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wgill10(at)comcast.net Guest
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Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:18 am Post subject: Flap switches/relay wiring |
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I�m planning to install a switch for the flaps in the pilot stick grip in addition to the standard panel mounted switch that Van�s supplies. Can I simply hook both switches to the same relay(s)? Any suggestions regarding relay (P/N & source). Thanks in advance for your assistance.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Bill Gill
RV-7 wiring
<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Lee�s Summit, MO
[quote][b]
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nuckollsr(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:57 am Post subject: Flap switches/relay wiring |
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At 01:17 PM 8/22/2006 +0000, you wrote:
Quote: | I'm planning to install a switch for the flaps in the pilot stick grip in
addition to the standard panel mounted switch that Van's supplies. Can I
simply hook both switches to the same relay(s)? Any suggestions regarding
relay (P/N & source). Thanks in advance for your assistance
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You can do this. Wiring is similar to that shown
in . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Trim/Trim5.pdf
where two switches are used to drive a single set of
direction control relays for pitch trim . . . same
thing works for flaps.
Relay can be like the 137357PS in lower left corner
of page at:
http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/catalogs/c263/P202.pdf
This is similar to the B&C S704-1 illustrated in many
of my drawings.
Now, have you considered design philosophy? Flaps like
trim are motor driven surfaces that can have a profound
effect on flight dynamics and in some cases, stresses
that approach structural limits.
Increased complexity of the flap controls that adds
the relatively un-robust and easy-to-hit stick grip
switches would not pass muster with the customers,
managers and regulators I work for.
Flaps are used very sparingly during a flight. Uncontrolled
operation of flaps under certain conditions are a
recipe for a very bad day. I'll suggest that the
simplest wiring with the most robust components
will minimize probability of an unhappy event.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
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FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:02 am Post subject: Flap switches/relay wiring |
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In a message dated 8/22/06 9:21:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
wgill10(at)comcast.net writes:
Quote: | I’m planning to install a switch for the flaps in the pilot stick grip in
addition to the standard panel mounted switch that Van’s supplies. Can I
simply hook both switches to the same relay(s)? Any suggestions regarding
relay (P/N & source). Thanks in advance for your assistance.
Bill Gill
RV-7 wiring
Lee’s Summit, MO
==================
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Bill:
Go for it. Just set the switch up in parallel. BUT! Only ONE switch can be
used at a time.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
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Bruce(at)glasair.org Guest
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Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:16 am Post subject: Flap switches/relay wiring |
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Have you considered what would happen if you or your passenger inadvertently activated the flap switch while as cruse speed? Normally, it's not a good idea to put switches on control sticks that if activated at the wrong time could adversely impact the safety of the aircraft.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
[quote]
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LloydDR(at)wernerco.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:19 am Post subject: Flap switches/relay wiring |
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www.aircraftextras.com has both the relay boards and the air speed switch to cut out the flaps at certain speeds, which is recommended if you are putting flaps on the sticks because of accidental high speed deployment by bumping the stick.
Dan
40269 RV10E (N289DT)
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of wgill10(at)comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 9:17 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Flap switches/relay wiring
I’m planning to install a switch for the flaps in the pilot stick grip in addition to the standard panel mounted switch that Van’s supplies. Can I simply hook both switches to the same relay(s)? Any suggestions regarding relay (P/N & source). Thanks in advance for your assistance.
Bill Gill
RV-7 wiring
Lee’s Summit, MO
[quote]
matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
[b]
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nuckollsr(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:24 am Post subject: Flap switches/relay wiring |
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At 10:01 AM 8/22/2006 -0400, you wrote:
Quote: |
In a message dated 8/22/06 9:21:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
wgill10(at)comcast.net writes:
> I’m planning to install a switch for the flaps in the pilot stick
grip in
> addition to the standard panel mounted switch that Van’s supplies. Can I
> simply hook both switches to the same relay(s)? Any suggestions regarding
> relay (P/N & source). Thanks in advance for your assistance.
>
> Bill Gill
> RV-7 wiring
> Lee’s Summit, MO
==================
Bill:
Go for it. Just set the switch up in parallel. BUT! Only ONE switch can be
used at a time.
