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flap deployment above Vfe

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brian-av(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:49 am Post subject: flap deployment above Vfe

There seems to be some worry about flap deployment above Vfe.  

Remember, Vfe is for *full* flap deployment. Most aircraft can deploy  

partial flaps at much higher speeds. I used to deploy a small amount  

of flaps on my RV-4 to help me slow down in a pinch.



Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian HYPHEN av AT lloyd DOT com    Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

dsvs(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:33 am Post subject: flap deployment above Vfe

Brian, 

In addition to your comment, I would add that the flap deployment takes some time.  If one accidently touches the flap switch (the kind mounted on the sticck) the flaps would only deploy slightly unless the pilot held the switch down.  This would go beyound accidental deployment.  There is also a notable reaction to deployment of flaps, and unless the pilot was overloade to the point of not having situational awareness should note that the flaps are being deployed.  This will not stop every inadvertant flap deployment, but I doubt that the situation is any where as common or dangerous as some imply.  Don  

 -------------- Original message ----------------------

From: Brian Lloyd <brian-av(at)lloyd.com>

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 There seems to be some worry about flap deployment above Vfe.  

 Remember, Vfe is for *full* flap deployment. Most aircraft can deploy  

 partial flaps at much higher speeds. I used to deploy a small amount  

 of flaps on my RV-4 to help me slow down in a pinch.

 

 Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

 brian HYPHEN av AT lloyd DOT com    Folsom, CA 95630

 +1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

 

 I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

 — Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

oldbob(at)BeechOwners.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:59 am Post subject: flap deployment above Vfe

Good Morning Don,



All that you say makes sense, but I fail to see the

advantage to having so many switches on the control

stick.  



In fact, I don't see the need for many of them to be

on the throttle either.



I like having a trim switch on the control stick or

wheel.



I think a transmit button there is very handy, but I

like it even better on the throttle!  I do like the

idea of having an Ident button on the stick, but I

have never had one so mounted. May not be worth the

trouble.



An autopilot disconnect switch on the control unit

makes sense, but most autopilots can be easily

overridden if that becomes necessary.



My thought is to keep the number of switches on the

stick to the absolute minimum and and place the other

needed control devices in a comfortable position

relative to my throttle hand.



Isn't it great that we have the choice?



Happy Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Stearman N3977A

Downers Grove, Illinois



--- dsvs(at)comcast.net wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 dsvs(at)comcast.net

 

 Brian, 

 In addition to your comment, I would add that the

 flap deployment takes some time.  If one accidently

 touches the flap switch (the kind mounted on the

 sticck) the flaps would only deploy slightly unless

 the pilot held the switch down.  This would go

 beyound accidental deployment.  There is also a

 notable reaction to deployment of flaps, and unless

 the pilot was overloade to the point of not having

 situational awareness should note that the flaps are

 being deployed.  This will not stop every

 inadvertant flap deployment, but I doubt that the

 situation is any where as common or dangerous as

 some imply.  Don  

  -------------- Original message

 ----------------------

 From: Brian Lloyd <brian-av(at)lloyd.com>

 > 

 Lloyd <brian-av(at)lloyd.com>

 > 

 > There seems to be some worry about flap deployment

 above Vfe.  

 > Remember, Vfe is for *full* flap deployment. Most

 aircraft can deploy  

 > partial flaps at much higher speeds. I used to

 deploy a small amount  

 > of flaps on my RV-4 to help me slow down in a

 pinch.

 > 

 > Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline

 Way

 > brian HYPHEN av AT lloyd DOT com    Folsom, CA

 95630

 > +1.916.367.2131 (voice)            

 +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

 > 

 > I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny

 of petty things . . .

 > — Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 

 

 



 browse

 Subscriptions page,

 FAQ,

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List



 Web Forums!

 Admin.

Bill Denton

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 97
Location: Chicago, IL USA

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:25 am Post subject: flap deployment above Vfe

"If one accidently touches the flap switch (the kind mounted on the sticck)

the flaps would only deploy slightly unless the pilot held the switch down."



That is not necessarily correct...



With many of the "flap controllers" which have been previously mentioned,

each "bump" of the flap switch lowers the flaps a pre-programmed amount.



For example the first "bump" would take the flaps to 10 degrees, the next

"bump" to 20 degrees, another "bump" to 30 degrees. And typically, a single

"bump" on the "up" switch fully retracts the flaps.



And at least one of these controllers can be programmed to automatically

adjust pitch trim as flaps are deployed/retracted.



So, even a little carelessness could cause a quick and possibly dangerous

reconfiguration of the aircraft...



