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Slips and all the rest.
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clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:02 pm Post subject: Slips and all the rest.

I will buy your whole family dinner if you can demonstrate a spin from a slip in a Kitfox.

  

 I stall my airplane in a slip every time I make a cross wind landing. 

  

  Thirdly, when flying gets boring I will slip, starting at the numbers, turn  base, turn  final and then land.  Doing all this while in a slip.   Takes a little concentration. 

  

 Last, a slip is a slip forward, side, backwards or what ever.  Clint

morid(at)northland.lib.mi
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:49 pm Post subject: Slips and all the rest.

About time somebody had the guts to say that. 0 

 Thanks Clint.

 Deke

 do not archive

  

    --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clint0   Bazzill" 

                  I will buy your whole family dinner if you can demonstrate a0   spin from a slip in a Kitfox.

    

   I stall my airplane in a slip every time I make a cross wind0   landing. 

    

    Thirdly, when flying gets boring I will slip, starting at0   the numbers, turn  base, turn  final and then land.  Doing all0   this while in a slip.   Takes a little concentration. 

    

   Last, a slip is a slip forward, side, backwards or what0   ever.  Clint



[/quote]

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:46 pm Post subject: Slips and all the rest.

At 04:01 PM 8/3/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I will buy your whole family dinner if you can demonstrate a spin from a 

slip in a Kitfox. \


	


OK. When I get to that part of my testing I'll give it a try. 

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.



Do not archive

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:32 am Post subject: Slips and all the rest.

Clint sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I will buy your whole family dinner if you can demonstrate a spin 

from a slip in a Kitfox.


	


I'd collect on that if I hadn't wrecked my plane, Clint.  I did it many a time.



You slip an airplane by "cross controlling," i.e., rudder opposite of 

the aileron input.  You spin an airplane by stalling it while 

"uncoordinated," i.e., rudder inappropriate (or even, opposite) for 

the aileron input.  You do the math.



Mike G.

N728KF

mike
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:22 am Post subject: Re: Slips and all the rest.

Oh come on guys, you can't tail spin in a slip.  Why? because you don't have critical angle of attack, that is if you are doing a proper slip, meaning you have forward stick.  I want to add a tid bit here.  Last night at altitude I went and did one of those base to final turns that somebody, not saying who, was mentioning with the tightening the turn with rudder, wow, that scared the crap out of my wife, I didn't tell her I was going to do it, I just did a 30degree left bank and then put in a bunch of left rudder to make a steeper turn then I leveled the wing(to keep 30degree angle) or made a right input in the aileron, I tell ya, it woke me up, felt awful weard.  If you guys are doing this on approach, STOP, because this WILL put you right into a spin before you can say crap.  DO NOT use the rudder to make turns, make the angle steeper with a  corridanated turn (ie. use a little rudder) and raise your air speed or make a go around. If you are not sure how to handle a short approach, get some instruction, by all means do not experiment.

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: Slips and all the rest.

On Aug 4, 2006, at 5:23 PM, kitfoxmike wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Oh come on guys, you can't tail spin in a slip.


	


Guys! I think we all agree! Uncoordinated attitude is always a risk. 

But - and as my initial question was - I understand that a slip is not 

as dangerous than a skid. It doesn't mean that a slip cannot be 

dangerous, it means that it is less so and we have to be careful, 

anyway, anytime and under any  circumstance.

So, let us smoke the peace calumet and have a good time, flying safe.



Cheers,

Michel



do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

mike
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Slips and all the rest.

Interesting enough, this same type of thread is on the vansairforce site.  This was posted and is very interesting to watch.   http://www.apstraining.com/clips/skidded_turn_high.wmv

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:47 am Post subject: Slips and all the rest.

I just watched the video.  They are talking about skids (dangerous) which results in approach to a landing stall.  Usually winding up inverted on short final.  It does not talk about  slips.  Clint

 

 [quote]   

From:  "kitfoxmike" <kitfoxmike(at)yahoo.com>

Reply-To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject:  Re: Slips and all the rest.

