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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:43 am Post subject: flap takeoff

Group,  after finding little on the subject, I humbly seek advice.

OK, I really like the flaps (only one notch so far) for landing.

Very gentle touchdowns.  But now I'm wondering about one

notch takeoffs?  Sure, those SUV/MKIIIs with 90 hp will leap

off like a feather so configured, but I seek the experience of

those who have used them while powered with a lesser

powerplant.  This would be, of course, lightly loaded, solo.

-BB

do not archive

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:03 am Post subject: flap takeoff

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: flap takeoff

Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 12:42:21 -0400

Group,  after finding little on the subject, I humbly seek advice.

OK, I really like the flaps (only one notch so far) for landing.

Very gentle touchdowns.  But now I'm wondering about one

notch takeoffs?  Sure, those SUV/MKIIIs with 90 hp will leap

off like a feather so configured, but I seek the experience of

those who have used them while powered with a lesser

powerplant.  This would be, of course, lightly loaded, solo.

-BB

do not archive

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

http://wiki.matronics.com

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:03 am Post subject: flap takeoff

Robert,

I like cleaning it up before I took off with my 582 and a Mark III. Just 

felt like it worked better, no science on the subject. Once with a passenger 

I took off with one notch, it seemed like it took A LOT longer to get off 

the ground. Even solo I clean it up before take off.

Dave



do not archive

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: flap takeoff

Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 12:42:21 -0400






Group,  after finding little on the subject, I humbly seek advice.

OK, I really like the flaps (only one notch so far) for landing.

Very gentle touchdowns.  But now I'm wondering about one

notch takeoffs?  Sure, those SUV/MKIIIs with 90 hp will leap

off like a feather so configured, but I seek the experience of

those who have used them while powered with a lesser

powerplant.  This would be, of course, lightly loaded, solo.

-BB

do not archive





http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

http://wiki.matronics.com

APilot(at)webtv.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:13 am Post subject: flap takeoff

I have taken of with none, one notch and full.  No problem with any

setting.  Climb seems the same with none and one notch.  Probably

because with one notch, more air gets to the lower arc of the prop.  It

does not seem to climb efficiently with full flaps.  With more

horsepower, it would probably be fine.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:27 pm Post subject: flap takeoff

|  But now I'm wondering about one

| notch takeoffs?   | -BB



BB/Gang:



I find the MKIII takes off and climbs much better without the use of 

flaps.



However, there are times when flaps will assist in getting the MKIII 

off the ground quicker, i.e., flying off soft, rough, wet, sandy 

fields.  I usually start my ground roll clean.  When the AIS needle 

swings through 30 mph, I snatch in full flaps.  The MKIII usually pops 

right off the ground.  Soon as it breaks ground, I slowly push them 

back up to the clean position.



At times I use one notch, 20 degs of flaps to get me out of my short 

field.  That is when my max gross take off weight is pushing 1,200 

lbs.  20 degs of flaps gives me more latitude to stay above stall, 

although it is not climbing as quickly nor moving as fast across the 

ground as it would when loaded much lighter.  I have to make a 90 deg 

right or left turn on takeoff to the north from my strip if I am 

loaded to heavily to climb straight out over the tall trees to the 

north.



I never attempt to take off and continue to climb out with full flaps. 

Not a good idea.  Does not work.  If the mkIII is stalled with full 

flaps at low level, it is likely not going to be able to recovered 

before you bounce off the ground.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

boyter(at)mcsi.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:52 pm Post subject: flap takeoff

Robert

I like cleaning it up before I took off with my 582 and a Mark III. Just

felt like it worked better, If I had a engine out on take off I would not 

like the flaps on.

I have 450 hrs.

Wayne

---

Eugene Zimmerman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:25 pm Post subject: flap takeoff

On Jul 30, 2006, at 8:50 PM, Wayne Boyter wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   , If I had a engine out on take off I would not like the flaps on.

 I have 450 hrs.

 Wayne


	


There is one really good effect of having some flaps on take off.



All the high thrust-line kolbs have one very significant  

vulnerability that is commonly overlooked.



That is ,,, should a "SUDDEN" engine out ever occur while in a very  

steep  typical Kolb climb, the adequate  nose down rotation that is  

required to prevent an inadvertent stall from this attitude and  

airspeed is extremely difficult to achieve without the rotational  

help of flaps.



