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701 seat belt attach

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John Bolding

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 281

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:53 pm Post subject: 701 seat belt attach

What DIFFERENCE does it make if some dimension on0 the seat belt attach fitting does not match a drawing when the WHOLE DAMN0 FITTING pulls out in an accident and lets you kiss the panel ???  This is0 NOT green vs. maroon scotchbrite,  this is the restraint system on0 your aircraft which some of us on this list (and/or our friends and loved0 ones)will one day need and test to its limits. The 701 seat belt0 attach  has been shown recently that it is probably/possibly (you0 choose)not up to the task .

  

 I have no clue if the 601 is the same design as I0 don't have those drawings (somebody help me here) but if it does hopefully0 enough folks will bug Zenith for an analysis of the failure(MAYBE it was an0 anamoly) and a fix, if warranted. Since Jon's accident I have looked thru my0 collection of about 35 homebuilt aircraft drawings (too many airplanes, not0 enough time) and NONE of the seat belt fittings are secured with a row of 50 pulled rivets into a single thickness of .025 aluminum. Not even close. Maybe0 Chris has figured out something that Thorpe, Thurston,C.G. Taylor,Van, and0 others didn't......If a seat belt attach fitting pulled out of a Ford and some0 cute 10yr old went thru a windshield you would hear about it on CNN.and0 1,678 personal injury lawyers would have a collective orgasm. The engineers0 would be all over it NOW.

 This was brought up right after Jon was gracious0 enough to allow us post mortum pictures and  the interest level was0 almost non-existent but since then there has been hundreds of posts of0 mostly fluff when compared to the importance of this (in my deranged mind0 anyway).  If I'm playing left field without a glove somebody tell me to sit0 down and keep quiet.  When you do, gently explain to me how 50 "poprivets" into a sheet of alum slightly thicker than a beer can is going to0 keep me in place at 40 G's. It didn't work with Jon. 

 I REALLY shouldn't write stuff at 1:30 AM but I'm0 thick skinned so fire away!!   LOW&SLOW  0 John

doug kandle

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 33
Location: Boise ID

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:26 am Post subject: Re: 701 seat belt attach

I don't watch this thread all of the time and so I am not familiar with the incident with Jon.  Could you say what basically happened or point me to the thread with that discussion.

Thanks

nfivesl(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:44 am Post subject: 701 seat belt attach

John:



As usual you bring up a very good point.  I talked to

Jon Croke at Oshkosh and saw his scars.  Thanks for

the post.  I'm attaching a portion of a scan from my

601XL drawings showing the 601XL seat belt attachment.

 



Here is a picture of mine installed since I followed

the drawings while building.  

http://www.cooknwithgas.com/3_02_06_ELT.jpg



As you can see in the photo it is not used and I

attached mine further back using AN3 bolts into a 3/4"

thick longeron.  



I did this for peace of mind.  Thanks again,



Scott Laughlin

http://www.cooknwithgas.com/

working on Engine Cowl



--- John Bolding <jnbolding1(at)teleshare.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I have no clue if the 601 is the same design as I

 don't have those drawings (somebody help me here)


	


__________________________________________________

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NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:50 am Post subject: 701 seat belt attach

Was it the shoulder or seat tunnel attachment that let0 go?

  

  

  

 In a message dated 8/3/2006 10:46:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,0 nfivesl(at)yahoo.com writes:

 John:



As usual you bring up a very good point.  I talked0   to

Jon Croke at Oshkosh and saw his scars.  Thanks for

the0   post.  I'm attaching a portion of a scan from my

601XL drawings0   showing the 601XL seat belt attachment.

Here is a picture of mine0   installed since I followed

the drawings while building. 0   

http://www.cooknwithgas.com/3_02_06_ELT.jpg



As you can see in the0   photo it is not used and I

attached mine further back using AN3 bolts into0   a 3/4"

thick longeron.  



I did this for peace of mind. 0   Thanks again,



Scott Laughlin

http://www.cooknwithgas.com/

working0   on Engine Cowl



--- John Bolding0   <jnbolding1(at)teleshare.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I have no clue if the06010   is the same design as I

 don't have those drawings (somebody help me0   here)


	


[/quote]

doug kandle

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 33
Location: Boise ID

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:09 am Post subject: Re: 701 seat belt attach

We had a tragic accident at an airport here that shows just how difficult it is to know how to attach the seat belts.  A Long EZ went off the runway and broke off the main gear.  The pilot died because as the gear came off it yanked down on the shoulder harness (which was apparently attached to or near the gear).  He appeared OK but died as they were loading him into the ambulance.   This just goes to show that you don't want the belts attached to the strongest part of the plane, if it is at all possible for that part to be separated from your seat.



