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why tailwheel

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spudnuts

Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 15

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:08 pm Post subject: why tailwheel

I've gone from a tri-gear 2002 Symphony to a Cessna 140 that I'm guessing is older than me (4.  Its freaking me out a little, darn that little sucker is squirrelly. I now have 2 hrs in the 140 and finally did a sorta ok takeoff and got one of my 5 landings (my first grass strip) uh, reasonable, but man that tail is twitchy!  (And man do I hate a steering wheel)



Why is it again that everyone builds their kitfoxes with tailwheels?  I'm sorry, but all it seems to me is that it only makes landings and takeoffs harder, what is the utility of tailwheel?  Is it only for unimproved strips and grass? Why is it better?  Performance?  If this is some sort of blasphemy I speak- forgive me

john(at)leptron.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:04 pm Post subject: why tailwheel

You will soon forget the pain of tail wheels, they are faster and more

stable in the air, you can carry more snacks and a spare tire . They will

always keep you alert but a castering nose is just as bad. 



John Oakley





I've gone from a tri-gear 2002 Symphony to a Cessna 140 that I'm guessing is

older than me (4.  Its freaking me out a little, darn that little sucker

is squirrelly. I now have 2 hrs in the 140 and finally did a sorta ok

takeoff and got one of my 5 landings (my first grass strip) uh, reasonable,

but man that tail is twitchy!  (And man do I hate a steering wheel)



Why is it again that everyone builds their kitfoxes with tailwheels?  I'm

sorry, but all it seems to me is that it only makes landings and takeoffs

harder, what is the utility of tailwheel?  Is it only for unimproved strips

and grass? Why is it better?  Performance?  If this is some sort of

blasphemy I speak- forgive me

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:22 pm Post subject: why tailwheel

This year you will hate it.  Next year you will love

it.  Like driving your first stick shift with a clutch

after only automatics.  Be patient....



Kurt S.



--- spudnuts <martan(at)cstone.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I've gone from a tri-gear 2002 Symphony to a Cessna

 140 that I'm guessing is older than me (4.  Its

 freaking me out a little, darn that little sucker is

 squirrelly. I now have 2 hrs in the 140 and finally

 did a sorta ok takeoff and got one of my 5 landings

 (my first grass strip) uh, reasonable, but man that

 tail is twitchy!  (And man do I hate a steering

 wheel)

 

 Why is it again that everyone builds their kitfoxes

 with tailwheels?  I'm sorry, but all it seems to me

 is that it only makes landings and takeoffs harder,

 what is the utility of tailwheel?  Is it only for

 unimproved strips and grass? Why is it better? 

 Performance?  If this is some sort of blasphemy I

 speak- forgive me 


	


__________________________________________________

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:16 am Post subject: why tailwheel

Tricycle versus tail wheel issues are definitely religious!  That said...



John sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  [A tail wheel] will always keep you alert but a castering nose is just as bad.


	


That's not true, John.  With the main gear behind the aircraft's 

center of mass, even with a castering nose wheel the plane has 

positive longitudinal stability on the ground.  A tail dragger is 

never directionally stable on the ground.



Here are some of the reasons I like tricycle gear:



   1. Aircraft is directionally stable on the ground (hard to

      ground loop)

   2. The cabin is level for loading and boarding

   3. On the ground, fuel & oil tanks are level for quantity checks

   4. Preflight is easier because the nose is low and the tail is

      up off the ground

   5. Over the nose visibility is superior on the ground (no S turns!)

   6. Wing is at a zero-lift angle of attack when rolling out

      after landing, taxiing, and when tied down

   7. You don't need separate taxi and landing lights

   8. Full braking is available during the landing roll-out (no

      flipping or prop strikes)

   9. Folding the wings is easier because they aren't trying to

      swing aft all the time



These are every day advantages, not something that might come into 

play during an off-field landing.  Phil Laker took his nose wheel 

Kitfox Vixen to Alaska with a group tail dragger 'foxes and landed at 

every single spot that the others did with no difficulty.



Mike G.

N728KF

n981ms(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:59 am Post subject: why tailwheel

For me the tail wheel choice was about 3 things.  1.  Asthetics.  To me just about any airplane with a prop just looks or would look better with a tail wheel.  2.  An IO240 on the nose is heavy.  The nose wheel leg on the Fox just looks a light to my nonengineer eyes.  Besides a TW puts the 3rd wheel weight behind the CG.  3.  Maybe a little of the macho thing.