For this reason I  also prefer a trim setting on takeoff that  

requires that I hold some back stick pressure until adequate altitude  

is reached

Experiment with it sometime at altitude.

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:12 pm Post subject: flap takeoff

Thanks for all the input.

-BB



On 30, Jul 2006, at 8:50 PM, Wayne Boyter wrote:



[quote] 



 Robert

 I like cleaning it up before I took off with my 582 and a Mark III. 

 Just

 felt like it worked better, If I had a engine out on take off I would 

 not like the flaps on.

 I have 450 hrs.

 Wayne

 ---

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:20 am Post subject: flap takeoff

Just a further comment on flaps. Those of us that fly the MKIII with stock 

length gear legs have a limited angle of attack when on the ground. I use 

one notch of flap every time I take off (except in high winds). This 

increases the effective angle of attack. Then just after lift off I retract 

the flaps. The short gear legs limit the angle of attack. Kolb designed our 

planes this way to keep us safer by making sure we are well over stall speed 

before take off. The down side is it increases the take off roll and speed.



Sorry if I get long winded but... I just got my biannual check ride. This is 

my once every two years ride in a C172. Afterwards I shared my forced 

landing experience in MKIIIc with him. I started to tell him how I used the 

flaps to adjust my glide path to get me where I wanted to land (kind of like 

a negative throttle) and fully retracted them for landing. He stopped me and 

said you never never raise your flaps on approach. We then got into a heavy 

discussion about flap usage. He finally conceded that it might work in one 

of "those" Kolbs but not in a GA aircraft. I obviously need to take him up 

in my Kolb and should have done it right then in the C172 but at close to 

$100 per hour it wasn't worth it.



For those of you that haven't tried it get some altitude and find a landing 

spot. Pull the throttle back and establish a glide. Then grab the flap 

handle and add some flap. Be aware that as you add flap you need to push 

forward on the stick to increase your decent rate to keep your airspeed up. 

When you raise the flaps pull back. Don't lock the flaps in a notch just 

play with it a bit. Watch were the touch point changes when you add or 

decrease the flaps. You may need to change your grip but pull in full flaps 

and be sure you nose down quickly. You will be surprised how much you can 

adjust your glide slope. Be sure you don't get into that airspeed area where 

you might stall if you raise the flaps. Most of us fly an approach well 

above stall speed and decreasing flaps decreases the angle of attack but be 

careful especially near the ground. Don't forget there are other tools you 

can and should use like circling and S turns. My point is use every tool you 

can to make a safe landing.



My personal forced landing rule is that I will retract all the flaps once I 

have the field made. This makes my MKIIIc land more like it does during my 

normal landing where I use one notch of flap and maintain some power.



One last point most instructors have a set of rules that they teach everyone 

and this is very good. But like most rules they are base lines that you may 

be able to deviate from. Don't blindly follow these rules if bending them 

can save your life. Education and experience can help here but remember 

there is one rule you can't break and that is that gravity will bite you if 

you screw up.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIc



 ---

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:03 am Post subject: flap takeoff

You did good. Several years ago when I got the clog in my oil line and 

the 582 died, I was right off the end of a paved RC model strip (Yes, 

Amazing Grace is amazing...) and knew I had the strip made, but since it 

was short and I figured I would only get one shot at it, I used the 

flaps exactly as you describe to adjust the glide slope. Worked very well.

However, since my home strip is only 750' long, I always land with full 

flaps, and even at "real airports", I always use full flaps, that way I 

am programmed to anticipate how it will land every time.

What did the instructor say about power off stalls & recovery in a Kolb? 

"At the break, add power..." Another fertile area for discussion...



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>



 Just a further comment on flaps. Those of us that fly the MKIII with 

 stock length gear legs have a limited angle of attack when on the 

 ground. I use one notch of flap every time I take off (except in high 

 winds). This increases the effective angle of attack. Then just after 

 lift off I retract the flaps. The short gear legs limit the angle of 

 attack. Kolb designed our planes this way to keep us safer by making 

 sure we are well over stall speed before take off. The down side is it 

 increases the take off roll and speed.



 Sorry if I get long winded but... I just got my biannual check ride. 