I have some worry about the attachment on the side if the 701.  If the gear were to be hit very hard (like by a ditch on a forced landing), then they might twist off.  In that case if they don't break free, they would wind up the side of the 701 (which is exactly where the seat belt is attached).  I just hope that the design has the gear retaining bolts breaking before the airframe deforms significantly.

tya2(at)4-fly.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:23 am Post subject: 701 seat belt attach

Dear List,



	The issue with seat belt attachment points and their strength is not just 

a homebuilt aircraft problem, it exists with real commercial aircraft as 

well.   Last week 5 people were seriously injured then their seat belt 

attachment points failed in a Dash 8 turboprop aircraft flying over 

Manitoba Canada.  The Canadian Transportation Safety Board is 

investigating.   The seat belt attachment points failed in turbulence and 

not in a CRASH!!.



	Remember we don't have a 40 g body.



Rocky

1995 CH2000

armyret(at)mchsi.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:30 am Post subject: 701 seat belt attach

John-  I can't speak to the 701 seat belt0 situation, but I can from first hand speak to the 601XL seat belt.  A year0 ago, I nosed into a concrete runway in my 601XL, crushed nose wheel, bent back0 up into the cabin floor, prop shattered, etc etc.  I didn't have a scratch0 as the seat belt held as it was designed to do. Last month I bounced a C-172 on0 a grass strip and bent the rear fuselage enough that I lost all control of0 rudder and elevator.(Cables loosened), End result, broken nose wheel, totaled0 the Cessna.  I was thrown into the right side window, breaking it and my0 nose, head etc. The only difference in these two incidents were the Cessna0 didn't have a shoulder belt and the 601XL did.  The seat belt on the Cessna0 held or I would have been a stat for the NTSB.  I've got much faith in0 the 601XL seat belt system.  As I re-build, I noticed that the 601XL0 seatbelt attachment points were not harmed, not even bent. 

 Al Young

 601XL 

 [quote]   ---

dougsnash(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 6:35 am Post subject: 701 seat belt attach

I discussed Jon's seat belt bracket issues with the

CAN-ZAC boys at Oshkosh.  They have looked at Jon's

plane and specifically looked at the seat belt issue.



They told me that the top shoulder belt attachment is

designed to allow some give (crumple zone).  On Jon's

plane this function served well.  They did suggest

beefing up the attachment point a bit on the tunnel

since this is what let go on Jon's plane.



I'm thinking an 040 doubler on the inside of the

tunnel might be the answer.  I'm not to that point and

will be discussing further with CAN-ZAC when I start

to get close.



Doug MacDonald

CH-701 Scratch Builder

NW ONtario, Canada



__________________________________________________

n4546v(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:18 am Post subject: 701 seat belt attach

Lister Chuck Dietrich identified this concern, came up with a fix, and

installed it on his 701 before he flew.  He has posted about it and I'm sure

it's in the archives.  I'm sure he'd comment again if asked.



Regards,

Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas  do not archive

 	  Quote: 	
		   I'm thinking an 040 doubler on the inside of the

 tunnel might be the answer.  I'm not to that point and

 will be discussing further with CAN-ZAC when I start

 to get close.



 Doug MacDonald

 CH-701 Scratch Builder

 NW ONtario, Canada

cffd(at)pgrb.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:54 am Post subject: 701 seat belt attach

Doug,

Here is what I wrote.



When I built my 701, I did not feel comfortable with the aluminum seat belt

attachment that was riveted to the tunnel.  In fact, somewhere 4 or 5 years

ago, on this forum, I read where the bolt between the seat belt and the

aluminum attachment pulled a slot through the attachment.  So I made my

attachment from 0.40" 4130 steel instead of 0.40" 6061 aluminum.  I then

used the 0.40" 6061 as a doubler on the inside of the tunnel to give more

thickness to keep the rivets from pulling through. I did not ask ZAC about

this, but I feel that this is a stronger anchor which actually gets pulled

by both the lap and shoulder straps.



Chuck D.

N701TX



---

mgraves(at)usmo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:18 am Post subject: 701 seat belt attach

Here is a picture of the 701 plane crash  that Chuck D. refers to........N4386W



And a picture of the seat belt attachment showing it pulled through.



It was not Chuck's or my plane.  I believe the plane was in Colorado at the 

time

Monty Graves



At 11:53 AM 8/6/2006 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Doug,

Here is what I wrote.



When I built my 701, I did not feel comfortable with the aluminum seat belt

attachment that was riveted to the tunnel.  In fact, somewhere 4 or 5 years

ago, on this forum, I read where the bolt between the seat belt and the

aluminum attachment pulled a slot through the attachment.  So I made my

attachment from 0.40" 4130 steel instead of 0.40" 6061 aluminum.  I then

used the 0.40" 6061 as a doubler on the inside of the tunnel to give more

thickness to keep the rivets from pulling through. I did not ask ZAC about

this, but I feel that this is a stronger anchor which actually gets pulled

by both the lap and shoulder straps.



Chuck D.

N701TX

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rwehba(at)cebridge.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:05 am Post subject: 701 seat belt attach

did it hit a hole and flip??

