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601 Aileron Lock / Rudder Lock?

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fderfler(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:34 am Post subject: 601 Aileron Lock / Rudder Lock?

I am awaiting delivery of a factory-made 601 XL / Zodiac from AMD.  Getting everything ready.  On my previously owned Grumman it was common practice to slide a wood block aileron lock between the aileron and wing.  The logic being that gusts wouldn't stress the cabling.   

  

 Is it common practice for 601s tied down outside to have gust locks on the ailerons and/or rudder?  Is there typically clearance for a bolt to slide into the slot? 

 Is it common practice to use the seat belts to secure the control stick? Or is there a better plan? 

-- 

Frank Derfler, Marathon in the Florida Keys 

 Waiting for Zodiac N183AM (just coming out of paint) 

See my views and reviews at www.derfler.biz 

See my information for pilots at www.flyinflorida.com  

  [quote][b]

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:50 am Post subject: 601 Aileron Lock / Rudder Lock?

My 601XL is a kit in progress. Tail and wings are done and I just began work on the fuselage, so control surface locks are still in the concept stage. My inclination is to secure the sticks and rudder pedals inside the cockpit if I will be away from the plane while it sits outside. I'm not concerned about stress on the cables since they will have to sustain more force in flight at 125 mph than they would in a 75 mph gust (which would probably damage more than the control surfaces). A simple set of straps customized to hold the sticks and pedals at a neutral position ought to do the job very nicely.



Ed Moody II

Rayne, LA

601XL / fuselage



---- Frank Derfler <fderfler(at)gmail.com> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   I am awaiting delivery of a factory-made 601 XL / Zodiac from AMD.  Getting

 everything ready.  On my previously owned Grumman it was common practice to

 slide a wood block aileron lock between the aileron and wing.  The logic

 being that gusts wouldn't stress the cabling.

daveaustin2(at)can.rogers
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:20 am Post subject: 601 Aileron Lock / Rudder Lock?

I've used a bungee cord between one of the rudder pedals and the stick for

13 years.  No damage so far!

Dave Austin  601HDS - 912, Spitfire Mk VIII

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:19 am Post subject: 601 Aileron Lock / Rudder Lock?

Hi Ed,

I don't have experience with a finished plane yet either.  However, I 

think your logic is a bit flawed.  The 125 mph relative wind in 

flight will, for the most part, be directly in front of the 

plane.  Ground wind gusts will vary in direction and force and can 

cause the plane's control surfaces to slam back and forth between the stops.

I agree with you that the cables can probably stand up to this 

treatment, but I am not sure the control surfaces will do as well in 

storms while parked outside.

Paul

XL fuselage

do not archive

At 06:49 AM 8/29/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

My 601XL is a kit in progress. Tail and wings are done and I just 

began work on the fuselage, so control surface locks are still in 

the concept stage. My inclination is to secure the sticks and rudder 

pedals inside the cockpit if I will be away from the plane while it 

sits outside. I'm not concerned about stress on the cables since 

they will have to sustain more force in flight at 125 mph than they 

would in a 75 mph gust (which would probably damage more than the 

control surfaces). A simple set of straps customized to hold the 

sticks and pedals at a neutral position ought to do the job very nicely.

Ed Moody II

Rayne, LA

601XL / fuselage

---- Frank Derfler <fderfler(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 > I am awaiting delivery of a factory-made 601 XL / Zodiac from AMD.  Getting

 > everything ready.  On my previously owned Grumman it was common practice to

 > slide a wood block aileron lock between the aileron and wing.  The logic

 > being that gusts wouldn't stress the cabling.

601zv(at)ritternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:29 am Post subject: 601 Aileron Lock / Rudder Lock?

Here's my story concerning the importance of control locks: I once left the 

elevator lock off my 172 when it was parked outside and not flown for 

several months. When I did fly it, I did a poor preflight (pulled yoke fore 

and aft to detemine controls were free but neglected to actually watch that 

the elevator was moving). Take-off required full aft yoke which yielded 

about 50 ft/min. climb, and landing required long shallow approach - the 

elevator tended to want to pretty much float in neutral. The elevator 

flapping in the wind had caused the rivets holding the bellcrank to work 

loose and some fell out, leaving much cable slack. I'm now more diligent in 

use of control locks and preflight.