   

  Maxwell  S6/TW/IO240



spudnuts <martan(at)cstone.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "spudnuts" 



I've gone from a tri-gear 2002 Symphony to a Cessna 140 that I'm guessing is older than me (4. Its freaking me out a little, darn that little sucker is squirrelly. I now have 2 hrs in the 140 and finally did a sorta ok takeoff and got one of my 5 landings (my first [quote][b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:55 am Post subject: why tailwheel

You missed the ability of a conventional gear to be installed with bigger

tires offering more prop/ground clearance and the possibility of shorter

landing roll out.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

mike
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:16 am Post subject: Re: why tailwheel

Yup! your right, why such the big deal on the tail wheel preference.  I don't understand it either.  I have the fox with the rear wheel.  It is squarly.  But after much PRACTICE you can get it pretty good.  My landing last night was that way, I had to tell my wife we were down, I did a perfect wheel landing and the tail came down soooo nice I said, I wheel landed and the rear wheel come down, that wasn't a three point.  All she could say was WOW!   



But, back to your response.  Why the tail wheel preference.  I don't know.  But I do know, my rv7 will have a nose gear, so I guess I'm building an RV7A.  Why?  Like the one response for tri gear.  Better vis, is no. one with me, second is the stable landing with the gear behind the CG, and don't forget those nasty taxi lights that stick up about a foot and a half at the airports, I see them all the time(or I should say I don't see them), and when there on your right side, it's get lucky and not hit them time, or be lucky like me and have a wife that loves to fly and sees them before I ever will.



My feeling is with my new plane, I will have a lot of money in the project, why, why, put a wheel in the back and risk all that hard work.  Plus one more advantage, the insurance will be less.



I don't plan on taking the RV into any off fields, that will be for the kitfox to enjoy.  So I guess I'll have the best of both words.  One last thing, the airplane is for ME, not some other big headed pilot that thinks everybody should have a plane like his.

mike
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:26 am Post subject: Re: why tailwheel

Here is one more thought against tail wheel airplanes.  If you get in an accident with a tail wheel and turn in an NTSB report, guess what, you WILL get a letter from the friends at the FAA wanting you to take a check ride in...   A TAIL WHEEL AIRPLANE, and guess what, NOBODY will let you use their plane to do a check ride in, and try to rent one of these aircraft, no joy on that either.  Why is it that all rentable airplanes are tri gear???  Sure some of you might come up with places that have tail planes to rent, but it's not something that's available very easily, if at all.

spudnuts

Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 15

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:13 am Post subject: Re: why tailwheel

Well, since I'm getting my BFR in conjunction with my tailwheel lessons, I do plan on finishing up and getting the endorsement.  My CFI pointed out that I really only have 1.5 hrs in the air and only about 4 landings where I did 'most' of the work so I shouldn't be so hard on myself.



But aside from the rough field and the 'macho pilot' thing, I don't see much going for the tailwheel.  I personally think that trigear blue and white kitfox on the kitfoxaircraft.com site is fantastic looking and thats what I would get if I could get exactly what I wanted.  Even down to the paint scheme.



I can see I'm probably going to have to build one if I want one like that.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:21 pm Post subject: why tailwheel

Because most pilots don't know how to fly a tailwheel? And because most 

pilots learned on trikes (nosegear)? And trikes are easier for people 

to learn on, so give 'em the easy way out? Why did we all learn to 

first ride a tricycle, then a bicycle? Because it was easier. My 

instructor keeps telling me that all I did in flight school was learn 

to have lazy feet. What I learned at the local flight center was that 

the insurance companies drive the general aircraft industry, and the 

records show that accident rates went down when trikes came out, so the 

insurance companies dictated that schools shall use trikes, or not be 

insured. It's like anything else, the masses rule.



I'm just as rookie pilot with about 60 solo hours in one plane...a 

taildragger, so I may know not of which I speak...



Lynn



On Friday, August 18, 2006, at 11:26  AM, kitfoxmike wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   


	


 	  Quote: 	
		     Why is it that all rentable airplanes are tri gear???

 --------

 kitfoxmike

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Richard Rabbers

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 114
Location: Benton Harbor, MI - USA

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: why tailwheel

Not addressing the question but on subject ... here's some impressive to me - tricycle gear .... and more... performance. 



