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Ethanol and wing tanks

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Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:38 pm Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks

I know, I know, we have already discussed that many times but on the 

Jabiru list, there is a Bill Evans who writes the following:



"The fuel tank problem can be solved. The airlines and Military use a

Thiokol Rubber sealant generally known as PRC."



Then later,



"I can buy PRC here from the local aircraft service and maintenance

shops. I believe it is manufactured by Pro-Seal now. You might search on

the part number PRC-1422 A2 The A is the thin stuff and the 2 is the pot

life. Full cure is probably 8 hours at 70F."



Just to let you know, guys. I don't know the first thing about that 

product, I am only the go-between, the messenger, the informant, the 

spy, the turncoat, the ... ok, I'll shut up! 



Cheers,

Michel

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:54 pm Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks

Michel,



My only thought on that is that the military and airlines do not use alcohol 

containing fuels, but jet-(something).  I'm pretty sure I wouldn,t want to 

be the Beta tester for the group using alcohol containing mo-gas.  I have 

already sloshed one completed wing tank and don't want to do it again or 

make that twice if the Thiakol material doesn't work.



' though, I did a quick search on Google and found that there is a BD-4 

thread recommending the material in the metal wing conversion.  I don't know 

which fuel they use.



Lowell

---

markrmiller(at)cableone.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:44 am Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks

Michel

---

shilocom(at)mcmsys.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:21 am Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks

I just checked with PRC - Desoto who manufactures PR-1005-L and they didn't

see any problem with it's resistance to Ethanol.  I have used it to slosh

some steel diesel fuel tanks and plan to slosh my fiberglass kit tanks with

it.  I'll first have to see if they have any Kreeme in them and get it out.

Bob U.



---

aeromer(at)ix.netcom.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:48 pm Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks

I have posted this in the past.  I had a bad experience several ago whin I put autofuel in my KF-Classic 4, flew for an hour or more then put it in the hangar for a couple of weeks.  When I returned from a business trip I went out to the hangar (at a public use airport) and discovered fuel dripping out the tail and beyond the hangar.  All of the militar spec hoses had melted and were leaking!  I have since replaced all of the mil spec hoses with sae hoses and have had no more problems.  Many states are now mandating ethnol to replace MBTE.  Be careful!  KF-2KM



--

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:27 am Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks

PRC also used to seal the wet wings of several larger planes, not to mention

the seams of floats as they are being built.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:44 am Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks

I'm another one who hates to keep harping on the dangers of ethanol in

fibreglass tanks.  The worst part of the whole deal is that on this

continent ethanol is neither green or economical unless you can rate it in

votes per gallon.



Thee is a fellow flying an Avid on the avid group who was flying in

California where they have 10% ethanol.  He said he didn't have any problems

but he was premixing his fuel.  Recently he swapped out his trusty R582 for

a brand spankin' new Jab 2200.  He is using a bit of "Top Lube" premixed

into his tanks with good results so far.  



There is a bit of a problem with premixing.  Apparently it lowers octane

rating of the fuel.



BTW the only good thing about ethanol is it does increase the octane rating

of gasoline. (oct110)



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

shilocom(at)mcmsys.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:33 am Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks

<<<<There is a bit of a problem with premixing.  Apparently it lowers octane

rating of the fuel>>>

There are many ways to calculate "octane", but if you do it the same way

autogas and 100LL are done, Ethanol is over 100 octane.   It does other

things, but it doesn't lower the octane.  Pure Ethanol in Mo. is currently

in the $2.20 range.  85% ethanol is around $2.50,,,go figure that and 87

octane autogas is a few cents either side of $3.00.  What are you paying for

you're auto gas or 100LL in your state.  You can check with So. Dakota U to

verify the above.  They gave the sminar at OSH and it's on their web

site.Bob U.



---

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:36 am Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks

Other than the issue of fuel system compatibility, the alk does have 

higher octane, but when used in a low compression engine that octane 

goes to waste and the engine produces less horsepower that it would 

if run on gas. This is true with all ratios of Alky/gas - the octane 

goes up. An alky engine properly designed will have more horsepower 

that an optimally tuned gas engine due to higher octane. However the 

alky engine will deliver less fuel economy since the energy per 

gallon is less. Of course e85 is pretty rare outside of the mid 

states. At the 10% level it does not matter much, it just screws up 

the systems not designed for the stuff.

Don't forget that for several years the Kitfox has been sold with 

Alky compatible wing tanks using the proper epoxy resin. Which is the 

same resin used in the gas station tanks. To make your Kitfox live 

with alky and not have to use the sloshing liquids. Just buy the new 

tanks. I am sure John McBean sells them.



Maybe Bob Unternaehrer was talking about premix of the 50:1 2 stroke 

oil. which probably does reduce the fuel performance since it is not 

generally known as an engine fuel.

Regards, Paul

======================



At 12:41 PM 8/15/2006, you wrote:

[quote]



<<<<There is a bit of a problem with premixing.  Apparently it lowers octane

rating of the fuel>>>

There are many ways to calculate "octane", but if you do it the same way

autogas and 100LL are done, Ethanol is over 100 octane.   It does other

things, but it doesn't lower the octane.  Pure Ethanol in Mo. is currently

in the $2.20 range.  85% ethanol is around $2.50,,,go figure that and 87

octane autogas is a few cents either side of $3.00.  What are you paying for

you're auto gas or 100LL in your state.  You can check with So. Dakota U to

verify the above.  They gave the sminar at OSH and it's on their web

site.Bob U.