Date:  Fri, 4 Aug 2006 10:30:42 -0700

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" <kitfoxmike(at)yahoo.com>



Interesting enough, this same type of thread is on the vansairforce site.  This was posted and is very interesting to watch.   http://www.apstraining.com/clips/skidded_turn_high.wmv



--------

kitfoxmike

kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster

http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike

rv7 wingkit

reserved 287RV





Read this topic online

mike
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:53 am Post subject: Re: Slips and all the rest.

If I do remember right there was one post that one reported about worrying about going inverted on base to final, being brought out by using rudder to sharpen the turn, this video demonstrates what happens when you do that.

mike
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Slips and all the rest.

first off, I'm not upset, just concerned and I don't want to read anymore about accidents.  Now, if a person is in a slip and gets messed up in there thinking, they can go into a skid.  Now, I've read some post were people are slipping and going in a side slip, now in my opinion a side slip is ok, but not to be mistaken for doing a base to final, or any other turn, it's just for alignment when off slightly on your final with the runway.  The skid can accure if doing a slip on base to final, expecially if you are turning one direction over the other depends which side you are slipping.  My advice, take out the slip when making any kind of turn and make sure you have proper down elevator. Last note: this thread says slips and all the rest.  Skids are one of the rest.

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:52 am Post subject: Slips and all the rest.

Never Never Never Never skid an airplane period.  Unless you want to spin period.  I was talking about slips, not skids, slips are safe, we do them everytime we land in a cross wind.  What I did around the pattern in a slip is not recommended unless you know exactly what you are doing.  I did it for my own after a very experienced pilot mentioned that.  Its not easy to turn and control direction in a slip.  I would recommend anyone that would try that would do it at altitude.  And again I will say it would almost be impossible to spin out of a slip.  Clint

 

 [quote]   

From:  "kitfoxmike" <kitfoxmike(at)yahoo.com>

Reply-To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject:  Re: Slips and all the rest.

Date:  Fri, 4 Aug 2006 11:25:40 -0700

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" <kitfoxmike(at)yahoo.com>



first off, I'm not upset, just concerned and I don't want to read anymore about accidents.  Now, if a person is in a slip and gets messed up in there thinking, they can go into a skid.  Now, I've read some post were people are slipping and going in a side slip, now in my opinion a side slip is ok, but not to be mistaken for doing a base to final, or any other turn, it's just for alignment when off slightly on your final with the runway.  The skid can accure if

bmwebb(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 5:19 am Post subject: Slips and all the rest.

Classic cross-control stall maneuver. This demonstration is in every flight

training syllabus, and I had to perform it when doing my CFI practical. I

teach every student how not to get into that situation.



Very good demo video, as a Cessna doesn't do them real well, owing to the

positive stability of the design.



Bradley



--

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:04 am Post subject: Slips and all the rest.

Clint sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  And again I will say it would almost be impossible to spin out of a slip.


	


You can say it all you want, Clint, but it can be done and I've done 

it.  Deliberately, in my case, but as with any stall/spin scenario, 

it can be done inadvertently as well.



Mike G.

N728KF

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:52 pm Post subject: Slips and all the rest.

Tell me exactly how you spin an airplane from a slip.  Clint

 

 [quote]

AMuller589(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:46 pm Post subject: Slips and all the rest.

REGARDINGSKIDS AND SLIPS, especially: Tell me exactly how0 you spin an airplane from a slip.  Clint

  

 This is how it is done according to FAA-H-8083-3 "AIRPLANE FLYING0 HANDBOOK" page 5-11:

 quote: A spin is when the airplane's wing exceeds the angle of attack0 (stall) with a side slip or yaw acting on the airplane at, or beyond the actual0 stall.  During this uncoordinated maneuver, a pilot may not be aware that a0 critical angle of attack has been exceeded until the airplane yaws out of0 control toward the lowering wing. If stall recovery is not initiated0 immediately, the airplane may enter a spin.

     If this stall occurs while the airplane is0in a0 slipping or skidding turn, this can result in a spin entry and rotation in the0 direction that the rudder is being applied, regardless of which wingtip is0 raised. end quote.

  

 The difference between a skid and a slip is shown on page 4-5 of this same0 book. It shows a slip as a maneuver with one wing low and the ball on the0 opposite side of the T & B from the  low wing whereas a slip occurs0 with the ball on the same side as the low wing or the wings level. i.e left0wing0 down ball left is slip wings level ball right is slip, left wing down ball right0 is a skid.