A friend of mine owns a C-182 w/ Peterson Canard Conversion. 

I've not seen the plane but heard more about it yesterday. 

His plane was part of a presentation at Oshkosh a few years ago. 

The design path was originated with a Robinson Wren... then on from there. I'd guess than many of you are familar with the conversion. 

A current model is the 'Bushmaster'. 



Maybe we can open the doors and use our hands for the canards:) 



(2 short videos) 

http://www.260se.com/video.html 

(13 minute video) 

http://www.260se.com/images/program.mov 



This is out of our (my) leauge but impressive in any case.

------------------------------

PS --- I got my tailwheel endorsement at Dodgens Aircraft in Allegan,MI where they rent a Champ. I got my float rating in Cadillac, MI in a super cub.... Northwoods Aviation also offers tailwheel training in Cubs.

_________________
Richard in SW Michigan
Model 1 / 618 - full-lotus floats (restoration)

jose_m_toro(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:11 pm Post subject: why tailwheel

Lynn:

When my father learned to fly 55 years ago, all

trainers where taildraggers.  He had no problem

transitioning to trikes!!!  My opinion is that your

instructor is right, and you must consider yourself

privileged of learning to fly in a taildragger.

Not every trike pilot knows how to handle cross wind

landings.  If you fly taildraggers, you either handle

cross wind, or experience a ground loop.  If you are a

trike pilot, you have the option to force the nose

wheel to the runway to gain directional control.

Are you practicing wheel landings?  In a strong, cross

wind, a tri-point may not be an option.

Nothing wrong with trikes, however, you miss some of

the fun.

José

--- Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

 Because most pilots don't know how to fly a

 tailwheel? And because most 

 pilots learned on trikes (nosegear)? And trikes are

 easier for people 

 to learn on, so give 'em the easy way out? Why did

 we all learn to 

 first ride a tricycle, then a bicycle? Because it

 was easier. My 

 instructor keeps telling me that all I did in flight

 school was learn 

 to have lazy feet. What I learned at the local

 flight center was that 

 the insurance companies drive the general aircraft

 industry, and the 

 records show that accident rates went down when

 trikes came out, so the 

 insurance companies dictated that schools shall use

 trikes, or not be 

 insured. It's like anything else, the masses rule.

 I'm just as rookie pilot with about 60 solo hours in

 one plane...a 

 taildragger, so I may know not of which I speak...

 Lynn

 On Friday, August 18, 2006, at 11:26  AM, kitfoxmike

 wrote:

 > 

 <kitfoxmike(at)yahoo.com>

 >   Why is it that all rentable airplanes are tri

 gear???

 > --------

 > kitfoxmike

 browse

 Subscriptions page,

 FAQ,

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

 Web Forums!

 Admin.

__________________________________________________

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:43 pm Post subject: why tailwheel

Guys,

I have followed this thread with great interest. Taildragger pilots 

swear by taildraggers. Macintosh computer users swear by Macintosh. 

Volkswagen car drivers swear by Volkswagen. .... soooo, the grass isn't 

greener on the other side, after all - right? 



Cheers,

Michel - a happy taildragger pilot.



do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

brodg(at)texas.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:07 am Post subject: why tailwheel

Whoa, Michel, that Macintosh/Volkswagen analogy is just..... wrong and my

neighbor's dry grass is just as brown as mine this summer!

Brian

---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:09 am Post subject: why tailwheel

Jose' - (sorry, my computer won't let me put the accent where it 

belongs...I'm on an  eMac...any help, Michel?)



I managed a wheel landing the other day, through some fault of my 

own...just didn't get the tail down as soon as I got close to the 

ground and the wind went away. It rolled along a little ways before I 

realized that it WAS down, and lowered the tail. I think I'll let my 

instructor show me the REAL way to do it though. : )



Lynn

On Friday, August 18, 2006, at 09:11  PM, Jose M. Toro wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <jose_m_toro(at)yahoo.com>



 Lynn:



 When my father learned to fly 55 years ago, all

 trainers where taildraggers.  He had no problem

 transitioning to trikes!!!  My opinion is that your

 instructor is right, and you must consider yourself

 privileged of learning to fly in a taildragger.



 Not every trike pilot knows how to handle cross wind

 landings.  If you fly taildraggers, you either handle

 cross wind, or experience a ground loop.  If you are a

 trike pilot, you have the option to force the nose

 wheel to the runway to gain directional control.