--

dsvs(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:55 am Post subject: flap deployment above Vfe

Bob,

I was not trying to justify the addition of any switch to the stick, just commenting on the overblown percieved danger of such a switch.  And yes it is great that we have the choices. Don

 -------------- Original message ----------------------

From: OldBob Siegfried <oldbob(at)BeechOwners.com>

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <oldbob(at)beechowners.com>

 

 Good Morning Don,

 

 All that you say makes sense, but I fail to see the

 advantage to having so many switches on the control

 stick.  

 

 In fact, I don't see the need for many of them to be

 on the throttle either.

 

 I like having a trim switch on the control stick or

 wheel.

 

 I think a transmit button there is very handy, but I

 like it even better on the throttle!  I do like the

 idea of having an Ident button on the stick, but I

 have never had one so mounted. May not be worth the

 trouble.

 

 An autopilot disconnect switch on the control unit

 makes sense, but most autopilots can be easily

 overridden if that becomes necessary.

 

 My thought is to keep the number of switches on the

 stick to the absolute minimum and and place the other

 needed control devices in a comfortable position

 relative to my throttle hand.

 

 Isn't it great that we have the choice?

 

 Happy Skies,

 

 Old Bob

 AKA

 Bob Siegfried

 Stearman N3977A

 Downers Grove, Illinois

 

 --- dsvs(at)comcast.net wrote:

 

 > 

 > dsvs(at)comcast.net

 > 

 > Brian, 

 > In addition to your comment, I would add that the

 > flap deployment takes some time.  If one accidently

 > touches the flap switch (the kind mounted on the

 > sticck) the flaps would only deploy slightly unless

 > the pilot held the switch down.  This would go

 > beyound accidental deployment.  There is also a

 > notable reaction to deployment of flaps, and unless

 > the pilot was overloade to the point of not having

 > situational awareness should note that the flaps are

 > being deployed.  This will not stop every

 > inadvertant flap deployment, but I doubt that the

 > situation is any where as common or dangerous as

 > some imply.  Don  

 >  -------------- Original message

 > ----------------------

 > From: Brian Lloyd <brian-av(at)lloyd.com>

 > > 

 > Lloyd <brian-av(at)lloyd.com>

 > > 

 > > There seems to be some worry about flap deployment

 > above Vfe.  

 > > Remember, Vfe is for *full* flap deployment. Most

 > aircraft can deploy  

 > > partial flaps at much higher speeds. I used to

 > deploy a small amount  

 > > of flaps on my RV-4 to help me slow down in a

 > pinch.

 > > 

 > > Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline

 > Way

 > > brian HYPHEN av AT lloyd DOT com    Folsom, CA

 > 95630

 > > +1.916.367.2131 (voice)            

 > +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

 > > 

 > > I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny

 > of petty things . . .

 > > — Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

 > > 

 > > 

 > > 

 > > 

 > > 

 > > 

 > > 

 > > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 >

 > browse

 > Subscriptions page,

 > FAQ,

 > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

 >

 > Web Forums!

 >

 >

 > Admin.

 >

 > 

 > 

 > 

 >

dsvs(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:56 am Post subject: flap deployment above Vfe

Mabe so but these usually have the control circuit built into the switch and that precludes stich mounting them.

 -------------- Original message ----------------------

From: "Bill Denton" <bdenton(at)bdenton.com>

[quote] 

 

 "If one accidently touches the flap switch (the kind mounted on the sticck)

 the flaps would only deploy slightly unless the pilot held the switch down."

 

 That is not necessarily correct...

 

 With many of the "flap controllers" which have been previously mentioned,

 each "bump" of the flap switch lowers the flaps a pre-programmed amount.

 

 For example the first "bump" would take the flaps to 10 degrees, the next

 "bump" to 20 degrees, another "bump" to 30 degrees. And typically, a single

 "bump" on the "up" switch fully retracts the flaps.

 

 And at least one of these controllers can be programmed to automatically

 adjust pitch trim as flaps are deployed/retracted.

 

 So, even a little carelessness could cause a quick and possibly dangerous

 reconfiguration of the aircraft...

 

 

 

 --

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:36 am Post subject: flap deployment above Vfe

Bob and all,



I sure do agree with your whole message.

Just a question.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I do like the

 idea of having an Ident button on the stick, but I

 have never had one so mounted. May not be worth the

 trouble.

   

I'm not familiar with US ATC, but is the Ident button used so often ?
	


After all, once you've displayed your XPDR code and the controller sees 

you on his radar, what is the point in pushing ident again and again ? 

And he (she) would not ask you to Ident while you're performing some 

delicate maneuver, would he (or she) ?

Or am I missing something ?



 	  Quote: 	
		   My thought is to keep the number of switches on the

 stick to the absolute minimum and and place the other

 needed control devices in a comfortable position

 relative to my throttle hand.



