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Engine Kick-Back IO-360

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rveighta(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:42 am Post subject: Engine Kick-Back IO-360

All, yesterday as I attempted to start up the IO-360 in my RV-8A, the

engine "kicked back" and broke something in the starter, which is a 

Sky Tec Flyweight 149-12LS. 



When I say "broke something" I mean it actually broke off the cast

metal nose of the starter, exposing the pinion gear.



Any thoughts on what could cause the kick-backs?  This is the second 

time I've had a problem with this starter - sent it back for repairs about

200 hours ago - it was almost new then, and the factory covered the 

repair cost.



Walt Shipley

Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:18 am Post subject: Engine Kick-Back IO-360

If you have an electronic ignition, your voltage drop when you engage the

starter may be causing timing problems. If you have a standard magneto

ignition system then you should check your impulse coupling and mag timing.



Bruce

www.glasair.org

 



--

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:34 am Post subject: Engine Kick-Back IO-360

On 26 Aug 2006, at 09:41, rveighta wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 All, yesterday as I attempted to start up the IO-360 in my RV-8A, the

 engine "kicked back" and broke something in the starter, which is a

 Sky Tec Flyweight 149-12LS.



 When I say "broke something" I mean it actually broke off the cast

 metal nose of the starter, exposing the pinion gear.



 Any thoughts on what could cause the kick-backs?  This is the second

 time I've had a problem with this starter - sent it back for  

 repairs about

 200 hours ago - it was almost new then, and the factory covered the

 repair cost.


	


What type of ignition system?  I've heard of some electronic ignition  

systems that misbehave when the voltage goes low during start.  The  

permanent magnet SkyTec starters apparently pull more current than  

some other starters, and thus drag the system voltage lower.



Possible solutions, if this is the problem:



1. Leave the EI off until after start,



2. Ensure the EI is wired so it gets its power close to the battery.   

There will be a large voltage drop between the battery and the  

starter, and it would be bad to pull the EI power from a location  

that is subject to some or all of that voltage drop.



3. Reduce the resistance of the starter power feed (larger diameter  

cable, clean up connections etc).



4. Battery with more capacity and/or lower internal resistance so it  

provides higher voltage during starting.



5. Different starter.  I've seen one report where going to a B&C  

starter stopped the kickback problem.



Kevin Horton         RV-8 (finishing kit)

Ottawa, Canada

http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8

jrdial(at)hal-pc.org
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 8:05 am Post subject: Engine Kick-Back IO-360

I did not break a starter but the inrush current to the

permanent magnet starter I had dropped my voltage low enough that it was

below the compliance voltage for the electronic ignition. I changed it

out for a wound field starter and the problem was solved.

	If you want to know brand names etc. email me off list.



	DO NOT ARCHIVE



--

jeffpoint

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 72
Location: MKE

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:39 am Post subject: Engine Kick-Back IO-360

Walt,



You are not the first person to experience this.  My Stytec flyweight 

did the same thing on me at about 70 hours.  Skytec likes to blame 

electronic ignitions for this problem, but the electronic ignition 

manufacturers have a different take on it.



What ignition, battery and prop are you using?  If you have a smaller 

battery (Odyssey, Panasonic) and a light prop (wood, composite) than you 

are set up for failure.  Permanent magnet motors (like the Skytec) have 

much higher current draw than a wound-field motor.  Combine the high 

current draw with the low current capabilities of a small battery and 

the lack of flywheel effect from a light prop, and you've set the stage 

for starting problems.



In my case, a switch to a B&C wound field starter solved my problems.  

It spins the engine so fact I can almost get the tail up on starter 

power alone,  Ok, not quite.  In fairness, Skytec does sell a wound 

field starter as well, but I'm a big fan of B&C.



There's plenty about this in the archives.  Search on my name and 

"Skytec" around August 2004.