 This is my once every two years ride in a C172. Afterwards I shared my 

 forced landing experience in MKIIIc with him. I started to tell him 

 how I used the flaps to adjust my glide path to get me where I wanted 

 to land (kind of like a negative throttle) and fully retracted them 

 for landing. He stopped me and said you never never raise your flaps 

 on approach. We then got into a heavy discussion about flap usage. He 

 finally conceded that it might work in one of "those" Kolbs but not in 

 a GA aircraft. I obviously need to take him up in my Kolb and should 

 have done it right then in the C172 but at close to $100 per hour it 

 wasn't worth it.



 For those of you that haven't tried it get some altitude and find a 

 landing spot. Pull the throttle back and establish a glide. Then grab 

 the flap handle and add some flap. Be aware that as you add flap you 

 need to push forward on the stick to increase your decent rate to keep 

 your airspeed up. When you raise the flaps pull back. Don't lock the 

 flaps in a notch just play with it a bit. Watch were the touch point 

 changes when you add or decrease the flaps. You may need to change 

 your grip but pull in full flaps and be sure you nose down quickly. 

 You will be surprised how much you can adjust your glide slope. Be 

 sure you don't get into that airspeed area where you might stall if 

 you raise the flaps. Most of us fly an approach well above stall speed 

 and decreasing flaps decreases the angle of attack but be careful 

 especially near the ground. Don't forget there are other tools you can 

 and should use like circling and S turns. My point is use every tool 

 you can to make a safe landing.



 My personal forced landing rule is that I will retract all the flaps 

 once I have the field made. This makes my MKIIIc land more like it 

 does during my normal landing where I use one notch of flap and 

 maintain some power.



 One last point most instructors have a set of rules that they teach 

 everyone and this is very good. But like most rules they are base 

 lines that you may be able to deviate from. Don't blindly follow these 

 rules if bending them can save your life. Education and experience can 

 help here but remember there is one rule you can't break and that is 

 that gravity will bite you if you screw up.



 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIc

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:33 am Post subject: flap takeoff

| What did the instructor say about power off stalls & recovery in a 

Kolb?

| "At the break, add power..." Another fertile area for discussion...

|

| Richard Pike



Rev/Gang:



Recovery from a stall in a Kolb is a no brainer.    Usually, 

relaxing your grip on the stick will take care of that little problem. 

However, be surprised how many folks will pull the stick back and try 

to make the airplane fly when they inadvertently stall near the 

ground.  Some only get to try that once.



Reference forced landings and flaps in a mkIII:  I'll do what ever it 

takes to get me down in one piece.  Probably the best way to survive a 

forced landing is a lot of practice forced landings, dead stick.  I 

don't know any other way to do it better.  Kolbs are entirely 

different animals with the prop spinning at idle and with the prop not 

spinning at all.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

kuffel(at)cyberport.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:42 am Post subject: flap takeoff

Rick,



<<He stopped me and said you never never raise your flaps on approach.>>



Have the same discussion with a CFI who is glider rated.  He/she will 

immediately understand how you are using flaps in the same manner as 

spoilers.  The trick, of course is to maintain your (hopefully constant) 

airspeed well above stall when you do retract the flaps.



Tom Kuffel (yeah, CFI with a glider rating, but FAI not FAA)

Whitefish, MT

Building Original Firestar.

Dave Pelletier

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 100
Location: Prescott, Arizona

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:14 am Post subject: flap takeoff

 	  Quote: 	
		    Kolbs are entirely

 different animals with the prop spinning at idle and with the prop not

 spinning at all.



 john h

 mkIII


	


I agree.  Before I ever took up a passenger, a requirement I made for myself 

was that I'd do six "ignition off" landings.  I did and each one of them was 

a hard landing.  Fortunately not hard enough to bend the gear legs.  I did 

this with my Firestar and the landings were fine.  I'm not sure why the hard 

landings with the MKIII.  Seems like I had plenty of airspeed, especially 

with the last three.  The nose would come up but the airplane wouldn't flare 

and would "pancake" in.



I think it was because of two things.  . My fear of ballooning and not 

having power available to "goose" it probably meant that I was reluctant to 

pull back hard enough on the stick.  2. Not having propeller air flow over 

the elevator probably made for a less effective elevator.  Figured I'd 

better quit before I did serious damage.



AzDave

 	  Quote:

_________________
AzDave

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:27 am Post subject: flap takeoff

I'm not sure why the hard

| landings with the MKIII.  Seems like I had plenty of airspeed, 

especially

| with the last three.  The nose would come up but the airplane 

wouldn't flare

| and would "pancake" in.

 |

| AzDave



Dave:



Got to keep above the stall or it will quit flying.