---

klaus(at)utdallas.edu
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:33 am Post subject: 601 Aileron Lock / Rudder Lock?

Hi,



A gustlock for the rudder is automatically provided by the direct 

connection of the

rudder with the nosewheel. Unless that wheel is turned, the rudder will 

not move. Hence,

for the rudder I have never used a gust lock.



A different case are the aileron and elevator.

They move freely, and a gustlock is mandatory when the plane is parked 

for any extended

period. For my plane, I made a small, lightweight gust lock that 

essentially is a bracket with

an indentation fitting over the center stick. The two arms of the 

bracket go into the

the channel in front of the spar, and a pin locks those arms in place. 

When installed, the

gust lock holds the control stick in the forward, centered position. 

This forces down elevator

and neutral aileron position. 



If somebody is interested in details, let me know, and I will take some 

pictures and install

them on my website by September 11.



Best wishes,



Klaus Truemper



-- 

Klaus Truemper

Professor Emeritus of Computer Science

University of Texas at Dallas

Erik Jonsson School of Engineering and

  Computer Science EC31

P.O. Box 830688

Richardson, TX 75083-0688

(972) 883-2712

klaus(at)utdallas.edu

www.utdallas.edu/~klaus

fderfler(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:15 am Post subject: 601 Aileron Lock / Rudder Lock?

Thanks to Klaus and otherswho responded to my original question about gust locks for the rudder and aileron.  I understand that the rudder's movement it limited by the nosewheel interconnection and that the stick can be secured in the cockpit.  Thanks for the info on using the bungee cord to hold the stick.  I now know to include a bungee in my bag when I go to Alabama to pick up the airplane.   

  

 But, these internal locks don't protect the control surfaces, brackets (as was pointed out) and cables against sideloads, updrafts, whirlwinds, etc when the aircraft is tied down.  So, here is my specific question:  Is the enough of a gap between the aileron and the wing and between the rudder and the tail to slide in a screw that would hold together a sandwich of two wooden pieces that would secure the aileron or rudder?  How wide is the gap? Would a 1/4 inch screw fit easily in the slot?  A 1/8 screw?   

  

 (As an aside.. don't ever get inspired to make one of these sandwiches out of pressure treated wood.  The PT corrodes aluminum.  You need the special green colored wood used to frame around aluminum windows in residential construction... in the aviation section of any lumber yard.   )   

-- 

Frank Derfler 

See my views and reviews at www.derfler.biz 

See my information for pilots at www.flyinflorida.com 

  [quote][b]

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:55 am Post subject: 601 Aileron Lock / Rudder Lock?

Frank, if your plane has the hingless ailerons there is absolutely NO gap at the wing. If it has a piano hinge for the ailerons, same thing..... no room for a pin or wire or bolt to pass through vertically to hold the clamp device. 



On a 601XL, there is no projection of the wingtip aft alongside the outboard edge of the aileron, so no luck there either. That leaves the flap at the inboard edge of the aileron. but the flap skin and its linkage would be put at risk if you do that, so you are not eliminating a danger.... you're only choosing the location of the trauma.



Speaking of the flap, what are you planning on doing to protect it? The same stress on the cables, bellcrank bracket etc. that concerns you reagarding the ailerons will be at risk on the flap except that the flap has a motor and actuator arm instead. If the flap can stand the weather, so can an aileron with the stick strapped in place.



That leaves us with designing some fixed bracket to which the aileron could be pinned when tied down. I don't like the idea of having such a device that might be deflected accidently into a position that obstructs aileron movement inflight.



It appears that tieing the stick in place is safe effective and the simplest choice.



