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wnorth(at)sdccd.edu
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 Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject: TBM |
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Ed,
not a bad idea, ie. using what is called a "ramp" frequency. This is done at
some airshows like NWEAA in Arlington. We have used this for many years up
there, but then we only digest about 2000-2500 airplanes.
But Papa taxiway, as well as a few others is not completely visable from the
tower at the south end, and there is so much going on that it would be next
to impossible to radio control on one frequency with one controller. So then
you would have the pilots changing frequencies as they move to each area?
Me thinks that would be a riskier distraction.
Given where the two planes were and where they most likely came from, the RV
probably taxied out in front of the TBM while it was already well
established on Papa. This could have happened while the TBM pilot was
looking out his left side and he never saw the RV come out.
The fact that the RV pilot didn't see the TBM when he pulled out is the only
mistake I can see that was made in this event. What I have not yet been
clearly led to understand is did the RV pilot pull onto Papa on his own or
was he really marshalled.
If he was marshalled then, at least when I run intersections, the aircraft
on the taxiway gets stopped or slowed by hand and eye contact and the new
aircraft is entered into the flow. It's very obvious to all, "if I have the
time to make it so," that a new plane has been put on the taxiway.
One problem arises because our parking rows come out close to the taxiway,
where someone on the end could just start up and pull out (AKA it happens a
lot). If that happens than the accident is ripe to happen.(They are not
supposed to do this without an escort)
The other problem is when an intesection gets over congested. If any
landings are happening you have to keep part of it clear so the runway
remains free of stopped aircraft. As well you may be putting airplanes into
line from several different taxiways, of which most won't be going to the
same locations once they pass you.
So, were I to investigate this I would be asking how the RV got onto Papa
without the TBM being aware of it.
Jeff, did anyone ever find out where the RV came from, or if he just pulled
onto the taxiway without a marshaller either at an intesection or from the
grass? This isn't to single out a marshaller but rather to identify if there
even was one and if so what led to them escorting the RV on in a way that
didn't leave the TBM aware of it. In those details there might be some
tweeks that would promote more safety.
But even then, there's a manpower issue in that when I am working Papa 3
intersection I have airplanes coming at me from any one of 6 different
directions all at the same time. Plus, the runway must stay clear because
not only are planes landing and not pulling into the grass but rather
lagging down to the taxiway and they are being shot across from the east
runway 36/18 by the FAA pink shirts.
So if I push three of those landers/crossers then spin in one coming north
in the ditch taxiway and then a few from either direction of Papa I'm
generally not going to be able to ensure who is aware of what. And I'm not
sure a radio would help that any, particularly given the fact that the
landing or crossing aircraft would not be on "ramp" frequency yet. And I'm
already on a non-acft band radio talking to the other intersections letting
them know if something odd coming their way needs their attention.
As well both Papa two and Papa one are even more confusing to work. As I
remember the accident occured between the two just north of Papa two.
I stand my ground that this accident was just that, an accident, freaky and
somewhat unavoidable when placed upon the scales against Lady Luck's evil
sister.
Finally I would like to comment about one comment made in regards to a
collsion between an airliner and a cherokee. Not sure if that was
referencing the PSA accident in San Diego which is why the TCAs(now class B)
were formed. It was actually a 727 that took a hard right turn to a short
approrach while being handed off from NAS Miramar Approach to San Diego
Lindbergh approach/tower. It ran into a Cessna(182 if I remember right) on
an IFR missed approach that, in the 727's turn had gone completely across
the 27's windows and none of the four pilots in that cockpit ever saw it.
(Two were hopping a ride home and were standing in the back gangway when it
impacted) In the end they never knew what really went wrong.
The rapid hand off from one agency to another is why the two airplanes were
being controlled by differing controllers while in the same airspace until
the last second which is what led to joining all complex airspaces into
common units called TCAs.
In this case the only real change was a big one, but that change probably
did significantly reduce risks for those airports, so it was a good thing.
The bottom line is we come to Oshkosh because of all the airplanes but
because of all the airplanes the potential for a trajedy increases. These
are juxtopposed forces that in this case won't be fixed by anything other
than more awareness and diligence.
And if you think that's bizarre, try explaining to me why during one airshow
we had a yellow cub going down our Papa ditch taxiway being chased by a guy
in a green toga carrying a bucket full of gravel.
Weird stuff happens at Oshkosh... fortunately most of it isn't quite so
tragic.
W
PS, I doubt EAA will be sued, they carry very good insurance for this event
and in most cases establishing fault is avoided because it just raises an
overall cost dramatically that will be borne by the insurance industry one
way or another anyways. JT may correct me if I'm wrong but lawsuits don't do
much for anybody's bottom line these days.
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gert.v(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:52 pm Post subject: TBM |
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|
The RV came out of RV land down Papa-1, taxiing east, then took a right
turn at the Northpoint intersection, (north end of 18-36 at the
warbird-trimotor crossroads), onto Papa, taxiing south to a center point
departure to the south, center point is the Tower road intersection with
Papa, the displaced 18 threshold.
When the RV took the right turn at Northpoint, the TBM was still in
warbird land. not a factor. That's why the rv pilot never knew the TBM
was behind him, The TBM simply was not there when he taxied by. So no
error on anybody's side here. The RV was escorted down Papa-1 as Papa-1
is narrow, fenced and partially open to public. At Northpoint, turning
onto Papa, the RV was flagged south. Papa is considerable wider and not
open to public, so the escort was terminated at Northpoint as is
customary. For those who were in RV land and/or homebuild camping and
seen Papa-1, we employ quite a few folks just to escort planes in and
out on just that short stretch of Papa-1.
likewise, when the TBM taxied past northpoint, the RV was far enough
ahead not to be an immediate taxi issue for the TBM. This was NOT a case
were the RV was on the side of Papa and was flagged or pulled right in
front of the TBM.