For best results the mains should be close to the ground, like inches.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:20 am Post subject: flap takeoff

Actually, what I was hoping to instigate was a dialogue comparing the a 

Kolb stall to the typical mantra that most instructors will give you 

when you do a power off stall in a C172 or such. Something like, "As the 

nose drops, you ease the stick forward while adding power to arrest the 

descent."



I have a good friend who is a CFI, and several years ago we went for the 

first of several biannuals in the MKIII. He is of the school that a 

nibble and a buffet is not a stall. To him, a power off stall is a 

"whee, there-goes-the-nose" stall, and that is what he wanted to see a 

recovery from - a genuine stall. Works for me, those are the ones that 

bite you. When he noticed that I waited until I had substantially 

recovered from the stall before putting the throttle in, he remarked 

that "I would lose less altitude if I put the throttle in immediately at 

the break."

I suggested to him that with the MKIII's high thrust line, if it got a 

big dose of throttle while seriously stalled, the recovery could be a 

lot more exciting. I said that in a low altitude stall especially, 

getting the nose down and getting it solidly flying again was more 

important than getting the power in ASAP. So his modified instructions 

were - as soon as it feels like it is flying is a good time to add power.



This got me wondering about SOP for power off stall recovery on a Lake 

Amphibian, and apparently they have very large stabilizer trim tabs 

located in the prop blast to preclude such questions.

http://www.seaplanes.org/gateway/seaplane_smpl.htm

http://aircraftinnovation.com/training/instr-techniques.html



Anyway, that was the "fertile area for discussion." Or not.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



do not archive



John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

  | What did the instructor say about power off stalls & recovery in a 

 Kolb?

 | "At the break, add power..." Another fertile area for discussion...

 |

 | Richard Pike



 Rev/Gang:



 Recovery from a stall in a Kolb is a no brainer.    Usually, 

 relaxing your grip on the stick will take care of that little problem. 

 However, be surprised how many folks will pull the stick back and try 

 to make the airplane fly when they inadvertently stall near the 

 ground.  Some only get to try that once.



 Reference forced landings and flaps in a mkIII:  I'll do what ever it 

 takes to get me down in one piece.  Probably the best way to survive a 

 forced landing is a lot of practice forced landings, dead stick.  I 

 don't know any other way to do it better.  Kolbs are entirely 

 different animals with the prop spinning at idle and with the prop not 

 spinning at all.



 john h

 mkIII

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:32 pm Post subject: flap takeoff

Richard



I saw your comment about the stall recovery but I never talked about it with 

my CFI. Personally I don't like stalls. I don't do them and don't practice 

them. I know I should but... What I do is practice not doing them. There are 

a number of things that they have us do in the check ride that doesn't make 

sense to me. Yes my CFI also wants to see much more than a nibble or a 

buffet. In normal flight I'm never going to feel a nibble or a buffet and 

blunder on into a full blown stall. The only time this might happen is when 

I'm close to the ground like takeoff or landing. How stupid? No I do 

practice slow flight down to the point where my airplane is telling me 

WARNING you push me any further and I will stall.Then I recover as quickly 

as possible. Another big test all CFIs seem to want is fly a 45 degree bank 

turn without gaining or loosing altitude. What does that do for us? Again in 

normal flight we never do this. On occasion I do high bank turns like they 

want you to do landing to the north/west at Oshkosh but I'm flying a 

approach profile not holding altitude.



Granted there are some reasonable things they have us do during the biannual 

but most of it is just a pain in the.....



Maybe John W. could enlighten us. He is a CFI and I'm sure he has had to 

jump thru many more hoops as a airline captain than we have to.



Sorry I will stop my rant.



Do not archive



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIc



---

APilot(at)webtv.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:41 am Post subject: flap takeoff

My landings are hard too.  Everything looks fine and I expect it to

settle in on three points.  But, it doesn't settle....just

drops.......bam.  It is worse with no flaps.  Carrying a little power

makes things much easier, but I prefer power off landings.  At 2000 rpms

(smooth idle), the thrust is 20 lbs. and I imagine that it simulates the

dynamics of a stopped prop landing. Will find out more when I start my

ignition off landing practice.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:03 am Post subject: flap takeoff

| 

|

| My landings are hard too.  Everything looks fine and I expect it to

| settle in on three points.  But, it doesn't settle....just

| drops.......bam.

