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Mod. 62 - Replacement of tailplane torque tube drive pins

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lgds(at)post6.tele.dk
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:48 am Post subject: Mod. 62 - Replacement of tailplane torque tube drive pins

OK, I have now done the Europa modification No 62!

Amen.

Easy to write, but believe me - a hard job.

I did the fix according to the factory recommendations, but actually I feel that it's just a matter of time before the problem occurs again.

Think a better fix would have been to put AN5 bolts instead of the pins and to mill a aluminum plug which could slide inside the TP4 torque tube and give you the possibility to tighten the arrangement together.

I am interested in comments from folks who have done this mod. the Europa way to hear from their experience.



Regards Gert

OY-GDS / Europa Mono / Kit 151 / 914 / 400 hours

 [quote][b]

riddon(at)sent.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 8:10 am Post subject: Mod. 62 - Replacement of tailplane torque tube drive pins

Gert,  

   

I also did the mod last year.  Before doing it I asked Andy about the possibilities of having to do it again and he told me that, so far as he knew, no one has had to do it twice (although he could be proved wrong!).  Mine have not shown any sign of loosening again since I did the mod.  

   

Richard Iddon. G-RIXS  

   

-----Original Message-----

 From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gert Dalgaard

 Sent: 26 August 2006 16:47

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Mod. 62 - Replacement of tailplane torque tube drive pins   

   

OK, I have now done the Europa modification No 62!    

Amen.  

    

Easy to write, but believe me - a hard job.  

    

I did the fix according to the factory recommendations, but actually I feel that it's just a matter of time before the problem occurs again.  

    

Think a better fix would have been to put AN5 bolts instead of the pins and to mill a aluminum plug which could slide inside the TP4 torque tube and give you the possibility to tighten the arrangement together.  

    

I am interested in comments from folks who have done this mod. the Europa way to hear from their experience.  

    

   

    

Regards Gert  

    

OY-GDS / Europa Mono / Kit 151 / 914 / 400 hours  

   	  Quote: 	
		              - The Europa-List Email Forum -   -->               - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -   -->               - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -   -->              - List Contribution Web Site -  Thank you for your generous support!                              -Matt Dralle, List Admin.   -->  	


     

  

--

 25/08/2006

  

  

--

 25/08/2006

     [quote][b]

ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:59 am Post subject: Mod. 62 - Replacement of tailplane torque tube drive pins

That seems entirely credible given that  the original looseness probably develops as a results of either poor manufacture  in the first place and/or builder-induced looseness as the drive pins  are repeatedly assembled/dissembled during original  construction.

 But I'm holding my breath too!

  

 Duncan McF.

 [quote]   ---

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 8:15 pm Post subject: Mod. 62 - Replacement of tailplane torque tube drive pins

Hello Gert



"I am interested in comments from folks who have done this mod. the Europa

way to hear from their experience."



YIKES



My kit A-265 came through with 3/8 pins. The holes were trilobal, 2 of the

pins dropped in by hand, the other 2 way too loose. 



Andy sent me 3/8" pins .001" oversized. Not even close to resolve.



Next he sent me 10mm reamer and 4 10mm pins. Better but it is a new build

and there was play 1/2 way towards unacceptable. The reamer cut a little

oversized and the pin sizes were not too precise.



That was Factory resolve which would have no way lasted very long. Factory

went out of business shortly there after.



In less than thousands of words, I made a plastic fixture to hold things

solid in my Bridgeport milling machine. Snuck up on holes with a reamer,

then a second one a few thousands over the first. Plenty of cutting fluid.

I then machined a pin out of 416 Stainless Steel. Used precision pins to

measure hole, and hand lapped .0008" oversized. Pretty good but fit was

still not to my liking!



Ends up that although when you ream a hole, you can measure a size, if you

look at it under a microscope, it is not too close to smooth. I then made

a series of pins  in .0001" increments. Then I forced them 1 at a time

till I could feel a good amount of resistance. Once you get to this

resistance point, going larger does not change hole size. I will call this

burnishing. After burnishing I measured holes, and made pins oversized.

Not a trivial job making a pin holding tolerance to ~ .0002". Turn just a

little over, then hand lap to precise size. I also lapped the center of

pins a thousand or 2 undersized so the first hole would get minimal

damage. 



Absolute no play, and I am pretty certain this is a permanent repair. Pin

size was a little over .400" which was OKed by Andy.



Ron Parigoris

mikenjulie.parkin(at)btop
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:48 pm Post subject: Mod. 62 - Replacement of tailplane torque tube drive pins

---

lgds(at)post6.tele.dk
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:49 pm Post subject: Mod. 62 - Replacement of tailplane torque tube drive pins

Hi Ron

Sounds like a god and permanent way to solve that problem!