Ed



---- Frank Derfler <fderfler(at)gmail.com> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   But, these internal locks don't protect the control surfaces, brackets (as

 was pointed out) and cables against sideloads, updrafts, whirlwinds, etc

 when the aircraft is tied down.  So, here is my specific question:  Is the

 enough of a gap between the aileron and the wing and between the rudder and

 the tail to slide in a screw that would hold together a sandwich of two

 wooden pieces that would secure the aileron or rudder?  How wide is the

 gap? Would a 1/4 inch screw fit easily in the slot?  A 1/8 screw?


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Frank Derfler

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:14 am Post subject: 601 Aileron Lock / Rudder Lock?

I feel your pain brother..... I live less than 50 miles from the Gulf in Rayne, LA so we share a concern for salt air on aluminum. On top of that, I fly from an airport that has high seasonal ag plane traffic which means corrosive fertilizer and poisons so I am priming the entire inside of my plane as I build it. Anything that can't be primed and painted when the plane is finished and anything that overlaps (like skin joints) is being primed as I go. 



The inside of your plane is likely being primed only on mating surfaces unless you specified otherwise. If there isn't corrosion protection on the entire inside, I'd suggest something like the Corrosion X system as a safeguard.



Hopefully you folks weren't seriously affected by the storm. My memory of Marathon Key is that your exposure is pretty extreme despite the relatively large size of the island.



Best of luck,



Ed

David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: 601 Aileron Lock / Rudder Lock?

The two main purposes of the gust lock is to prevent slamming of the control surfaces against the stops and to prevent the wind from getting a grip on a surface (especially the elevator) which could flip or roll the aircraft on the ground. I don't think it would make much difference as far as cable pressures go.



I use two bungee cords with plastic hooks on each end. I hook each cord to a rudder pedal - one on the left side of the plane, the other on the right side. The cords are then connected to the stick. This holds the stick in a neutral aileron position with a full down elevator.



I don't like the idea of blocks on the aileron itself. I think the aileron is much too fragile for that. The elevator should be full down, so a block won't help there. The rudder is already dampend by the nose wheel bungee so it's not going to flop around like the elevator or ailerons might.

_________________
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE

Tommy Walker

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Anniston, AL 36207

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:58 am Post subject: Re: 601 Aileron Lock / Rudder Lock?

A 601XL at my airport (25A), sustained just the type of damage you are concerned about.  The owner had no gust locks and wind damaged the right aileron.  He has since fashioned gust locks for the ailerons and elevator.



I can make a picture next time I'm out  to the airport if you like.



Tommy Walker in Alabama

Do Not Archive

_________________
Tommy Walker
N25A - Anniston, AL

dbortol(at)yahoo.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:03 am Post subject: 601 Aileron Lock / Rudder Lock?

I saw a very simple control lock on a 601 at Oshkosh. I can't recall the builder's name, but he was based at Osh. Unfortunately I didn't take a picture of the lock. I drew up a sketch (attached) that should give you the idea. The dimensions are approximate; some amount of 'eyeball engineering' is required. I think he had one on each outboard end of the elevator, and the flaps were retracted with another between each flap and aileron.



Dino Bortolin

La Salle, Ontario

601/Corvair

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marinegunner(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:19 pm Post subject: 601 Aileron Lock / Rudder Lock?

I was looking at my CH 600 ailerons and elevator while working on the

airplane today. For a few weeks I have been trying to determine the

best way to "tie-down" both. Whatever I do should be both easy to use

and pretty secure. Since my airplane only has a center stick, my

solution will probably be this:

Fashion a plate that will firmly attach to both the right and left

cockpit walls. Fasten somewhere near the Floor Stiffener; Gusset; &

side skin areas. Have a reinforced hole that will easily hold a good

bungee. Then hook one end to the new sidewall fastner and the other to

a sturdy bracket attached to the control stick. There would be two,

one pulling forward and to right, the other forward and to the left.

With equal bungees, there should be a steady action to effectively

hold the stick forward and centered. Anyone done something like this

and have a picture? After all of that I will most likely fashion gust

locks for ailerons. Not sure about rudder yet - might be real hard to

make effective gust lock for the rudder.

