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Handheld Trancievers
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dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:21 am Post subject: Handheld Trancievers

Last December I purchased one of the Icom A-24 Nav Coms. I had used it several times to monitor frequencies, yet I hadn't used it to transmit until our radio went south on the way back from Oshkosh this year. The receiving (voice)does ok, however, transmitting is a different story. I couldn't raise anyone. I found that towers couldn't receive me until I was direct line of sight and within 2 miles. My $50 walkie talkies beat the heck out of that!

   

   I wasn't impressed with the Nav end of it either. I have tried it on several occasions flying to and from VOR's and if I rated it on a scale of 1-10 I would give it a 2. I certainly couldn't depend on it.... If I did I would end up in Timbuktu.

   

  I sent the radio in to Icom believing that there was a problem with it. I got it back with a note indicating that it checked out fine on the bench and that I should always use a well charged battery...hmmm. Sound advice, that is if I hadn't already tested it with a freshly charged battery. Of course it didn't work any better after I got it back.

   

  So I was wondering if anyone else has tried using this unit with better success?

  Dan B.

  Mesa

  Kitfox IV (building) 314DW

 [quote][b]

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:39 am Post subject: Handheld Trancievers

Yes, but only with an external antenna and  power.  Mine wouldn't work that well in the cockpit using the rubber  duckie only.  Now, it works fine out to at least 15+ miles and the tower  has no problem receiving (I've asked them several times).  I've never even  tried the Nav portion.

  

 Don Smythe 

 [quote]   ---

taildragon(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:14 am Post subject: Handheld Trancievers

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->   

 We use a IC-A22 with internal whip antenna in the Champ (no battery  electrical system) and regularly make calls entering Class Delta from about 10  miles out with no problems. We keep the A22 on the re-charger when it is not  flying so we always go out with a fresh charge.

  

 Roger

 [quote]   ---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:18 pm Post subject: Handheld Trancievers

The problem with using the  "rubber ducky" inside the cockpit of your kit fox is called parasitic  interference.  To try to put it into simple terms this means the the frame  of the aircraft is absorbing some of the output of the transmitter and almost  like judo is using the transmitters own power against itself.   

  

 The one really great thing you  can do for your transmission is to use a tuned antenna.  Get an avionics  tech or a ham who is active on VHF to hook up a "Bird Watt Meter"  between  your transceiver and the connection where your antenna plugs into the  transceiver.  This instrument will tell the teckkie how to set up your  antenna for the best performance.  One thing that can really affect the  range is the size of the ground plane for your antenna.  The ground plane  for air band should be around 47.24" in diameter or a series of 23.6" radials  stretching out from the base of the antenna.  It can be made of just about  any conductive metal and should be grounded via the braid on your antenna  coax.  I think there are even some ground planes that are simply foil  adhered to the inside of aircraft skin ( if the skin isn't metal).  Of  course the frame of the aircraft can also make a very good ground plane  too.

  

 VHF for most intents and  purposes is a line of sight transmission.  There is a formula for the  distance that can be transmitted under normal conditions.  Aircraft tend to  fly over objects so range is pretty good.  But....   If you get  into a deep valley or behind a mountain or some other large obstruction don't  expect your little VHF radio to punch through for you.

  

  

 

Noel [quote]   

   --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:31 pm Post subject: Handheld Trancievers

Wow Noel...that is great information...thanks!  Almost sounds like you know what you are talking about.:>)   It certainly looks like I will need to hook it up to the outside antenna. Since I have your ear, what are your thoughts on placing the comm antenna inside the vertical stab? Some of the guys here in Phx have done that and seem to do fine. Would you expect to see any performance loss doing this? Thanks again and to all who responded.

  Dan B

  Mesa, AZ



Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> wrote:

  [quote]        The problem with using the "rubber ducky" inside the cockpit of your kit fox is called parasitic interference.  To try to put it into simple terms this means the the frame of  the aircraft is absorbing some of the output of the transmitter and almost like judo is using the transmitters own power against itself.  

