spark assisted diesel. Efficiency of
this is not as great as compression ignition but
better than gas. BSFC for gas is roughly ~ 0.45.
Company rubbed me the wrong way and I would not deal
with them personally. Your mileage may vary....
Innodyn:
Innodyn had an engine on static display affiliated
with Turbine Cub (?). Looked great. BSFC claims still
as crazy as before (Better than GE, Williams, Pratt
and RR). Dyno data "right around the corner", just as
it has been for the last 3 years....
Twinpack not a current focus.
Rolls Royce 250-B17F turbo shaft:
Weight 205 lbs, Takeoff power 450 HP. 75% cruise 314
HP at a BSFC of 0.673 = 30 gals per hr. Idles at 10
Gals per hr. Better get those tip tanks! Length is 45"
(at least 3 inchs two long). Cost? Well, if you have
to ask then you can't afford it! I didn't, but I think
it is closer to 100k (or more) than 10 k.
ECi-540:
didn't talk to them here this engine but at Arlington
they said sometime next year. I mentioned all the
potential customers they are missing. Price will be
less than lycoming and I have heard low to mid 30's.
Superior diesel:
Lot's of engines on display. Size, weight and HP not a
good match for the RV-10. Looks great on the Diamond
Twinstar. (135 HP per side).
SMA:
didn't take a good look. As I recall they want 50K +
for the Cessna 182. Seemed to be focusing on europe
market (where diesel is a bigger advantage)
E85 Ethanol:
Nutty display by the corn lobby. Didn't get any real
info. But I hear 10% ethanol is ok for cured proseal
but I wonder about 85%... Vapor lock is big issue too.
Need a ratio of 9:1 vs 14:1 for gas. Less energy per
lb too so you are going to burn up more.. tip tanks?
RV-12:
Lot's of grass stomped around the plane. Wings
attached and fuselage, tail largely complete. Engine
mounted and hidden under a quck and dirty cowl layup.
Say final will be pre-preg. Hand brakes. Comment from
Van's that you should try them before you knock them.
Their comment that footbrakes might add 500.
I think it will sell well, looks better in person than
their sketches online. Claim sales late 2007 and
judging from progress so far I think it is realistic.
Apparently they would also be doing quickbuild kits.
"slowbuild" whole plane = RV10 tail kit. No match
drilling either, holes puched final size.
RV-10 (alex D): Took a peak at A/C install. Looks like
they are using a P-51 style scoop under the fuselage
for condenser cooling. Looks like it might pull in a
fair amount of exhaust gas and oil vapor in it's
current position. Plane looks great overall.
Garmin 900X:
If you have 67k buring a hole in your pocket and want
a Garmin 1000 for the experimental market then they
have the product for you. Looked fantastic. You could
add weather for only an additional 5k. Pointed out
that they should start working with Van's or builders
now on an install package. From the RV-7 mock up it
looks like you would have to cut in half all three
firewall to panel ribs. I also mentioned that they are
more likely to sell into the RV-10 market than RV-7.
Hope you enjoyed the summary. My take is if you are
doing a custom install then go with a rotary engine
and buy the additional parts needed from Tracy and
conversion concepts (mount). If you want to buy a
complete engine, can wait until ~ late 07 (or 0 and
want something different then I would pick deltahawk.
If you want to be flying by next Oshkosh, pick a
lycoming or clone
If I learn anything from Eggenfellner talk I will pass
it on. David Atkins gave a talk this morning about
rotary engine conversions but I was unable to attend.
Tracy Crook rumored to be heading up - perhaps Friday.
Eric
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
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Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:48 am Post subject: Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12 |
|
|
Thanks for the update Eric,
Is Hartzell making any noise about their new composite 3-blade prop? It
is supposedly 12 lbs lighter than their metal 3-blade
Jack Phillips
#40610
--
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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Tdawson(at)avidyne.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:55 am Post subject: Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12 |
|
|
Anyone check out "V aircraft engines"? (a.k.a. ROTAX water cooled)
TDT
do not archive
--
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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jjessen
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:50 am Post subject: Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12 |
|
|
So, Tim. Garmin 900 and 600, the former for the X crowd. Ah, now, ah, I've
been told that "patience, you must have," but now am thinking aloud, ever so
quietly, "pony up, you must do." Where's the Entegra equivalent? Will it
be put on display in your test bed? Is this the plan?
John J
ever dreaming
--
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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Tdawson(at)avidyne.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:04 am Post subject: Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12 |
|
|
Some decisions are above my pay grade . . .
FWIW, my airplane is MY project, not the company's, so it's not really a
testbed in that sense . . .
TDT
40025
do not archive
--
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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KiloPapa
Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 142
Location: Pearblossom, CA
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:30 pm Post subject: Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12 |
|
|
Very nice report. Thank you for taking the time.
Kevin
40494
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 7:49 PM
| Quote: | RV10-List message posted by: Eric Panning <ericmpmail-rv10(at)yahoo.com>
All,
Took a look around. Here is my summary, I have pics
too - but didn't bring the USB cable for the camera.
Subaru:
Eggenfellner is supposed to give a talk about RV-10
suburu engines on Friday. I will report back what I
learn from it. His booth was empty when I went by and
looked like an older installed engine on display.