Currently I have the stick held forward by attaching around stick and

to outer vertical part of each outer rudder pedal. Not sure about the

strength and effectiveness here, so shall attempt to rectrify this

weekend. Good ideas will help.



On 8/31/06, Tommy Walker <twalker(at)cableone.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 A 601XL at my airport (25A), sustained just the type of damage you are

 concerned about.  The owner had no gust locks and wind damaged the right

 aileron.  He has since fashioned gust locks for the ailerons and elevator.



 I can make a picture next time I'm out  to the airport if you like.



 Tommy Walker in Alabama

 Do Not Archive



 --------

 Tommy Walker





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=58711#58711




	




-- 

Semper Fi,

Steven R. Hulland

CH 600 Taildragger

Amado, AZ



This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies

scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help

insure virus free email and attachments.

David X

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 154
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: 601 Aileron Lock / Rudder Lock?

Honestly, I think simpler is better. Two bungee cords tied from stick to two rudder pedals. If a center stick, one cord to each set of rudder pedals.



One other poster said he was doing it that way for 11 years with no issues. I've been doing it for the last year. On a recent cross-country, it was tied down in 55 knot gusts (Kansas thunderstorm) with no issues whatsoever. The winds were strong enough to push the rudder a few inches to one side, but the nose bungee kept that in check. The elevator and ailerons were near solid.



I like the bungee because it allows for some spring and play under heavy gusts without giving so much as to cause an issue.



For what its worth.



[quote="marinegunner(at)gmail.com"]There would be two,

one pulling forward and to right, the other forward and to the left.

With equal bungees, there should be a steady action to effectively

hold the stick forward and centered. [quote]

_________________
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE

gboothe(at)calply.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 5:45 am Post subject: 601 Aileron Lock / Rudder Lock?

Dino,  

   

Nice “sketch”. Who needs a picture!?  

     

Gary Boothe 

 Cool, CA 

 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 

 Tail done, wings done, working on c-section       

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dino Bortolin

 Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 10:02 AM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: 601 Aileron Lock / Rudder Lock?  

  

           

I saw a very simple control lock on a 601 at Oshkosh. I can't recall the builder's name, but he was based at Osh. Unfortunately I didn't take a picture of the lock. I drew up a sketch (attached) that should give you the idea. The dimensions are approximate; some amount of 'eyeball engineering' is required. I think he had one on each outboard end of the elevator, and the flaps were retracted with another between each flap and aileron.

 

 Dino Bortolin

 La Salle, Ontario

 601/Corvair  

  

  

   

  

  

        [quote][b]

dbortol

Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 46

Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:02 am Post subject: Re: 601 Aileron Lock / Rudder Lock?

Thanks Gary, I hope it will be useful. I remembered after sending it out that the plane I saw it on was an HDS, so it has a fixed trailing edge to lock the ailerons to. On an XL you'd have to raise the flaps (and make sure nobody steps on them, ouch!). 



Dino Bortolin

La Salle, Ontario

XL/Corvair



[quote="gboothe(at)calply.com"]Dino,  

   

Nice “sketch”. Who needs a picture!?  

     

Gary Boothe 

 Cool, CA 

 601 HDSTD, WW Conversion 

 Tail done, wings done, working on c-section       

  

[b]From:[/b] owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]Dino Bortolin

 [b]Sent:[/b] Thursday, August 31, 2006 10:02 AM

 [b]To:[/b] zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 [b]Subject:[/b] Re: 601 Aileron Lock / Rudder Lock?  

  

           

I saw a very simple control lock on a 601 at Oshkosh. I can't recall the builder's name, but he was based at Osh. Unfortunately I didn't take a picture of the lock. I drew up a sketch (attached) that should give you the idea. The dimensions are approximate; some amount of 'eyeball engineering' is required. I think he had one on each outboard end of the elevator, and the flaps were retracted with another between each flap and aileron.

 

 Dino Bortolin

 La Salle, Ontario

 601/Corvair  

  

  

   

  

  

        [quote][b][/quote]

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