   

  The one really great thing you can do for your transmission is to use a tuned antenna.  Get an avionics tech or a ham who is active on VHF to hook up a "Bird Watt Meter"  between your transceiver and the connection where your antenna plugs into the transceiver.  This instrument will tell the teckkie how to set up your antenna for the best performance.  One thing that can really affect the range is the size of the ground plane for your antenna.  The ground plane for air band should be around 47.24" in diameter or a series of 23.6" radials stretching out from the base of the antenna.  It can be made of just about any conductive metal and should be grounded via  the braid on your antenna coax.  I think there are even some ground planes that are simply foil adhered to the inside of aircraft skin ( if the skin isn't metal).  Of course the frame of the aircraft can also make a very good ground plane too.

   

  VHF for most intents and purposes is a line of sight transmission.  There is a formula for the distance that can be transmitted under normal conditions.  Aircraft tend to fly over objects so range is pretty good.  But....   If you get into a deep valley or behind a mountain or some other large obstruction don't expect your little VHF radio to punch through for you.

   

   

  Noel

  [quote]  

  --

kirkhull(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:37 pm Post subject: Handheld Trancievers

I use an Icom A4 with a whip antenna in the kitfox  ten miles easy.  An aircraft antenna with a ground plane would be better  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Standley

 Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 12:13 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Handheld Trancievers  

  

       

   

    

We use a IC-A22 with internal whip antenna in the Champ (no battery electrical system) and regularly make calls entering Class Delta from about 10 miles out with no problems. We keep the A22 on the re-charger when it is not flying so we always go out with a fresh charge.  

    

   

    

Roger  

  [quote]    

---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:31 pm Post subject: Handheld Trancievers

There are a lot of aircraft out  there that have the com antennas built into the vertical fins.  most of  them have vertical dipole (Two equal poles set up one opposite the other)  glassed into a composite fin.  In the kit fox the fin has metal frame which  will act exactly as the rubber ducky in the cabin.  The upright parts of  the tail frame will become parasitic elements which can change the pattern of  radiation and no doubt some power absorption.

  

 Stick with a single vertical  monopole in the middle of the back of the plane.  Have it tuned for the  best performance around the middle of the aviation com band.  The K9itfox  isn't a mach 3 fireball, a few inches of antenna won't affect it's flight  envelope significantly

  

 You are right I have more paper  in electronics and avionics than I like to admit.  As a Canadian  Advanced Amateur Radio Operator antenna design and tuning.  Believe it or  not Amateur Radio is where the real learning and experimentation is done.   Amateur pioneered little things like Packet radio ( data routers )  

  

  

 

Noel [quote]   

   --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

jimlc(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:55 pm Post subject: Handheld Trancievers

Regarding handheld radios with rubber duckies, during my more active ham radio days I was using a 2 meter radio and also a business band radio that used an adjoining frequency and as in aircraft when inside of a automobile, the effectiveness of the radios was greatly reduced.  I purchased a magnetic antenna mount with attached antenna cable.  One could attach an antenna of choice via a baronet coupling.  I found that attaching the rubber duckie antenna from the handheld was as good as any much longer antenna and greatly improved the radio performance when set a top the vehicle roof using the magnetic mount.  



 With a aircraft, one could install a baronet compatible receptacle with an appropriate length cable to the inside of the aircraft and then when needed, attach it to the radio.  The small rubber duckie antenna could when need be attached to the mount and would display a small profile for wind resistance.



 Jim Crowder



 At 09:29 PM 8/20/2006, you wrote:

 [quote]There are a lot of aircraft out there that have the com antennas built into the vertical fins.  most of them have vertical dipole (Two equal poles set up one opposite the other) glassed into a composite fin.  In the kit fox the fin has metal frame which will act exactly as the rubber ducky in the cabin.  The upright parts of the tail frame will become parasitic elements which can change the pattern of radiation and no doubt some power absorption.