  

 To answer the original question you can spin any time you have a hard over0 rudder AND A STALL. Skids and slips are safe and are demonstration required0 maneuvers AS LONG AS THERE IS NO STALL. (HIGH SPEED OR LOW SPEED)(UNACCELERATED0 OR ACCELERATED).

rjdaugh(at)rapidnet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:25 pm Post subject: Slips and all the rest.

I agree that you can enter a spin anytime you stall in uncoordinated flight.  And both skids and slips are uncoordinated maneuvers.   

   

Can you clarify your info from page 4-5?  I think you have a typo with skid and slip.  

   

I am going to have to try some slips and skids and watch the ball.  

   

Randy  

     

.             

  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of AMuller589(at)aol.com

 Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 3:44 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Slips and all the rest.  

  

     

 REGARDINGSKIDS AND SLIPS, especially: [i]Tell me exactly how you spin an airplane from a slip.  Clint[/i]  

    

   

    

This is how it is done according to FAA-H-8083-3 "AIRPLANE FLYING HANDBOOK" page 5-11:  

    

quote: [i]A spin is when the airplane's wing exceeds the angle of attack (stall) with a side slip or yaw acting on the airplane at, or beyond the actual stall.  During this uncoordinated maneuver, a pilot may not be aware that a critical angle of attack has been exceeded until the airplane yaws out of control toward the lowering wing. If stall recovery is not initiated immediately, the airplane may enter a spin.[/i]  

    

    [i]If this stall occurs while the airplane is in a slipping or skidding turn, this can result in a spin entry and rotation in the direction that the rudder is being applied, regardless of which wingtip is raised.[/i] end quote.  

    

   

    

The difference between a skid and a slip is shown on page 4-5 of this same book. It shows a slip as a maneuver with one wing low and the ball on the opposite side of the T & B from the  low wing whereas a slip occurs with the ball on the same side as the low wing or the wings level. i.e left wing down ball left is slip wings level ball right is slip, left wing down ball right is a skid.  

    

   

    

To answer the original question you can spin any time you have a hard over rudder AND A STALL. Skids and slips are safe and are demonstration required maneuvers AS LONG AS THERE IS NO STALL. (HIGH SPEED OR LOW SPEED)(UNACCELERATED OR ACCELERATED).

dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:48 pm Post subject: Slips and all the rest.

One thing I would add...As I was demonstrating a forward slip to an instructor he asked that I keep the indicated speed up higher than I would normally have it on final. I'm sure this is common knowledge to some, but his answer made complete sence so I think it's worth mentioning...As a forward or side slip is initiated it will of course affect the ram air entering the pitot tube (the air is now entering at an angle). This is especially so when the wing with the pitot tube is aft and air flow is being blocked or disrupted by the fuselage. Now imagine how things might look if the P Tube decided to suck a bug during flight. This probably isn't a problem to a veteran that knows his/her plane...but it may be critical info for a low time pilot to understand.

  Dan 



Randy Daughenbaugh <rjdaugh(at)rapidnet.com> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		                I agree that you can enter a spin anytime you stall in uncoordinated flight.  And both skids and slips are uncoordinated maneuvers. 

   

  Can you clarify your info from page 4-5?  I think you have a typo with skid and slip.

   

  I am going to have to try some slips and skids and watch the ball.

   

  Randy

   

    .           



   

        

  From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of AMuller589(at)aol.com

Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 3:44 PM

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Slips and all the rest.



   

     REGARDINGSKIDS AND SLIPS, especially: [i]Tell me exactly how you spin an airplane from a slip.  Clint[/i]



     



    This is how it is done according to FAA-H-8083-3 "AIRPLANE FLYING HANDBOOK" page 5-11:



    quote: [i]A spin is when the airplane's wing exceeds the angle of attack (stall) with a side slip or yaw acting on the airplane at, or beyond the actual stall.  During this uncoordinated maneuver, a pilot may not be aware that a critical angle of attack has been  exceeded until the airplane yaws out of control toward the lowering wing. If stall recovery is not initiated immediately, the airplane may enter a spin.[/i]



        [i]If this stall occurs while the airplane is in a slipping or skidding turn, this can result in a spin entry and rotation in the direction that the rudder is being applied, regardless of which wingtip is raised.[/i] end quote.



