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VG's

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kinnepix(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:37 am Post subject: VG's

With all the talk about VG's I haven't heard anything about how  

they're to be lined up fore-and-aft. Any specs on this?  If they're  

straight into the wind I don't believe they'll do diddley. Look at a  

commercial jet's wings -- esp. the 727. The VG's are twisted about  

10-15 degrees. They are after all meant to create turbulence right at  

the boundary layer -- how can they do this if they're edge-onto the  

apparent wind?

Glaciers -- thanx John  for a GREAT pic of some marvellous country!  

Glaciers are soooo cool, esp. with a gravel strip at their foot. We  

did a lot of glacier flying on the Icefield Ranges in the Yukon years  

ago, in Helio Couriers, marvellous aircraft. Before I got there  

they'd lost an engine, then changed it out UP ON THE GLACIER!  Flew  

in the new engine, three long 4x4's, a chain  hoist, and went at it.  

Engine was a 540 as I recall. Not your typical maintenance --

Only real txp problem I ever had was flying over Portland ME jetport  

years ago at 3500', photographing the coast. Didn't talk to tower or  

ATC . Later talked to Brunswick NAS  (to go thru their airspace), and  

they asked me to call PTL. When I did they said my txp readout was  

1300'!! -- which must have startled them a little. I pointed out that  

while the radar room  has no windows, the tower sure does, and they  

could so easily have looked out the window and seen I was NOT at  

1300', but at 3500'. Vis  was excellent that day. Anyway, I  

apologized but pointed out that I was flying  perfectly legally, and  

have a nice day. That was the end of it. But no doubt my N-number had  

a flag on it (another??)  from then on.

Fly safe, have fun,

Russ K

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:28 am Post subject: VG's

At 09:35 AM 1/16/06 -0600, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



With all the talk about VG's I haven't heard anything about how  

they're to be lined up fore-and-aft. Any specs on this?  If they're  

straight into the wind I don't believe they'll do diddley. Look at a  

commercial jet's wings -- esp. the 727. The VG's are twisted about  

10-15 degrees. They are after all meant to create turbulence right at  

the boundary layer -- how can they do this if they're edge-onto the  

apparent wind?


	


Russ,



I developed my VG's from an old EAA Sport Aviation article.  They said 15 

degrees and that is what I used.  As I recall, they gave a height 

measurement (3/8 of an inch) but no other measurements, but they did include 

a photo in the article.  It showed a single vane VG and an old fashion lead 

pencil with the eraser end next to the VG.  By scanning in the photo and 

re-sizing the photo and comparing pencil eraser lengths, I was able 

determine the VG length. I used a trapezoidal shape the VG vane pairs 

because they will not work the fabric as hard as single vane a VG.



All I can say is that they seem to work very well.  One could make them 

taller and wider, but doing so would increase VG weight and drag.  If you 

want to maintain the same top and/or cruise speed, it is important to 

minimize VG drag. It must be less or equal to the drag reduction that occurs 

by flying the wing at a lower angle of attack due to the wings increase in 

lift capability for a given air speed.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:40 am Post subject: VG's

Russ K are you in Maine ?



Ellery in Maine 

do not archive

Possum

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 112
Location: Georgia

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: VG's

At 10:35 AM 1/16/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



With all the talk about VG's I haven't heard anything about how

they're to be lined up fore-and-aft. Any specs on this?  If they're

straight into the wind I don't believe they'll do diddley. Look at a

commercial jet's wings -- esp. the 727. The VG's are twisted about

10-15 degrees. They are after all meant to create turbulence right at

the boundary layer -- how can they do this if they're edge-onto the

apparent wind?


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

From: russ kinne <kinnepix(at)earthlink.net>




With all the talk about VG's I haven't heard anything about how

they're to be lined up fore-and-aft. Any specs on this?  If they're

straight into the wind I don't believe they'll do diddley. Look at a

commercial jet's wings -- esp. the 727. The VG's are twisted about

10-15 degrees. They are after all meant to create turbulence right at

the boundary layer -- how can they do this if they're edge-onto the

apparent wind?


	


This is from http://www.landshorter.com/index.html

Q:  How do I know where to put them on my wing and tail?