  

 Stick with a single vertical monopole in the middle of the back of the plane.  Have it tuned for the best performance around the middle of the aviation com band.  The K9itfox isn't a mach 3 fireball, a few inches of antenna won't affect it's flight envelope significantly

  

 You are right I have more paper in electronics and avionics than I like to admit.  As a Canadian Advanced Amateur Radio Operator antenna design and tuning.  Believe it or not Amateur Radio is where the real learning and experimentation is done.  Amateur pioneered little things like Packet radio ( data routers ) 

  

  



 Noel

   --

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:20 am Post subject: Handheld Trancievers

I had one in my IV until I bought and installed the A200 panel-mount 

unit. The A24 worked fine for me, and none of my test pilots for the 40 

hours complained.



Lynn

On Sunday, August 20, 2006, at 09:20  AM, Dan Billingsley wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Last December I purchased one of the Icom A-24 Nav Coms. I had used it 

 several times to monitor frequencies, yet I hadn't used it to transmit 

 until our radio went south on the way back from Oshkosh this year. The 

 receiving (voice)does ok, however, transmitting is a different story. 

 I couldn't raise anyone. I found that towers couldn't receive me until 

 I was direct line of sight and within 2 miles. My $50 walkie talkies 

 beat the heck out of that!

  

  I wasn't impressed with the Nav end of it either. I have tried it on 

 several occasions flying to and from VOR's and if I rated it on a 

 scale of 1-10 I would give it a 2. I certainly couldn't depend on 

 it.... If I did I would end up in Timbuktu.

  

 I sent the radio in to Icom believing that there was a problem with 

 it. I got it back with a note indicating that it checked out fine on 

 the bench and that I should always use a well charged battery...hmmm. 

 Sound advice, that is if I hadn't already tested it with a freshly 

 charged battery. Of course it didn't work any better after I got it 

 back.

  

 So I was wondering if anyone else has tried using this unit with 

 better success?

 Dan B.

 Mesa

 Kitfox IV (building) 314DW

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:39 am Post subject: Handheld Trancievers

Oops, I should have added to my previous comment (about having no 

problems with the A24) that I had an external antenna mounted on the 

'fox.



Lynn

On Sunday, August 20, 2006, at 09:20  AM, Dan Billingsley wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Last December I purchased one of the Icom A-24 Nav Coms. I had used it 

 several times to monitor frequencies, yet I hadn't used it to transmit 

 until our radio went south on the way back from Oshkosh this year. The 

 receiving (voice)does ok, however, transmitting is a different story. 

 I couldn't raise anyone. I found that towers couldn't receive me until 

 I was direct line of sight and within 2 miles. My $50 walkie talkies 

 beat the heck out of that!

  

  I wasn't impressed with the Nav end of it either. I have tried it on 

 several occasions flying to and from VOR's and if I rated it on a 

 scale of 1-10 I would give it a 2. I certainly couldn't depend on 

 it.... If I did I would end up in Timbuktu.

  

 I sent the radio in to Icom believing that there was a problem with 

 it. I got it back with a note indicating that it checked out fine on 

 the bench and that I should always use a well charged battery...hmmm. 

 Sound advice, that is if I hadn't already tested it with a freshly 

 charged battery. Of course it didn't work any better after I got it 

 back.

  

 So I was wondering if anyone else has tried using this unit with 

 better success?

 Dan B.

 Mesa

 Kitfox IV (building) 314DW

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:02 am Post subject: Handheld Trancievers

Another neat idea from a  ham!  I never thought of that because I generally only used the ducks  portable.

  

  

 

Noel [quote]   

   --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:12 am Post subject: Handheld Trancievers

The only problem I've had with my A24 was when my resistor plugs shorted

out.... Don't ask.  The ignition noise was that high on transmit that 2000'

away from the tower antenna they still couldn't copy me.  I could hear them

strength 5.  Luckily the cleared me to leave the zone.



The last time I used the radio, with new plugs amongst other things, I was

strength 5 at 26 miles and 500'asl.  