---

shilocom(at)mcmsys.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:39 pm Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks

<<<<the alk does have

higher octane, but when used in a low compression engine that octane

goes to waste>>>



NOT so.  If the Low compression engine is tuned for Ethanol ...aka ALK...and

has the proper fuel delivery system adjusted for alk, the the engine will

put out at least as many ponys and maybe a few more.



<<However the

 	  Quote: 	
		   alky engine will deliver less fuel economy since the energy per

 gallon is less.>>>


	


Correct here.  There isn't much economical advantage to Ethenol unless you

are a "blender" and can purchase in bulk, as we do, and get the 51c gov't

kickback.  As you said...."MORE bang for the Vote" I believe it was.



<<Don't forget that for several years the Kitfox has been sold with

 	  Quote: 	
		   Alky compatible wing tanks using the proper epoxy resin>>


	


The switch was done in 1992 and Skystar was never able to give me a serial

number break for the change.  Mine is a 1992 Model.  I plan on replacing the

Left hand, I beleive it is,, 6 gal tank to hold more fuel to bring the

aircraft range up to where it would be using 100LL .  Even then some of the

newer resin tanks were till pourus and seeped.  I've contacted Jim and he

hasn't got back to me as to the Material they are furnishing now.  Seems

like someone on the list said once that there were after market ABS tanks

that worked good, but don't no who it was or who the supplier was.



 Bob U



---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks

I think you will find the gas station tanks are not epoxy.  But HDPE.

Sloshing compounds seem to eventually come off....  Better to not use

ethanol fuel or replace the tank with a pre-moulded HDPE like the five

gallon "Jerry" cans are made of.



I can't wait until I can put all this behind me.....  Someone please design

a nice 70-80 hp turbo diesel!  



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:27 pm Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks

I think you misunderstood me.  Ethanol is approximately 110 octane so it

will raise the octane level of most gas.  

Premixing oil in the gas, as some two strokers do, will lower the octane

rating of the fuel.  Oil injection systems allow higher octane fuel to enter

the cylinders but you might have your fuel tanks disintegrate if there is

ethanol in your gas.  



I am extremely lucky in that I live in Newfoundland and ethanol hasn't

ventured this far north yet.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:01 pm Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks

My kit left SkyStar in Dec 96, does that mean I have the good tanks? John A, 

Series 5



From:  "Bob Unternaehrer" <shilocom(at)mcmsys.com>

Reply-To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To:  <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject:  Re: Ethanol and wing tanks

Date:  Tue, 15 Aug 2006 16:48:23 -0500




<<<<the alk does have

higher octane, but when used in a low compression engine that octane

goes to waste>>>



NOT so.  If the Low compression engine is tuned for Ethanol ...aka ALK...and

has the proper fuel delivery system adjusted for alk, the the engine will

put out at least as many ponys and maybe a few more.



<<However the

 	  Quote: 	
		  alky engine will deliver less fuel economy since the energy per

gallon is less.>>>


	


Correct here.  There isn't much economical advantage to Ethenol unless you

are a "blender" and can purchase in bulk, as we do, and get the 51c gov't

kickback.  As you said...."MORE bang for the Vote" I believe it was.



<<Don't forget that for several years the Kitfox has been sold with

 	  Quote: 	
		  Alky compatible wing tanks using the proper epoxy resin>>


	


The switch was done in 1992 and Skystar was never able to give me a serial

number break for the change.  Mine is a 1992 Model.  I plan on replacing the

Left hand, I beleive it is,, 6 gal tank to hold more fuel to bring the

aircraft range up to where it would be using 100LL .  Even then some of the

newer resin tanks were till pourus and seeped.  I've contacted Jim and he

hasn't got back to me as to the Material they are furnishing now.  Seems

like someone on the list said once that there were after market ABS tanks

that worked good, but don't no who it was or who the supplier was.



  Bob U



---

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:26 pm Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks

I don't know about up there, but down here the gas station tanks are vinyl 

ester resin.  And this is the resin used in the newer Skystar tanks.



Lowell

---

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:27 am Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks

Of course VW has sold a 1.9L 90 - 100Hp turbo diesel for many years. 

I have no idea about its weight, but it is a pretty compact unit. One 

can chip the engine for even more power. Probably its use in a plane 

would not include the intercooler and the power would be in the range 

you want and it would be somewhat lighter.

Have you looked at the rotary diesel in that power range? Probably 

lighter than the VW? They have been showing it a Osh for several 

years. I have no idea about its status. Having said that there was a 

Kitfox with a rotary in it several years back at Osh. Don't know if 

it was the diesel?



The HDPE tank design was completed before the Skystar demise. I hope 

John Mc et al can resurrect the design and get it into production. 

Time will tell.

Paul

================

At 08:13 PM 8/15/2006, you wrote:

[quote]



I think you will find the gas station tanks are not epoxy.  But HDPE.

Sloshing compounds seem to eventually come off....  Better to not use

ethanol fuel or replace the tank with a pre-moulded HDPE like the five

gallon "Jerry" cans are made of.



I can't wait until I can put all this behind me.....  Someone please design

a nice 70-80 hp turbo diesel!



Noel



 > --

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:27 am Post subject: Ethanol and wing tanks

Yup, not epoxy, but Atlac

PW

==============

At 09:26 PM 8/15/2006, you wrote:

[quote]



I don't know about up there, but down here the gas station tanks are 

vinyl ester resin.  And this is the resin used in the newer Skystar tanks.



Lowell

---

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