Jeff Point

RV-6 flying

RV-8 preview plans

Milwaukee

 	  Quote:

_________________
Jeff Point
RV-6
Milwaukee WI

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:55 am Post subject: Engine Kick-Back IO-360

Which electronic ignition system do you have?  Do you have any idea  

what the voltage at the EI was dropping to?



I'm interested, as I have a SkyTec starter, and an LSE Plasma II  

ignition.  I haven't run the engine yet.  The ignition gets its power  

from a bus connected directly to the battery.



Kevin Horton



On 26 Aug 2006, at 12:04, J. R. Dial wrote:



[quote] 

 	I did not break a starter but the inrush current to the

 permanent magnet starter I had dropped my voltage low enough that  

 it was

 below the compliance voltage for the electronic ignition. I changed it

 out for a wound field starter and the problem was solved.

 	If you want to know brand names etc. email me off list.



 	DO NOT ARCHIVE



 --

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:50 am Post subject: Engine Kick-Back IO-360

Well Walt, you didn't give us much to go on, so I'll WAG this.  The 

reason it kicked back is that the engine fired one plug (probably) 25 

degrees before  top dead center.  That's 25 deg. BTDC.  This normally 

happens when the ignition is wired with a ignition switch without a 

start position ..... using a separate pushbutton for the starter.  The 

cure is to start the engine on the left mag (where the impulse mag 

usually is) and then turn on the right mag after starting.  Folks never 

have a problem normally because their old bendix starter didn't swing 

the prop fast enough to get the right mag to fire .... but the dandy 

little replacements will do so with relative ease.



Now, if you have an ignition switch with the start mode ...... better 

check your wiring.  With this kind of switch in the start position, the 

right mag is still grounded .... or should be!!!

Linn

do not archive

rveighta wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



All, yesterday as I attempted to start up the IO-360 in my RV-8A, the

engine "kicked back" and broke something in the starter, which is a 

Sky Tec Flyweight 149-12LS. 



When I say "broke something" I mean it actually broke off the cast

metal nose of the starter, exposing the pinion gear.



Any thoughts on what could cause the kick-backs?  This is the second 

time I've had a problem with this starter - sent it back for repairs about

200 hours ago - it was almost new then, and the factory covered the 

repair cost.



Walt Shipley



  



3

mkejrj(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:24 pm Post subject: Engine Kick-Back IO-360

I spoke with Klaus (at) OSH regarding the "kickback" potential of my LSE Plasma III installed on my Superior I0 360. I also have the SkyTek starter.

 Klaus issued a service bulletin ( 1/05 ) regarding "kickbacks".It notes that the PM starters draw very high current which drops the voltage available to the LSE ignition system. If the voltage drops below 8.5 volts the LSE is disabled and kickbacks can occur. The system needs at least 8.5 volts during the starting phase.

 LSE can modify your system if you return same to him. I believe the cost is about $ 100.00. The mod allows the LSE to operate as low as 6.5  volts.

 Dick Jordan

 N888BZ RV 8A/flying

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com> 

[quote] --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton 

 Which electronic ignition system do you have? Do you have any idea 

 what the voltage at the EI was dropping to? 

 I'm interested, as I have a SkyTec starter, and an LSE Plasma II 

 ignition. I haven't run the engine yet. The ignition gets its power 

 from a bus connected directly to the battery. 

 Kevin Horton 

 On 26 Aug 2006, at 12:04, J. R. Dial wrote: 

 > --> RV-List message posted by: "J. R. Dial" 

 > 

 > 

 > I did not break a starter but the inrush current to the 

 > permanent magnet starter I had dropped my voltage low enough that 

   >  it was 

 > below the compliance voltage for the electronic ignition. I changed it 

 > out for a wound field starter and the problem was solved. 

 > If you want to know brand names etc. email me off list. 