Regards Gert





Den 27/08/2006 kl. 6.14 skrev <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hello Gert



 "I am interested in comments from folks who have done this mod. the  

 Europa

 way to hear from their experience."



 YIKES



 My kit A-265 came through with 3/8 pins. The holes were trilobal, 2  

 of the

 pins dropped in by hand, the other 2 way too loose.



 Andy sent me 3/8" pins .001" oversized. Not even close to resolve.



 Next he sent me 10mm reamer and 4 10mm pins. Better but it is a new  

 build

 and there was play 1/2 way towards unacceptable. The reamer cut a  

 little

 oversized and the pin sizes were not too precise.



 That was Factory resolve which would have no way lasted very long.  

 Factory

 went out of business shortly there after.



 In less than thousands of words, I made a plastic fixture to hold  

 things

 solid in my Bridgeport milling machine. Snuck up on holes with a  

 reamer,

 then a second one a few thousands over the first. Plenty of cutting  

 fluid.

 I then machined a pin out of 416 Stainless Steel. Used precision  

 pins to

 measure hole, and hand lapped .0008" oversized. Pretty good but fit  

 was

 still not to my liking!



 Ends up that although when you ream a hole, you can measure a size,  

 if you

 look at it under a microscope, it is not too close to smooth. I  

 then made

 a series of pins  in .0001" increments. Then I forced them 1 at a time

 till I could feel a good amount of resistance. Once you get to this

 resistance point, going larger does not change hole size. I will  

 call this

 burnishing. After burnishing I measured holes, and made pins  

 oversized.

 Not a trivial job making a pin holding tolerance to ~ .0002". Turn  

 just a

 little over, then hand lap to precise size. I also lapped the  

 center of

 pins a thousand or 2 undersized so the first hole would get minimal

 damage.



 Absolute no play, and I am pretty certain this is a permanent  

 repair. Pin

 size was a little over .400" which was OKed by Andy.



 Ron Parigoris

william(at)wrmills.plus.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:01 pm Post subject: Mod. 62 - Replacement of tailplane torque tube drive pins

The other way is to clean the drive sleeve and torque tube surfaces with 

acetone and a jet of compressed air, then use a wicking grade Loctite to 

bond them together after lining up the tailplane trailing edges.  It must be 

about 800 to 900 hours since I did that to mine and they are still solid.  I 

will, of course, have to deal with dismantling if I ever have to, but a heat 

source inside the torque tube should do the trick.  I also had to provide 

some lubricating tubes to replace the oil into the torque tube bearings, 

because the acetone washes that out too.

Regards,

William

---

lgds(at)post6.tele.dk
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:23 pm Post subject: Mod. 62 - Replacement of tailplane torque tube drive pins

Hi WilliamThat could also be an option though it sounds a little to permanent for me   )

Gert





Den 27/08/2006 kl. 8.00 skrev William Mills:

[quote]

The other way is to clean the drive sleeve and torque tube surfaces with acetone and a jet of compressed air, then use a wicking grade Loctite to bond them together after lining up the tailplane trailing edges.  It must be about 800 to 900 hours since I did that to mine and they are still solid.  I will, of course, have to deal with dismantling if I ever have to, but a heat source inside the torque tube should do the trick.  I also had to provide some lubricating tubes to replace the oil into the torque tube bearings, because the acetone washes that out too. 

Regards, 

William [b]

g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:44 am Post subject: Mod. 62 - Replacement of tailplane torque tube drive pins

Gert

  

  " Think a better fix would have been to put AN5  bolts instead of the pins and to mill a aluminium plug which could slide inside  the TP4 torque tube and give you the possibility to tighten the arrangement  together. I am interested in comments from  folks who have done this mod. the Europa way to hear from their experience."

  

 Nigel Graham has already done what you suggest.  I  have seen the parts but I an not sure if he has fitted them to his kit.  I  use the word kit because he is still a long way from having a flying  aircraft.  The spacer is, I believe, steel rather that aluminium and has a  circumferential groove for "loctite". 

  

 The important thing is how you locate the internal  spacer inside the torque tube and reduce any play between the spacer and the  tube.  Nigel's solution to this is to tap a hole in the centre of the  spacer and insert it into the tube on a long rod with a tread on the end.   When in the correct position the rod and spacer are rotated while a suitable  "loctite" is spread on the spacer through the hole in the tube.  This  allows the spacer to be glued in without wipeing the glue (loctite) off as it is  fed down the tube.  The spacer is then rotated to align the bolt hole, a  bolt inserted and the loctite left to harden.

  

 I have been chasing Nigel to let me have the details  for some time now.  When I get them I intend to put it in as a PFA standard  modification and (in conjunction with Europa 2004) look for a supplier for the  spacers.  Unfortunately PFA have had some six standard mods sitting on  Francis Donaldson's desk for some 10 months without being processed.  I  spoke to Francis at the FFF Rally last week and he did say he hoped to get round  to them soon.