So now u know how the RV and the TBM came on Papa, without seeing each
other.
Wheeler North wrote:
| Quote: |
Ed,
not a bad idea, ie. using what is called a "ramp" frequency. This is done at
some airshows like NWEAA in Arlington. We have used this for many years up
there, but then we only digest about 2000-2500 airplanes.
But Papa taxiway, as well as a few others is not completely visable from the
tower at the south end, and there is so much going on that it would be next
to impossible to radio control on one frequency with one controller. So then
you would have the pilots changing frequencies as they move to each area?
Me thinks that would be a riskier distraction.
Given where the two planes were and where they most likely came from, the RV
probably taxied out in front of the TBM while it was already well
established on Papa. This could have happened while the TBM pilot was
looking out his left side and he never saw the RV come out.
The fact that the RV pilot didn't see the TBM when he pulled out is the only
mistake I can see that was made in this event. What I have not yet been
clearly led to understand is did the RV pilot pull onto Papa on his own or
was he really marshalled.
If he was marshalled then, at least when I run intersections, the aircraft
on the taxiway gets stopped or slowed by hand and eye contact and the new
aircraft is entered into the flow. It's very obvious to all, "if I have the
time to make it so," that a new plane has been put on the taxiway.
One problem arises because our parking rows come out close to the taxiway,
where someone on the end could just start up and pull out (AKA it happens a
lot). If that happens than the accident is ripe to happen.(They are not
supposed to do this without an escort)
The other problem is when an intesection gets over congested. If any
landings are happening you have to keep part of it clear so the runway
remains free of stopped aircraft. As well you may be putting airplanes into
line from several different taxiways, of which most won't be going to the
same locations once they pass you.
So, were I to investigate this I would be asking how the RV got onto Papa
without the TBM being aware of it.
Jeff, did anyone ever find out where the RV came from, or if he just pulled
onto the taxiway without a marshaller either at an intesection or from the
grass? This isn't to single out a marshaller but rather to identify if there
even was one and if so what led to them escorting the RV on in a way that
didn't leave the TBM aware of it. In those details there might be some
tweeks that would promote more safety.
But even then, there's a manpower issue in that when I am working Papa 3
intersection I have airplanes coming at me from any one of 6 different
directions all at the same time. Plus, the runway must stay clear because
not only are planes landing and not pulling into the grass but rather
lagging down to the taxiway and they are being shot across from the east
runway 36/18 by the FAA pink shirts.
So if I push three of those landers/crossers then spin in one coming north
in the ditch taxiway and then a few from either direction of Papa I'm
generally not going to be able to ensure who is aware of what. And I'm not
sure a radio would help that any, particularly given the fact that the
landing or crossing aircraft would not be on "ramp" frequency yet. And I'm
already on a non-acft band radio talking to the other intersections letting
them know if something odd coming their way needs their attention.
As well both Papa two and Papa one are even more confusing to work. As I
remember the accident occured between the two just north of Papa two.
I stand my ground that this accident was just that, an accident, freaky and
somewhat unavoidable when placed upon the scales against Lady Luck's evil
sister.
Finally I would like to comment about one comment made in regards to a
collsion between an airliner and a cherokee. Not sure if that was
referencing the PSA accident in San Diego which is why the TCAs(now class B)
were formed. It was actually a 727 that took a hard right turn to a short
approrach while being handed off from NAS Miramar Approach to San Diego
Lindbergh approach/tower. It ran into a Cessna(182 if I remember right) on
an IFR missed approach that, in the 727's turn had gone completely across
the 27's windows and none of the four pilots in that cockpit ever saw it.
(Two were hopping a ride home and were standing in the back gangway when it
impacted) In the end they never knew what really went wrong.
The rapid hand off from one agency to another is why the two airplanes were
being controlled by differing controllers while in the same airspace until
the last second which is what led to joining all complex airspaces into
common units called TCAs.
In this case the only real change was a big one, but that change probably
did significantly reduce risks for those airports, so it was a good thing.
The bottom line is we come to Oshkosh because of all the airplanes but
because of all the airplanes the potential for a trajedy increases. These
are juxtopposed forces that in this case won't be fixed by anything other
than more awareness and diligence.
And if you think that's bizarre, try explaining to me why during one airshow
we had a yellow cub going down our Papa ditch taxiway being chased by a guy
in a green toga carrying a bucket full of gravel.
Weird stuff happens at Oshkosh... fortunately most of it isn't quite so
tragic.
W
PS, I doubt EAA will be sued, they carry very good insurance for this event
and in most cases establishing fault is avoided because it just raises an
overall cost dramatically that will be borne by the insurance industry one
way or another anyways. JT may correct me if I'm wrong but lawsuits don't do
much for anybody's bottom line these days.
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wnorth(at)sdccd.edu
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:47 am Post subject: TBM |
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Thanks Gert,
It sounds like the TBM just missed seeing the smaller plane in the horizon
of stuff.
I might be painting my rudder day glo orange just because...
It also sounds like there was initially a large gap between the TBM and the
rest of the traffic when it first approached the north end of Papa which may
have also led to him not identifying which was the next in line.
The bottom line there is that if he was following the wrong plane and didn't
know about the RV than nothing outside like walkers or radios could have
fixed that as they would not know that he didn't know until he ran into it.
Which is pretty much what happens in most mid air collisions ie neither
pilot has identified the other's presence and relative location until it's
too late.
As has already been said, a lot of S/A and a little prayer... AKA head on a
swivel at all times on any airport.
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