 Isn't it great that we have the choice?

   

Regards,
	


Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

oldbob(at)BeechOwners.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:16 am Post subject: flap deployment above Vfe

Good Afternoon Gilles,



I think my comment to your comment will be:



It All Depends!



Most of my Stearman flying is VFR in the local Chicago

area. Every time I go to a local towered airport, I

will be asked to ident.



On very rare occasions when IFR, I will be asked to

ident when changing from one control center to

another. That doesn't happen anywhere near as often as

it did twenty to thirty years ago.



I am sure that the need for an ident is somewhat

variable depending on the area being flown and whether

or not the aircraft is in continuous contact with

officialdom. I tend to fly VFR with no flight plan and

no flight following whenever that is practical.

Therefore, anytime I do decide to join into the

"system" I will almost always be asked for an ident.



However, it doesn't happen often enough such that I

would make much effort to add that capability to my

control column!



Happy Skies,



Old Bob



--- Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr>

wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Thesee <Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr>

 

 Bob and all,

 

 I sure do agree with your whole message.

 Just a question.

 

 > I do like the

 > idea of having an Ident button on the stick, but I

 > have never had one so mounted. May not be worth

 the

 > trouble.

 >   

 I'm not familiar with US ATC, but is the Ident

 button used so often ?

 After all, once you've displayed your XPDR code and

 the controller sees 

 you on his radar, what is the point in pushing ident

 again and again ? 

 And he (she) would not ask you to Ident while you're

 performing some 

 delicate maneuver, would he (or she) ?

 Or am I missing something ?

 

 > My thought is to keep the number of switches on

 the

 > stick to the absolute minimum and and place the

 other

 > needed control devices in a comfortable position

 > relative to my throttle hand.

 >

 > Isn't it great that we have the choice?

 >   

 Regards,

 Gilles

 http://contrails.free.fr

 

 

 



 browse

 Subscriptions page,

 FAQ,

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List



 Web Forums!

 Admin.

LloydDR(at)wernerco.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:41 am Post subject: flap deployment above Vfe

The aircraft extra FPS system does not, it allows the builder to wire whatever switch they want, including a grip switch, but what they do have is an airspeed cutout, and this would solve it when in cruise but not during approach.

Dan

40269 



--

brian-av(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:47 pm Post subject: flap deployment above Vfe

Gilles Thesee wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I'm not familiar with US ATC, but is the Ident button used so often ?


	


No, it isn't. I just finished putting 75 hours on my Aztec in the last

two months. (Sacramento to Dominica via Texas and Florida, much flying

in Florida, and return to Sacramento via Texas and Boise.) Every flight

was "in the system". I made 20+ hops. I don't think I was asked to

"squawk IDENT" more than three or four times. You are correct in

assuming that once you enter your assigned code, ATC rarely requests

that you squawk IDENT.



BTW, the times I was asked to squawk IDENT were always on an initial

call-up and the facility or sector was trying to determine whether I was

in their airspace prior to assigning me a discrete code.



Like you, I see absolutely no need for an IDENT button my stick.



But ergonomics is an issue. Sure a button on the stick is convenient but

a button on the panel needn't be inconvenient. If you are building a

tandem aircraft think about locating your radios on the left side of

your panel so you can leave your right hand on the stick and can use

your left hand to manipulate the knobs. Likewise put your switches over

there too.



And think about putting your PTT on the throttle in a tandem aircraft.

That is how most military aircraft are configured. It may seem strange

at first but later it becomes very comfortable. That is now how I prefer

things.



Brian

legacy(at)speedband.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:54 pm Post subject: flap deployment above Vfe

Military fighter pilots have had much more "consequential" switches on their

throttles and sticks for quite some time.  The theory behind HOTAS (Hands On

Throttle And Stick) is that you are less likely to make flight path

deviations if you keep your hands on the controls...and less likely to run

into something if you don't have to look inside to throw a switch.  Makes

sense to me.



The trick is in the design of the stick.  The top buttons which should

probably be reserved for "consequential" switches (trim, flaps, speedbrakes,

spoilers, etc..) are out of reach with a normal grasp on the stick.  A

conscious movement of the thumb is required to activate these switches.  You

do have to learn where the switches are and not to touch them when you don't

want them to move.  We all learned that way back in the beginning from our

flight instructors...didn't we?



If you want to be sure you can't activate the flaps in cruise flight, try

this http://www.aircraftextras.com/ It uses a relay board to disable the

flap switch above max flap speed to avoid inadvertent flap extension.



I think HOTAS is another great idea that will lead to safer flying in all of

general aviation thanks to experimental builders like us.



My opinion, for what it's worth.

Jon Hults

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