  

  

Ian Rickard  #505 G-IANI XS Trigear

Europa Club Mods Rep  (Trigear)

e-mail mods(at)europaclub.org.uk  

   or direct  g-iani(at)ntlworld.com 

   



 [quote]   

[b]

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 6:42 am Post subject: Mod. 62 - Replacement of tailplane torque tube drive pins

Hi! Gert,  

At the expense of being ridiculed……….!  IMHO if a pin goes in no matter what the type of fit sooner or later it will begin to loosen. IMHO the only conceivable 100% way is to clamp the “f…***g”  lot solid! (if you don’t wish to have hassle freeing off loctite) ……. I already supplied a set of my clamps to a guy on 3/8” oversized holes that have worn yet again.  

Regards  

Bob H   

   

   

   

-----Original Message-----

 From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gert Dalgaard

 Sent: 26 August 2006 16:47

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Mod. 62 - Replacement of tailplane torque tube drive pins   

   

OK, I have now done the Europa modification No 62!    

Amen.  

    

Easy to write, but believe me - a hard job.  

    

I did the fix according to the factory recommendations, but actually I feel that it's just a matter of time before the problem occurs again.  

    

Think a better fix would have been to put AN5 bolts instead of the pins and to mill a aluminum plug which could slide inside the TP4 torque tube and give you the possibility to tighten the arrangement together.  

    

I am interested in comments from folks who have done this mod. the Europa way to hear from their experience.  

    

   

    

Regards Gert  

    

OY-GDS / Europa Mono / Kit 151 / 914 / 400 hours  

  [quote]            - The Europa-List Email Forum -   -->               - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -   -->               - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -   -->              - List Contribution Web Site -  Thank you for your generous support!                              -Matt Dralle, List Admin.   -->  [b]

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:00 am Post subject: Mod. 62 - Replacement of tailplane torque tube drive pins

Hello Mike



"All this for a couple of pins ??????

"Just which century were you planning to fly your aircraft Ron??"



Why I plan to fly in the precise century when the aeroplane is complete!



Some battles are worth fighting early on rather than later.



I believe that the initial fit of the pins are not the only problem that

can cause ill fitting pins later.



The machine job of my pushrod control horn and stabilator drives were poor

fitting the TT, oval, slight mis alignment in the center of 1 and just

plain oversized with bad finish.



Another battle that took half a day was installing custom stainless shims

to aid this bad fit. Using .001, .002, .003" shims, I waxed TT, and put a

Loctite liquid shim compound on the outside of shims and slid them in

place before I sent the drive pins home.



Then of course there is the saga of our accelerated stabilators, that had

a bushing debond, one drain hole got drilled through the pip pin hole and

the stabilator drive bushings were held in place with rapid epoxy with

less than 50% contact (of course they were not aligned proper). Setting

that problem straight took plenty longer than the drive pin resolve.



Wasting time complaining and pointing fingers does not get planes in the

air. Wasting time making things right may, if I live long enough!



Ron Parigoris



Only a few more battles to go before top goes on.



Do not archive

wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:43 pm Post subject: Mod. 62 - Replacement of tailplane torque tube drive pins

are we talking about the pins through the tailplane or the  pins through the torque tube near where the main control tube joins the torque  tube in the center line?

   From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  R.C.Harrison

Sent: 27 August, 2006 09:41

To:  europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Mod. 62 -  Replacement of tailplane torque tube drive pins 

Hi!  Gert, 

At the expense of being  ridiculed……….!  IMHO if a pin goes  in no matter what the type of fit sooner or later it will begin to loosen. IMHO  the only conceivable 100% way is to clamp the “f…***g”  lot solid! (if you don’t wish to have hassle freeing off loctite) ……. I already supplied a set of my clamps to a guy  on 3/8” oversized holes that have worn yet again. 

Regards 

Bob H   

-----Original  Message-----

From:  owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gert Dalgaard

Sent: 26 August 2006 16:47

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Mod. 62 - Replacement  of tailplane torque tube drive pins  

OK, I have now done the Europa  modification No 62!  

Amen.

Easy to write, but believe me - a hard  job.

I did the fix according to the factory  recommendations, but actually I feel that it's just a matter of time before the  problem occurs again.

Think a better fix would have been to put  AN5 bolts instead of the pins and to mill a aluminum plug which could slide  inside the TP4 torque tube and give you the possibility to tighten the  arrangement together.

I am interested in comments from folks who  have done this mod. the Europa way to hear from their  experience.

Regards  Gert

OY-GDS / Europa Mono / Kit 151 / 914 / 400  hours

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