---

cffd(at)pgrb.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:54 am Post subject: 701 seat belt attach

NSTB report:

Meshko Zenair / CH-701, Subaru / EA 81 150TTB1



The pilot had just taken off and was climbing at 80 percent power (5,000

rpm) when he noticed the EGT rising "into redline 1,625 degrees F." He

leveled off, reduced power to 4,800 rpm, and reduced propeller pitch. EGT

stopped rising and came down slightly, but was still above redline. All

other engine indications were normal. EGT continued to rise and the engine

started losing power and was "running rough." The pilot tried to land at a

nearby airport, but was forced to make a landing in an open field. He said

he flared at the the last  moment and hit the ground sharply. The nose wheel

broke off when it struck a tire track and the airplane nosed over. The

pilot, who also built the airplane, suspected detonation caused the rise in

EGT.



---

mgraves(at)usmo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:11 am Post subject: 701 seat belt attach

I forget what happened.  Its in the archives



Looks more like he tried to land going across the rows instead of with 

them.  Looks like the nose wheel completely separated from the 

aircraft.  Then the nose  and prop dug in and flipped.......  Not sure what 

kind of stubble that is,   but a sure way to do some serious damage is land 

in corn stubble across the rows.......



The plane was painted in Frontier Airline colors.  I believe the pilot was 

a pilot for them with high time hrs...  just not in the 701........



Monty



At 06:03 AM 8/7/2006 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



did it hit a hole and flip??

JERICKSON03E(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:48 am Post subject: 701 seat belt attach

In a message dated 8/7/2006 5:20:27 AM Central Daylight Time, mgraves(at)usmo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Here is a picture of the 701 plane crash  that Chuck D. refers to........N4386W



And a picture of the seat belt attachment showing it pulled through.



It was not Chuck's or my plane.  I believe the plane was in Colorado at the 

time 	


  

 It seems to be an early design, the belt attachment fitting thickness on early prints is .040.

 Current prints call for .063 thickness.  Just for info.

entecrj(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:00 am Post subject: 701 seat belt attach

 	  Quote: 	
		   Looks more like he tried to land going across the rows instead of with 

 them.  Looks like the nose wheel completely separated from the aircraft. 

 Then the nose  and prop dug in and flipped.......  Not sure what kind of 

 stubble that is,   but a sure way to do some serious damage is land in 

 corn stubble across the rows.......



 The plane was painted in Frontier Airline colors.  I believe the pilot was 

 a pilot for them with high time hrs...  just not in the 701........



 Monty

+++++++++++++++++++++++
	




Thats wheat stubble in the picture, wheat stubble rows are fairly shallow, 

but you can't rule out ruts from combine and grain cart tires.



R. Johnson

do not archive

cffd(at)pgrb.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:18 pm Post subject: 701 seat belt attach

The 200 pound Subaru probably did not help the nose gear and the ability to

flare.

 	  Quote: 	
		   NSTB report:

 Meshko Zenair / CH-701, Subaru / EA 81 150TTB1



 The pilot had just taken off and was climbing at 80 percent power (5,000

 rpm) when he noticed the EGT rising "into redline 1,625 degrees F." He

 leveled off, reduced power to 4,800 rpm, and reduced propeller pitch. EGT

 stopped rising and came down slightly, but was still above redline. All

 other engine indications were normal. EGT continued to rise and the engine

 started losing power and was "running rough." The pilot tried to land at a

 nearby airport, but was forced to make a landing in an open field. He said

 he flared at the the last  moment and hit the ground sharply. The nose

wheel
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   broke off when it struck a tire track and the airplane nosed over. The

 pilot, who also built the airplane, suspected detonation caused the rise

in
	


[quote] EGT.



 ---

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:18 pm Post subject: 701 seat belt attach

I am no expert in accidents but have made a couple of search and rescue missions and have talked to local experts a lot.  This gives me some hints where to look.



I think this pilot got "get-down-itis"  and just pointed to nose to the ground.  Maybe he tried or thinked to level for flare when the front wheel was about an inch from the ground.



Look at the wing tips they just smashed to the ground,  not a low  speed stall, because both wing tips are damaged very similar, The plane was flown to the ground,  also the distance where front wheel and the prop hub touched the ground is only a few inches from the nose of the inverted plane. 



Good thing that was the old and lighter 701 and (I think) was not going fast (40 mph or less maybe),  but he just hit the ground at an angle (?)!.   He was lucky to survive  (he is commenting the accident, another hint ...



Just my point of view, probably completly  wrong. Please Do not archive.



Saludos

Gary Gower.

Flying from Chapala, Mexico.



Chuck Deiterich <cffd(at)pgrb.com> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Chuck Deiterich" 



NSTB report:

Meshko Zenair / CH-701, Subaru / EA 81 150TTB1



The pilot had just taken off and was climbing at 80 percent power (5,000

rpm) when he noticed the EGT rising "into redline 1,625 degrees F." He

leveled off, reduced power to 4,800 rpm, and reduced propeller pitch. EGT

stopped rising and came down slightly, but was still above redline. All

other engine indications were normal. EGT continued to rise and the engine

started losing power and was "running rough." The pilot tried to land at a

nearby airport, but was forced to make a landing in an open field. He said

he flared at the the  last  moment and hit the ground sharply. The nose wheel

broke off when it struck a tire track and the airplane nosed over. The

pilot, who also built the airplane, suspected detonation caused the rise in

EGT.



---

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