APilot:



The airplane is landing exactly like any airplane lands.  If you are 

too high when it stalls, it will quit flying, and hit hard.  If you 

place the airplane a few inches off the ground, hold it until it 

stalls, it will land nice and gentle.



 At 2000 rpms

| (smooth idle), the thrust is 20 lbs. and I imagine that it simulates 

the

| dynamics of a stopped prop landing.



Not quite.  The slowly rotating prop acts just as though it were a 

large disc, creating a lot of drag.  When the prop is stopped, the 

only drag experienced is the actual area of each blade.  There is a 

lot of difference between dead stick and engine idling landings.



My own personal experience only.  However, most Kolbs fly very much 

alike.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:14 pm Post subject: flap takeoff

APilot



John is right, stabilize your approach and fly it down to just a few inches 

off the ground and it will settle in nice and smooth. The problem is holding 

that approach down just till just that right point a few inches above the 

ground before you flair. If you are used to big general aviation airplanes 

you will have more problems doing this than any one else because you are 

used to airplanes that have allot more inertia than a MKIII. Getting a good 

landing with no power isn't easy. The more flaps you use with no power the 

more difficult it will be. I can't say this enough till you are used to your 

airplane "you need to carry power all the way in till you are inches above 

the ground". Hold the stick steady and cut the power and it will raise the 

nose all by its self just a bit and settle in nice as can be. Do this till 

have it down cold. THEN start using less and less power but don't rush this 

part.



I like to land with some power all the time with one notch of flaps. But do 

what makes you happy and safe. One notch of flap cuts the stall speed a bit 

and the float in ground effect. Also a Kolb MKIIIc will land with no power 

(off, stopped, dead) with no flaps just about like it does with some power 

and one notch of flap.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIc



---

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject: flap takeoff

When I startred flying my Kolb MkIII, my landings were inconsistent. For the purposes of this missive, inconsistent is defined as, do five landings or less, remove gear legs, straighten same, and reinstall. I'm reeeaaaaal good at straightening gear legs. 

This went on through the winter and into the spring. I was pretty bummed and one day while I was on the phone with Travis, I told him I was having problems, I just couldn't seem to get my flair right. I would land perfectly once or twice, then WHAM, time to go see Mr. Press again. 

"You've got to learn to wheel land this airplane and stop trying to three point it. You learn to wheel land this airplane and you'll like it just fine."

Travis, I am convinced, is a genius. I dug out my copy of "The Compleat Taildragger Pilot" by Harvey S. Plourde. Whatta ya know, "learn to wheel land the taildragger first, then advance to three point landings".  Mr.Plourde's reason? Basically, with the wheel landing, you're more likely to get a landing rather than an arrival. Okay, that's a little terse, but it's the essence.

I started working on wheel landings, I bounced a little, but not too bad or too high and I never slammed in again. My landings got smoother. Quite a bit of the improvement was due to my hands and feet slowly evolving from large hams to instruments capable of a bit of delicacy. Now I can truly say that Yesterday, I couldn't spell taildragger pilot, today I are one. 

Mr. Press is very, very lonely.



Rick



On 8/2/06, Richard & Martha Neilsen <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net  (NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net)> wrote:[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" < NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net (NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net)>



APilot



John is right, stabilize your approach and fly it down to just a few inches

off the ground and it will settle in nice and smooth. The problem is holding 

that approach down just till just that right point a few inches above the

ground before you flair. If you are used to big general aviation airplanes

you will have more problems doing this than any one else because you are 

used to airplanes that have allot more inertia than a MKIII. Getting a good

landing with no power isn't easy. The more flaps you use with no power the

more difficult it will be. I can't say this enough till you are used to your 

airplane "you need to carry power all the way in till you are inches above

the ground". Hold the stick steady and cut the power and it will raise the

nose all by its self just a bit and settle in nice as can be. Do this till 

have it down cold. THEN start using less and less power but don't rush this

part.



I like to land with some power all the time with one notch of flaps. But do

what makes you happy and safe. One notch of flap cuts the stall speed a bit 

and the float in ground effect. Also a Kolb MKIIIc will land with no power

(off, stopped, dead) with no flaps just about like it does with some power

and one notch of flap.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIc 



---

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