Deltahawk:
Had a big presence with 2 engines on static display
and the velocity install. Claim is 180 HP version
putting out ~ 195 hp. Suggested 200 HP model might not
be needed for RV-10 since turbo normalized. BSFC ~
0.38 [Very good]. business manager brought on board
and comment that they regretted making statements of
"soon to market" as it has obviously taken them
longer. no formal discusions with Van's - comment that
business relationship between Van's and lycoming is
tight. 200 HP version last to come out. Needs bigger
intercooler and even bigger turbo's. Some delivery
slots in 2006 (all filled). Engines shipped so far are
to beta partners (who don't seem to be talking). This
was the best alternative engine that I saw at Oshkosh.
note: Needs a 28V system for starter, suggestion is
putting two batteries in series for starter, then dual
bat for normal operation. Needed to rotate the engine
fast enough to turn the blower fast enough to give 2
psi boost in intake for starting. 12 V won't cut it.
Mistral:
Two engines on display, a 2 rotor and a 3 rotor. Not
impressed with staff, they essentially kicked me out
when I started asking about intermediate housing
availability since Mazda is no longer making it.
End housings looked nice, as well as reduction drive.
Took a quick look at the exhaust system before they
stuffed it under the table and would not let me see
it. It is a stainless with a continuous outer shell
(like a heat muff). Rotaries are notorious for hot
exhausts....
Claimed there are no Mazda parts, but looking at the
engines on display they are using stock Mazda housings
(and likely rotors). They had set up the oil delivery
system to put oil into the cylinders per stock +
replaced upper housing fuel injectors with oil ports.
This seemed unusual as this would drip into the side
housings and not the combustion chambers.
Would not comment on diesel system [to me]. rotaries
have limitations on compression greater than ~ 9 or
10:1 so likely spark assisted diesel. Efficiency of
this is not as great as compression ignition but
better than gas. BSFC for gas is roughly ~ 0.45.
Company rubbed me the wrong way and I would not deal
with them personally. Your mileage may vary....
Innodyn:
Innodyn had an engine on static display affiliated
with Turbine Cub (?). Looked great. BSFC claims still
as crazy as before (Better than GE, Williams, Pratt
and RR). Dyno data "right around the corner", just as
it has been for the last 3 years....
Twinpack not a current focus.
Rolls Royce 250-B17F turbo shaft:
Weight 205 lbs, Takeoff power 450 HP. 75% cruise 314
HP at a BSFC of 0.673 = 30 gals per hr. Idles at 10
Gals per hr. Better get those tip tanks! Length is 45"
(at least 3 inchs two long). Cost? Well, if you have
to ask then you can't afford it! I didn't, but I think
it is closer to 100k (or more) than 10 k.
ECi-540:
didn't talk to them here this engine but at Arlington
they said sometime next year. I mentioned all the
potential customers they are missing. Price will be
less than lycoming and I have heard low to mid 30's.
Superior diesel:
Lot's of engines on display. Size, weight and HP not a
good match for the RV-10. Looks great on the Diamond
Twinstar. (135 HP per side).
SMA:
didn't take a good look. As I recall they want 50K +
for the Cessna 182. Seemed to be focusing on europe
market (where diesel is a bigger advantage)
E85 Ethanol:
Nutty display by the corn lobby. Didn't get any real
info. But I hear 10% ethanol is ok for cured proseal
but I wonder about 85%... Vapor lock is big issue too.
Need a ratio of 9:1 vs 14:1 for gas. Less energy per
lb too so you are going to burn up more.. tip tanks?
RV-12:
Lot's of grass stomped around the plane. Wings
attached and fuselage, tail largely complete. Engine
mounted and hidden under a quck and dirty cowl layup.
Say final will be pre-preg. Hand brakes. Comment from
Van's that you should try them before you knock them.
Their comment that footbrakes might add 500.
I think it will sell well, looks better in person than
their sketches online. Claim sales late 2007 and
judging from progress so far I think it is realistic.
Apparently they would also be doing quickbuild kits.
"slowbuild" whole plane = RV10 tail kit. No match
drilling either, holes puched final size.
RV-10 (alex D): Took a peak at A/C install. Looks like
they are using a P-51 style scoop under the fuselage
for condenser cooling. Looks like it might pull in a
fair amount of exhaust gas and oil vapor in it's
current position. Plane looks great overall.
Garmin 900X:
If you have 67k buring a hole in your pocket and want
a Garmin 1000 for the experimental market then they
have the product for you. Looked fantastic. You could
add weather for only an additional 5k. Pointed out
that they should start working with Van's or builders
now on an install package. From the RV-7 mock up it
looks like you would have to cut in half all three
firewall to panel ribs. I also mentioned that they are
more likely to sell into the RV-10 market than RV-7.
Hope you enjoyed the summary. My take is if you are
doing a custom install then go with a rotary engine
and buy the additional parts needed from Tracy and
conversion concepts (mount). If you want to buy a
complete engine, can wait until ~ late 07 (or 0 and
want something different then I would pick deltahawk.
If you want to be flying by next Oshkosh, pick a
lycoming or clone
If I learn anything from Eggenfellner talk I will pass
it on. David Atkins gave a talk this morning about
rotary engine conversions but I was unable to attend.
Tracy Crook rumored to be heading up - perhaps Friday.
Eric
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
_________________
Kevin
40494
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bsponcil(at)belinblank.or
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:29 pm Post subject: Oshkosh Alternative Engine Summary + 900x + RV12 |
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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