The VOR is a nice little feature for headings just remember the radials are

true and the compass is magnetic.  I find my radial and then fly the compass

keeping everything on the ground "looking right".  I also carry a GPS but to

be honest I think it takes the fun out of navigation and I tend to fixate on

it a little if it try to navigate by it alone.  It's handy to document the

flight as it records position speed and altitude.



Now if they could add a mode "C" transponder to it....  ;^}



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

wingsdown(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:58 pm Post subject: Handheld Trancievers

I had  one for a back up. Made a little adaptor plate with a bulkhead BNC, small hanger  mount for the radio and a composite flute antenna under the glare shield. Worked  extremely well and also doubled for a VOR since the antenna was a com/nav  antenna. The radio has the switching device built in so no need for any type of  transfer device. Still have the set up if anyone is interested.  

  

 Rick

 [quote]   

   --

jack(at)comconn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:52 pm Post subject: Handheld Trancievers

Oddly- I recently donated my sporty's JD-200 to the local neighborhood around my hangar,

and ended up purchasing an Icom A-24 on Ebay.



I thought I'd been "had"- the system would receive, but not transmit.  

Whenver I attempted to transmit, I'd get a "low battery" indication..

and no-one could hear me. In, or out of the plane.



I stopped by the local ham supply store- and purchased the alkaline battery pack..

no difference.  I, too, happen to be a ham (kc5cyb), and had an Icom VHF 2 meter,

close enough to allow swaps. When I use *that* rubber ducky- all was well*.  

I could now be heard (except the alkaline pack still doesn't work right- 

different problem?), at least for the first hour after a recharge, and then we're 

back to null transmission. My next step is to rig a dipole inside the plane fuselage.

Given it all to do again, I'd buy the big, clunky, functional Sporty's SP-200..

Icom doesn't seem to be what it used to be, when I purchased my IC-2SAT.



$.02

Jack 



KF 1(.5)

N79JW

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:27 pm Post subject: Handheld Trancievers

There is something wrong there.... I'd send the A-24 back for testing.  Mine

works great.



Noel

V01-PL



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:30 pm Post subject: Handheld Trancievers

Oh yes remember to vertical polarize the dipole so you have an omni

directional transmission pattern.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject: Handheld Trancievers

Jack,

  That is quite interesting...same thing going on here. I even stood outside my car in direct line of sight to the tower and they didn't hear transmission. After hearing this I wouldnt give two cents for another one. Thanks for the reply.

  Dan B



Jack L Bell <jack(at)comconn.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jack L Bell 

Oddly- I recently donated my sporty's JD-200 to the local neighborhood around my hangar,

and ended up purchasing an Icom A-24 on Ebay.



I thought I'd been "had"- the system would receive, but not transmit. 

Whenver I attempted to transmit, I'd get a "low battery" indication..

and no-one could hear me. In, or out of the plane.



I stopped by the local ham supply store- and purchased the alkaline battery pack..

no difference. I, [quote][b]

dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:07 pm Post subject: Handheld Trancievers

Noel, I did send mine back and they said it checked out fine on the bench. Same thing going on. Don't make sence.

  Dan B.



Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" 



There is something wrong there.... I'd send the A-24 back for testing. Mine

works great.



Noel

V01-PL



[quote] --

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:17 am Post subject: Handheld Trancievers

That is not normal for any hand  held radio.  Send the radio with the antenna back to Icom I'll bet they'll  do good for you.  The problem could even be in the rubber  duck.

  

  

 

Noel [quote]   

   --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

FLIER(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:24 am Post subject: Handheld Trancievers

I have an A6 and use it all the time in my Nieuport.  

No problem talking to towers from miles away.



ICOM makes great radios.  I agree, send it to them 

and let them fix it.

--- Original Message ---

From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: RE: Handheld Trancievers



 	  Quote: 	
		  That is not normal for any hand held radio.  Send 

the radio with the =
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  antenna

back to Icom I'll bet they'll do good for you.  The 

problem could even =
	


[quote]be in

the rubber duck.

 

 



Noel



--

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