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Actually, if wired per my earlier suggestions, operating
both switches at the same to extend/retract flaps will cause the
flaps to continue motion until BOTH switches are released. If
both switches are operated in opposite directions, the motion
simply stops until one switch is released whereupon motion will
happen in response to the switch that is still closed. No damage
will happen due to conflicting commands.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
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wgill10(at)comcast.net Guest
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Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:54 am Post subject: Flap switches/relay wiring |
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Hello Bruce,
The flap switch would only be installed on the pilot's stick grip -- not co-pilot side. Also, the switch will be momentary and mounted on top of the stick making inadvertent activation difficult.
Bill
[quote]-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce(at)glasair.org>
Have you considered what would happen if you or your passenger inadvertently activated the flap switch while as cruse speed? Normally, it's not a good idea to put switches on control sticks that if activated at the wrong time could adversely impact the safety of the aircraft.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
[quote]
--
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dwight(at)openweave.org Guest
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Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:03 am Post subject: Flap switches/relay wiring |
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On Tue Aug 22 09:56:28 2006, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote :
Quote: | [ ... snip ... ]
Increased complexity of the flap controls that adds
the relatively un-robust and easy-to-hit stick grip
switches would not pass muster with the customers,
managers and regulators I work for.
Flaps are used very sparingly during a flight. Uncontrolled
operation of flaps under certain conditions are a
recipe for a very bad day. I'll suggest that the
simplest wiring with the most robust components
will minimize probability of an unhappy event.
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For what its worth ......
I have a friend with an RV-7 who has a flap switch on his stick grip. It
is on top, and he has _twice_ hit it while fiddling with charts/etc. in
cruise. In both cases he caught it before there was a big problem ..... but
he was NOT happy that it happened in either case. His conclusion is that
the design is not a good one, for him at least.
The flap-switch-on-the-stick idea sounded great to me until I heard my
friend's story. I have decided that for me the flap switch is going on the
panel within a convenient distance from the throttle. Still easy to get to
in the pattern (my hand should be near the throttle most the time then anyway)
and less likely to be hit accidentally. YMMV.
-- Dwight
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Bruce(at)glasair.org Guest
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Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:34 am Post subject: Flap switches/relay wiring |
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Well, whatever floats your boat. Good Luck! And be careful.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
[quote]
--
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dwight(at)openweave.org Guest
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Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:47 am Post subject: Flap switches/relay wiring |
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On Tue Aug 22 10:53:49 2006, wgill10(at)comcast.net wrote :
Quote: |
Hello Bruce,
The flap switch would only be installed on the pilot's stick grip -- not
co-pilot side. Also, the switch will be momentary and mounted on top of
the stick making inadvertent activation difficult.
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One followup note ... while I (strongly!) agree that having the flap
switch on the co-pilot's stick would be bad news, I disagree with the
statement that putting it on top of the stick would make inadvertant
activation difficult.
My friend has his flap switch on the top of the stick in his RV-7, and
(as I said before) has accidentally deployed flaps (BRIEFLY, and only
minimally, before he caught the mistake) at cruise speeds. This was due
to messing with chart books while flying and having them bump the little
momentary switch on top of the stick.
Consider my comments only as food for thought and a story that speaks
to the specific issue under debate. In the end you should clearly just
do what you feel would work for you.
-- Dwight
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FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:11 am Post subject: Flap switches/relay wiring |
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In a message dated 8/22/2006 10:20:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bruce(at)glasair.org writes:
Quote: | Have you considered what would happen if you or your passenger inadvertently activated the flap switch while as cruse speed? Normally, it's not a good idea to put switches on control sticks that if activated at the wrong time could adversely impact the safety of the aircraft.
Bruce
www.glasair.org |
====================================
Yup!
A quick Right Cross!
This is preceded by the Co-Pilots Check List:
1 - Don't say anything.
2 - Don't touch anything.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
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FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:20 am Post subject: Flap switches/relay wiring |
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In a message dated 8/22/2006 11:05:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, dwight(at)openweave.org writes:
Quote: | The flap-switch-on-the-stick idea sounded great to me until I heard my
friend's story. I have decided that for me the flap switch is going on the
panel within a convenient distance from the throttle. Still easy to get to
in the pattern (my hand should be near the throttle most the time then anyway)
and less likely to be hit accidentally. YMMV.
-- Dwight |
==================================
Dwight:
Hitting the flap switch is just like hitting the Mic switch. It is something you learn ... NOT TO DO.