A:  Our eight page manual and complete set of computer generated 

templates give you the information you need to install and test your 

Landshorter! vortex generators.  Most likely you will end up placing 

them around the 10% chord line for your wing and spacing them at 

about 50 per wing (close to 1% of span).  If you decide to use them 

on the underside of your horizontal stabilizer to improve your flare 

then you will place them about 1 1/2" apart and just in front of the 

elevator.  In all cases the VG's are placed at a precise angle to the 

airstream and are aligned and spaced with the included templates.

What they look like on a Kolbish Aircraft

http://sos.photosite.com/Album1/

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: VG's

 	  kinnepix(at)earthlink.net wrote: 	
		   

Glaciers are soooo cool

	




Hahahah,  I dont think you will find any disagreement there

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Mark

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 5

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: VG's

I installed a set of VGs on my Twinstar.......WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!  Plane now stalls 38 power on,down from 45. Aileron control is more solid,used to have a dead spot in the middle a foot wide(or so it seemed).

  I tried these without expecting a lot,and got great results. I dont know how other Kolbs fly without them. That flat bottomed,sharp LE wing has some bad points too....the VGs seem to fix them...

_________________
Mark Shimei
Twinstar, 503
Phantom, Kawasaki 440
Weight shift Quick, Chrysler

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:10 pm Post subject: VG's

Aileron control is more solid,used to have a dead spot in the middle a 

foot wide(or so it seemed).



I dont know how other Kolbs fly without them.



That flat bottomed,sharp LE wing has some bad points too....the VGs 

seem to fix them...

|

| Mark Shimei

Hi Mark:



Please tell us about the dead spot in your ailerons and how the VG's 

improved this seemingly dangerous problem.



Somehow there are a lot more Kolbs flying without VG's than with them. 

I don't know how we fly without them.  



Would also be very nice to know what these bad point of the Kolb wing 

are, and how the VG's fixed them.  To state that a wing has bad points 

does not help us understand the problem.



john h

MKIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:39 pm Post subject: VG's

Other Kolbs fly pretty good without them. Better than most any thing 

else in it's class. But nothing made by man is perfect, and improvement 

is always possible. VG's fall into that category.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

Mark wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



I installed a set of VGs on my Twinstar.......WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!  Plane now stalls 38 power on,down from 45. Aileron control is more solid,used to have a dead spot in the middle a foot wide(or so it seemed).

  I tried these without expecting a lot,and got great results. I dont know how other Kolbs fly without them. That flat bottomed,sharp LE wing has some bad points too....the VGs seem to fix them...



--------

Mark Shimei

Twinstar, 503

Phantom, Kawasaki 440

Weight shift Quick, Chrysler





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=4542#4542

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

kinnepix(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:02 pm Post subject: VG's

Right on, bro! glaciers are cool, but comfortable. I worked at -63  

once. THAT was more than  cool.

(Shivering)

do not archive (do we still need this??)

On Jan 16, 2006, at 7:22 PM, JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 kinnepix(at)earthlink.net wrote:

>

> Glaciers are soooo cool

>

 Hahahah,  I dont think you will find any disagreement there   

 [Laughing]



 --------

 NO FEAR -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could  

 have !!!





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=4529#4529

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:08 pm Post subject: VG's

| Other Kolbs fly pretty good without them. Better than most any 

thing

| else in it's class. But nothing made by man is perfect, and 

improvement

| is always possible. VG's fall into that category.

|

| Richard Pike



Richard:



Would be very interesting to do a side by side comparison, two of same 

model Kolb aircraft, rather than individual tests that present results 

to the List based on their inprecise methods of testing.



I would be more than happy to participate in such a test, as the Kolb 

without VG's.  Even side by side would not be precise, but would seem 

to me much better than what we have now.  Based on what I have read 

and seen on the List and the internet, I don't think I'll run right 

out and start sticking VG's on Miss P'fer.  I guess I have seen Kolbs 

fly with them, but have not paid that much particular attention at the 

time.  Wasn't any noticeable difference in performance between with 

and without.  However, if I could get up close to a MKIII that had 

them, compare take off, cruise, slow flight, short landings, etc., 

then I would be better prepared to make a semi-educated decision about 

VG's.



If me and Miss P'fer are put to shame, I'll run right out, get a 

bucket full of VG's and start sticking.