 Are you practicing wheel landings?  In a strong, cross

 wind, a tri-point may not be an option.



 Nothing wrong with trikes, however, you miss some of

 the fun.



 José



 --- Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> wrote:



> 

> <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

> Because most pilots don't know how to fly a

> tailwheel? And because most

> pilots learned on trikes (nosegear)? And trikes are

> easier for people

> to learn on, so give 'em the easy way out? Why did

> we all learn to

> first ride a tricycle, then a bicycle? Because it

> was easier. My

> instructor keeps telling me that all I did in flight

> school was learn

> to have lazy feet. What I learned at the local

> flight center was that

> the insurance companies drive the general aircraft

> industry, and the

> records show that accident rates went down when

> trikes came out, so the

> insurance companies dictated that schools shall use

> trikes, or not be

> insured. It's like anything else, the masses rule.

>

> I'm just as rookie pilot with about 60 solo hours in

> one plane...a

> taildragger, so I may know not of which I speak...

>

> Lynn

>

> On Friday, August 18, 2006, at 11:26  AM, kitfoxmike

> wrote:

>

>> 

> <kitfoxmike(at)yahoo.com>

>

>>   Why is it that all rentable airplanes are tri

> gear???

>> --------

>> kitfoxmike

>

> browse

> Subscriptions page,

> FAQ,

> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

>

> Web Forums!

> Admin.

>

 __________________________________________________

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:24 am Post subject: why tailwheel

My first videotape recorder was a Beta, first brand new car was a 

Corvair, I raced Chrysler Hemi's (the cast iron 392 version...not the 

proven 426 kind) because I hated the Chevy's that were the rage of the 

day, my only two computers have been Macs (learned on a Mac), I live in 

a log cabin, I fly a Jabiru-engined Kitfox because I've seen enough 

Rotax's and RV-X's, and sometimes I make a tailwind landing just to go 

against the flow (NO, just kidding about the t'wind landing). I just 

don't like following the crowd, I guess...well, maybe except for the 

Hemi's....and as far as the grass is concerned, who's got time to look 

at the grass when there's flying weather?



Lynn

do not archive

On Saturday, August 19, 2006, at 07:06  AM, Brian Rodgers wrote:



[quote] 



 Whoa, Michel, that Macintosh/Volkswagen analogy is just..... wrong and 

 my

 neighbor's dry grass is just as brown as mine this summer!

 Brian

 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

kirkhull(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:41 am Post subject: why tailwheel

All of that is true but they do look better



--

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:54 am Post subject: why tailwheel

On Aug 19, 2006, at 2:26 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   ....and as far as the grass is concerned, who's got time to look at 

 the grass when there's flying weather?


	


Simple: If I open the door and I don't see the grass then I must be 

airborne! 



Michel

do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

hflynn46531(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:09 am Post subject: why tailwheel

Lynn 

              You are right. Learning in a nosegear makes you a lazy pilot.The only reason that flight training schools use trigear aircraft is because they are easier to land. Thus less accidents, cheaper insurance. There is nothing wrong with that but if you have the opportunity to take your training in a tailwhheel aircraft do it. I guaratee you it will make you a better pilot. In a tailwheel you learn all about rudder control which is so important in cross wind landings. My son learned in a tail wheel. His instructor would tell him if there's not at least a 10 mile ph + cross wind at the airport don't bother to come over. Unfortunatley he lost access to to the tailwhheel at about 40 hrs. He then flew a 152 trigear. His first comment was that's to easy. It's taking the fun out of flying. Needless to say when my son got his license he could fly an airplane in cross winds that would keep your  average trigear pilot on the ground because cross winds of 15ph+ scared them. My son thinks cross wind and wheel landings is the most fun part of flying and I'm sure it's all because of his learning in a tailwheel aircraft. At least he thinks so. If you can get training in a tailwheel, go for it. I don't think you will ever regret it. Some times the hard way turns out to be the better way! 



Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson 

Because most pilots don't know how to fly a tailwheel? And because most 

pilots learned on trikes (nosegear)? And trikes are easier for people 

to learn on, so give 'em the easy way out? Why did we all learn to 

first ride a tricycle, then a bicycle? Because it was easier. My 

instructor keeps telling Get on board. [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40791/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/handraisers]You're invited[/url] to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta. [quote][b]

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