None of us were born knowing how to fly, you just have to make a concuss effort. In all cases.
It is like flying:
To go DOWN you push down.
To go UP you pull up.
But what has always confused me is ...
If you keep pulling UP you go DOWN?
Go figure!
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
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Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno Guest
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Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:10 pm Post subject: Flap switches/relay wiring |
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Barry and all
Some builders I know of even went one step farther : they put the flap
switch IN THE PLACE of the trim switch. Thus they ensure consistent
inadvertent operation at the worst possible time, as often as possible
One of them even wrote to a flying magazine, to tell how the aircraft
was dangerous, since his wife retracted the flaps during take-off !
Quote: |
Hitting the flap switch is just like hitting the Mic switch. It is
something you learn ... NOT TO DO.
If you have to learn not to actuate the switch, then it is misplaced. In
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14 years teaching to fly, I never had to teach not to inadvertently
actuate a correctly place flap lever or switch.
You can also put the MP gauge behind the wheel at the bottom of the left
panel, and the rev counter at the far right, like in some certified
ships. Some aircraft builders take pride at confusing pilots.
And yet, human factors and ergonomics have improved since WW I ))
http://contrails.free.fr/instruments_ergo.php
Best regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
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FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:44 pm Post subject: Flap switches/relay wiring |
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In a message dated 8/22/06 5:13:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr writes:
Quote: | If you have to learn not to actuate the switch, then it is misplaced. In
14 years teaching to fly, I never had to teach not to inadvertently
actuate a correctly place flap lever or switch.
You can also put the MP gauge behind the wheel at the bottom of the left
panel, and the rev counter at the far right, like in some certified
ships. Some aircraft builders take pride at confusing pilots.
And yet, human factors and ergonomics have improved since WW I ))
http://contrails.free.fr/instruments_ergo.php
Best regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
===========================
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Gill:
You are right! And to that I would add the problem twin Beech have with the
placement of the Gear switch (saw that accident). And how may of your
students have pulled MIXTURE instead if throttle?
But, I'd bet the fellow did not brief his wife on the Copilot Check List.
Take a look in current military aircraft ... Notice the MANY safety switches?
F-4 use to pickle their entire Su-21 rocket pod because their gloves got
caught on the switch ... Whoops Did I do that!
There was an accident at a local airport ...
Plane - C-150
Pilot - CFI
Passenger - TV Cameraman
The accident happened on take off ... As the plane was climbing out and
luckily the plane did not go past the end of the runway. Lucky only because the end
of the runway was a major 4 lane highway. The passenger moved his camera bag
right on top of the (panel mounted) flap switch ... C-150's don't climb well
with 40 Deg of flaps! All survived, but I'd bet that CFI does not get a job
with a major airline.
This leads to the professor's quote: "The only way to make something idiot
proof, is to remove the idiot."
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
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legacy(at)speedband.com Guest
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Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: Flap switches/relay wiring |
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Aircraft Extras in Ohio ( http://www.aircraftextras.com ) has a system that
will disable your flap switch at whatever speed you want...presumably the
top of the white arc. That way, inadvertent activation of your flap switch
in cruise would do nothing. Inadvertent activation below flap speed would
not be prevented, but would cause no harm either.
I too am going to have a flap switch on my stick, but I'm also going to
install Aircraft Extra's accidental flap deployment protection system.
Jon Hults
Legacy
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nuckollsr(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:46 am Post subject: Flap switches/relay wiring |
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Beware of "bells and whistles" that add complexity. More than
once I've encountered costly field service issues with
so called "enhancements" to performance that became problem
children for at least some owners. A part that is NOT on your
airplane will never be a failure/performance issue.
Bob . . .
At 03:49 PM 8/23/2006 -0700, you wrote:
Quote: |
<legacy(at)speedband.com>
Aircraft Extras in Ohio ( http://www.aircraftextras.com ) has a system that
will disable your flap switch at whatever speed you want...presumably the
top of the white arc. That way, inadvertent activation of your flap switch
in cruise would do nothing. Inadvertent activation below flap speed would
not be prevented, but would cause no harm either.
I too am going to have a flap switch on my stick, but I'm also going to
install Aircraft Extra's accidental flap deployment protection system.
Jon Hults
Legacy
--
-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
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