Take care,



john h

Naked MKIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Denny Rowe

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Leechburg, PA

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:49 pm Post subject: VG's

John,

Seeing how the take off and landing performance of Miss Pfer is already 

beyond the stock Mk-3 due to your gear mods, a side by side comparison with 

most any other Mk-3 with VGs would be worthless.

Why don't you just make a bucket full of em out of Lexan and stick em on 

with double sided tape (outside the prop arc of course) and let us know your 

results.

I don't have them either but if Possums and brother Pike say they work, I 

tend to beleive them.

Again, I am not endorsing their use nor do I plan on installing them but 

their benifits on all types of planes seem to be fact, not fiction and you 

yourself are well known to want the most out of your bird. After all your 

mods, it seems like temporarily sticking a few VGs on your wings would be 

childs play.



Denny Rowe



---

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: VG's

[quote="John Hauck]

  However, if I could get up close to a MKIII that had 

them, compare take off, cruise, slow flight, short landings, etc., 

then I would be better prepared to make a semi-educated decision about 

VG's.



[/quote]



Hi John



It wont be to long before my MK III is finished with VG's on it.  It will be very similar to yours, 912's, Classic Flaps, Slightly heavy...  Im sure we will meet up at a fly in one day and you will be welcome to try it and see if you like them.



Michael A. Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:10 pm Post subject: VG's

| 

<rowedl(at)highstream.net>

| Seeing how the take off and landing performance of Miss Pfer is 

already

| beyond the stock Mk-3 due to your gear mods, a side by side 

comparison with

| most any other Mk-3 with VGs would be worthless.



Got stock wings, tail, and an 11 lb tail wheel.    Not going to fly 

any sooner than stock.  Don't see how the main gear are going to give 

it a lower stall speed/approach speed.



| Why don't you just make a bucket full of em out of Lexan and stick 

em on

| with double sided tape (outside the prop arc of course) and let us 

know your

| results.



Don't have time right now.



| I don't have them either but if Possums and brother Pike say they 

work, I

| tend to beleive them.



I also believe them, but would be nice to be there and fly with them 

to compare the difference in real time rather than cyber time on the 

internet.



 After all your

| mods, it seems like temporarily sticking a few VGs on your wings 

would be

| childs play.



Seems that way, but it ain't.  What mods are you talking about?  I 

haven't changed any flight characteristic of a MKIII from what was 

called for in the 1991 edition of the plans.  I don't mess with 

Homer's flight characteristics and never have.



Shucks, I thought a good fly off comparison would be a good way to get 

a good idea of what I am missing.



john h

Looking for a little comparison.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:25 pm Post subject: VG's

| It wont be to long before my MK III is finished with VG's on it. 

Im sure we will meet up at a flyin one day and you will be welcome to 

try it and see if you like them.

|

| Michael A. Bigelow



Thanks Mike:



One of these days I'll get to make a comparison.  Guess I am going to 

have to be patient.



john h

MKIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

kinnepix(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:14 am Post subject: VG's

Ellery

I'm in CT, not ME -- but not by choice. ME is a great state. I run  

boats up & down coast (boatrelocate.com), used to fly, mostly  

coastal, like to troutfish (anywhere), hike (do), haven't yet run   

Allagash but would like to. Whjere are you?

fair winds,

Russ

do not archive



On Jan 16, 2006, at 10:40 AM, ElleryWeld(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Russ K are you in Maine ?



 Ellery in Maine

 do not archive

Denny Rowe

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Leechburg, PA

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:27 am Post subject: VG's

---

vicsvinyl(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:39 am Post subject: VG's

Hey Russ, I'm about 60+ miles from Ellery And I can tell you , "yoy can't 

get Theya from heya"



Vic

MK3X

Smellinocket,Me 



--

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:52 am Post subject: VG's

CT thats where my wife is from 

I have been on the Alligash Water Way many times it is a great place  I am In 

a small town called Levant 11 miles West of" KBGR" Bangor International 

Airport



Ellery  

do not archive

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:28 am Post subject: VG's

Hi,

the only way that John is going to be convinced of the efficacy of VG`s is 

to fit some to his own bird and try it.  Kit built planes vary quite a bit 

in performance depending on the builder and flying one against the other 

would be a pretty useless exercise.



The only way is to fly a single plane, establish a datum, fit the VG`s and 

fly it and measure again.



Cheers



Pat



do not archive 



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