     



    The difference  between a skid and a slip is shown on page 4-5 of this same book. It shows a slip as a maneuver with one wing low and the ball on the opposite side of the T & B from the  low wing whereas a slip occurs with the ball on the same side as the low wing or the wings level. i.e left wing down ball left is slip wings level ball right is slip, left wing down ball right is a skid.



     



    To answer the original question you can spin any time you have a hard over rudder AND A STALL. Skids and slips are safe and are demonstration required maneuvers AS LONG AS THERE IS NO STALL. (HIGH SPEED OR LOW SPEED)(UNACCELERATED OR  ACCELERATED).

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:03 pm Post subject: Slips and all the rest.

I will agree that you can spin from a slip but.  The origional comments were on stall spin accidents resulting in serious injury, but most likely death. 

  

When slipping to lose altitude which is near the ground and in the pattern you have a low wing. As the FAA AIRPLANE FLYING HANDBOOK says  

"If this stall occurs while the airplane is in a slipping or skidding turn, this can result in a spin entry and rotation in the direction that the rudder is being applied, regardless of which wingtip is raised." 

  

This tells me that If I have a steep wing down attitude in a slip to a landing the lower wing will have to go over the top as you are applying top rudder.  This would get your attention if it could happen. 

  

Quote from Stalls Spins and Safety by Sammy Mason pp 43.   

"SLIPPING AWAY THE STALL 

One of the most difficult maneuvers from which to enter a stall or spin is during a slip, particulrly a severe slip.  Not that a stall cannot be entered if there is enough elevator authority, it most certainly can.  But during a true wing-down slip, stalling is more difficult." 

  

This is my point.  Wing down slips for landings are pretty safe.   Clint



  	  Quote: 	
		      REGARDINGSKIDS AND SLIPS, especially: Tell me exactly how you spin an airplane from a slip.  Clint

  

 This is how it is done according to FAA-H-8083-3 "AIRPLANE FLYING HANDBOOK" page 5-11:

 quote: A spin is when the airplane's wing exceeds the angle of attack (stall) with a side slip or yaw acting on the airplane at, or beyond the actual stall.  During this uncoordinated maneuver, a pilot may not be aware that a critical angle of attack has been exceeded until the airplane yaws out of control toward the lowering wing. If stall recovery is not initiated immediately, the airplane may enter a spin.

     If this stall occurs while the airplane is in a slipping or skidding turn, this can result in a spin entry and rotation in the direction that the rudder is being applied, regardless of which wingtip is raised. end quote.

  

 The difference between a skid and a slip is shown on page 4-5 of this same book. It shows a slip as a maneuver with one wing low and the ball on the opposite side of the T & B from the  low wing whereas a slip occurs with the ball on the same side as the low wing or the wings level. i.e left wing down ball left is slip wings level ball right is slip, left wing down ball right is a skid.

  

 To answer the original question you can spin any time you have a hard over rudder AND A STALL. Skids and slips are safe and are demonstration required maneuvers AS LONG AS THERE IS NO STALL. (HIGH SPEED OR LOW SPEED)(UNACCELERATED OR ACCELERATED).

AMuller589(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:33 pm Post subject: Slips and all the rest.

any kind of slip is safe. Any kind of skid is safe. BUT NONE ARE SAFE IN A0 STALL AT LOW ALTITUDE.

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:37 pm Post subject: Slips and all the rest.

I think I need a little help here.



When I slip to landing, I usually give full right rudder and drop the left 

wing to control heading, using elevator to control airspeed.  If I 

transition from my typical slip to a skidding turn, I will have to have to 

go from full right rudder, through neutral rudder to an uncoodinated left 

rudder (assuming flying left traffic).  I would think this would be a real 

rarity if not unheard of with any pilot with more than a few hours.  My 

guess is that when Clint described his turns to final, slipping all the way 

down, he is using a left slip in left traffic and would use a right slip in 

right traffic - just a guess.



Lowell

---

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