 > 

 > DO NOT ARCHIVE 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > --

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:43 pm Post subject: Engine Kick-Back IO-360

 	  Quote: 	
		  Klaus issued a service bulletin ( 1/05 ) regarding "kickbacks".It notes that the PM starters draw very high current which drops the voltage available to the LSE ignition system. If the voltage drops below 8.5 volts the LSE is disabled and kickbacks can occur. The system needs at least 8.5 volts during the starting phase.

  	


 I have a carbureted O-360, Aymar Demuth wood prop, LSE III ignition

 and Odyssey PC 680 battery.  During one annual my A&P measured the 

 voltage at several points during a short cranking cycle.  There was a

 significant voltage drop (don't remember the number) so I went to a

 larger cable to the starter, changed to the correct starter solenoid 

 and put in the PC 925 battery.   I also think my starter is a Sky Tec LS

 something.



 Where before the prop would often stop on a compression stroke

 (assumption) it swings right through now.  I had perhaps 700 hours

 on the previous deficient setup with no kickbacks.   At least not one

 that caused any problem.    I am not sure that I have even experienced

 a kickback.



 I may make the LSE voltage mod if I am down for something else

 in the future for additional protection.



 Ron Lee

     [quote][b]

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 3:03 pm Post subject: Engine Kick-Back IO-360

This is directly from Lightspeed Engineering’s website today.  

   

Terry  

             

KICKBACKS             

Date of Issue: 01/2005        

  

             

There are many possible reasons the engine can misfire   during start. Several AD’s have been issued over the years regarding   impulse coupling problems on magnetos.  Additionally, cold oil can   prevent proper functioning of the impulse coupling.  Cross firing in the   distributor section of the mag can also be the cause for uncontrolled spark   timing of the magneto.  So if you still have a magneto on one side, be   sure the mag is in good shape and up to date to avoid misfiring.   

Some time ago we received reports of kickbacks during   start on airplanes with dual Plasma CD Ignitions.  Extensive   investigation showed that they were all using permanent magnet type   starters.  This type of starter typically draws much higher current than   field wound starters.  The installation manual for one of the main PM   starter manufacturers advises that a 45% larger battery output is   required!  This, of course, eliminates any advertised weight savings but   the bigger problem occurs when the engine owner is not aware of these   requirements.   

If the battery is too small, the electrical system   voltage can collapse when the starter tries to turn the engine over   compression.  This can temporarily disable the ignition system if the   voltage drops to less than 8.5 volts.  Other ignition systems go off   line when the supply voltage drops below 10.3 volts.  The Plasma CDI   will operate safely down to about 5 volts once the engine is running but it   needs 8.5 volts to start.   

The best way to prevent any problems is to install an   appropriate size battery and cables to carry the actual load.  If the   electrical system is robust, the voltage dips during cranking should not go   below 10 volts.  This also keeps the Plasma CDI happy.   

To help avoid any kick backs that might be caused by low   voltage of a compromised electrical system, we have made further improvements   to the design that now allows the Plasma CDI to operate reliably down to 6.5   volts!  The Plasma CDI’s new extreme low voltage capability   provides a larger safety margin (more time) in case of an alternator   failure.  It also allows starting by hand when the battery is too low to   turn the starter.  This modification to lower the minimum voltage even   further will be incorporated into all Plasma CDI systems beginning spring   2005 and can be incorporated into older systems if requested.  Systems   having this modification are labeled “Version  PMS” (this   stands for “Permanent Magnet Starter”, of course),   "U3+" or "A" after the serial number.     

There have been no reports of kickbacks with the B&C   starters, which are all wound field types and draw substantially less   current.        

  

   

   

        [quote][b]

Hopperdhh(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:20 am Post subject: Engine Kick-Back IO-360

In a message dated 8/26/2006 4:26:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  mkejrj(at)comcast.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     I spoke with Klaus (at) OSH regarding the "kickback" potential of my LSE    Plasma III installed on my Superior I0 360. I also have the SkyTek    starter.

    

   Klaus issued a service bulletin ( 1/05 ) regarding "kickbacks".It notes    that the PM starters draw very high current which drops the voltage available    to the LSE ignition system. If the voltage drops below 8.5 volts the LSE is    disabled and kickbacks can occur. The system needs at least 8.5 volts during    the starting phase.

    

    

   LSE can modify your system if you return same to him. I believe the cost    is about $ 100.00. The mod allows the LSE to operate as low as 6.5     volts.

    

   Dick Jordan

   N888BZ RV 8A/flying

    

	


 

 Interesting!  I worked in ignition system design for GM for 15  years.  We always had to meet a 4.5 volt, 30 RPM cranking test.  Yes,  a low battery on a GM car can dip to 4.5 volts and the ignition system has to  stay in sync and deliver a spark.  It seems to me like a design defect,  and LSE should do the fix for no charge.

  

 Dan Hopper

 RV-7A

  

  [quote][b]

panamared3(at)brier.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:18 am Post subject: Engine Kick-Back IO-360

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Interesting!  I worked in ignition system design for GM for 15 years.  We 

always had to meet a 4.5 volt, 30 RPM cranking test.  Yes, a low battery 

on a GM car can dip to 4.5 volts and the ignition system has to stay in 

sync and deliver a spark.  It seems to me like a design defect, and LSE 

should do the fix for no charge.


	


This is not just a problem with LSE but with magnetos as well.  I had the 

same problem with slick magnetos, my fix, was to go with a 25 year old 

prestolite starter.  It works great and only cost me $150.  It cost me more 

to fix the SkyTec starter the first time, the second time I did not fix it!



It seems that this is more a problem with SkyTec and they should fix the 

problem, of course they told me my magnetos were not timed properly and 

that was the reason for the kickbacks!  I do not like their product, but 

their management is very innovative on reasons why it is not their fault 

that their starter does not work.

Bob

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:53 am Post subject: Engine Kick-Back IO-360

Just as another opinion ..... I love my Sky-Tek!  No more stuck bendix 

problems!  No more engaged starter if I'm forced to prop it!!!   The 

starter isn't ever the problem with kickback.  If you have electronic 

ignition, you might just want to go to bigger starter cable in the 

airplane.  If the starter is dragging down the voltage then it's only 

one of two things:  bad battery or too small cables.  If you have mags, 

then it's a stupid pilot trick starting on both mags.  You surely can't 

blame that on the starter!!!  Well, I guess you did, so that's where 

we're at.  Anyway, my Sky-Tek swings my O-360 fast enough for the 

non-impulse to fire.  I'm grateful for that in case my impulse dies far 

from home.  If the battery is good then I can at least get the plane 

started.

Now, if anyone's still having problems with their Sky-Tek starter, just 

email Les at lstaples(at)itexas.net and he'll help you out.  I've had cause 

to use their customer service and was more than happy with the outcome.

I now relinquish my soapbox to the next ranter.

Linn

do not archive

Bob wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

>

> Interesting!  I worked in ignition system design for GM for 15 

> years.  We always had to meet a 4.5 volt, 30 RPM cranking test.  Yes, 

> a low battery on a GM car can dip to 4.5 volts and the ignition 

> system has to stay in sync and deliver a spark.  It seems to me like 

> a design defect, and LSE should do the fix for no charge.

 This is not just a problem with LSE but with magnetos as well.  I had 

 the same problem with slick magnetos, my fix, was to go with a 25 year 

 old prestolite starter.  It works great and only cost me $150.  It 

 cost me more to fix the SkyTec starter the first time, the second time 

 I did not fix it!

 It seems that this is more a problem with SkyTec and they should fix 

 the problem, of course they told me my magnetos were not timed 

 properly and that was the reason for the kickbacks!  I do not like 

 their product, but their management is very innovative on reasons why 

 it is not their fault that their starter does not work.

 Bob

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