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Oil Pressure question

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dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:36 am Post subject: Oil Pressure question

Thanks for all the answers. Here's today's question, I woke up today and 

taxied to the end of the runway. The oil pressure was around 8 at idle, then 

I took off and climbed to 1k and the oil pressure remained around 12. I 

landed asap. So where do I start now. Yes oil level looks good, no leaks. 

Someone said if you have low oil pressure stop ASAP. I wonder if I let it 

warm up enough on the ground. This is the first day the plane has flown in 

under 95 degrees. I am checking the Rotax manuals now.

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:05 pm Post subject: Oil Pressure question

David, I took this right from Leading Edge Airfoils online manual:



 Oil pressure: 											

 											 NORMAL 58 psi (4 bar) (at) 5500 rpm, MAX 72 psi (5 bar), MIN 22 psi (1.5 bar) (at) 2800 rpm

Rick



On 9/5/06, David Key < dhkey(at)msn.com (dhkey(at)msn.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Key" < dhkey(at)msn.com (dhkey(at)msn.com)>



Thanks for all the answers. Here's today's question, I woke up today and

taxied to the end of the runway. The oil pressure was around 8 at idle, then

I took off and climbed to 1k and the oil pressure remained around 12. I 

landed asap. So where do I start now. Yes oil level looks good, no leaks.

Someone said if you have low oil pressure stop ASAP. I wonder if I let it

warm up enough on the ground. This is the first day the plane has flown in 



	


-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:43 pm Post subject: Oil Pressure question

David

  

 I'm in no way a Rotax person but you have a  problem. It could be nothing more than a pressure gage/sender issue but you  don't know that. In general your oil pressure will be high when the engine is  cold even on a 95 degree day. Once it warms it will drop to what is a normal  pressure. The guide line oil pressures for Rotax are similar to  my VW. I wouldn't have continued to run the engine right after start  up with the oil pressure you were seeing. If my oil pressures don't start  their normal climb to 65-70 lbs at cold idle I would shut the engine down NOW.  You need to find out why this is happening.

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIc  

 [quote]   ---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:28 pm Post subject: Oil Pressure question

The oil pressure was around 8 at idle, then

| I took off and climbed to 1k and the oil pressure remained around 

12. I

| landed asap. So where do I start now.



David K:



Was wondering why you did not shut the engine down as soon as you 

started it and saw that the oil pressure was 8 psi at idle?



To me, that would have been the time to be alarmed, not 1000 feet agl.



Could be:



1-in op sender, gauge, EIS, or what ever you are using.



2-put a mechanical oil pressure gauge on it and see what kind of oil 

pressure you actually have.



3-double check you hoses.  You are working with vacuum on the inlet 

side and 3-5 psi on the return line to the tank.  A tight bend can 

reduce the volume of oil flow considerably.



4-try not to commit to flight when the instruments are not in the 

green.  



5-low and no oil pressure will kill a 912 quicker than anything else.



Take care,



john h

mkIII



PS:  Normal oil pressure, hot (normal) engine and oil temp, is about 

40 psi.  22 psi is minimum at idle.

Use your Rotax Operators Manual and/or go on line to Kodiak and use 

their manuals.  I wouldn't  use the CPS or LEAF catalogs unless it was 

a last resort and nothing else was available.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:44 pm Post subject: Oil Pressure question

Ok, I'd like to tell you a complex thing I did, but the oil filter came a 

little loose and I tightened it and all was good again. Got in an hour at 

sunset.

[quote]From: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Oil Pressure question

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 17:22:16 -0400



David



I'm in no way a Rotax person but you have a problem. It could be nothing 

more than a pressure gage/sender issue but you don't know that. In general 

your oil pressure will be high when the engine is cold even on a 95 degree 

day. Once it warms it will drop to what is a normal pressure. The guide 

line oil pressures for Rotax are similar to my VW. I wouldn't have 

continued to run the engine right after start up with the oil pressure you 

were seeing. If my oil pressures don't start their normal climb to 65-70 

lbs at cold idle I would shut the engine down NOW. You need to find out why 

this is happening.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIc

   ---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:13 pm Post subject: Oil Pressure question

| Ok, I'd like to tell you a complex thing I did, but the oil filter 

came a

| little loose and I tightened it and all was good again. Got in an 

hour at

| sunset.

David K:



How did the oil filter get a little loose?



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:46 pm Post subject: Oil Pressure question

Good question. The DAR wanted me to put a worm gear on it and safty wire it. 

That was the last time it was checked by hand. I took both the worm gear and 

the safty wire off and now I will check it by hand on each preflight. It 

looked tight each time I looked at it because the saftywire was tight but 

the worm gear had slipped or wasn't on tight to begin with, can't be certian 

now. There wasn't a drip of oil on the filter so someone must of been right 

that there is a negative pressure there and nothing was pushing oil out.



Also I put reflex in the flaps and ailerions and have a much better crusie, 

not to mention a much better stall. It pitches up in the stall now and it's 

easy to see and feel.



The trim tab I built was only one bay tall and you were right that's not 

enough. I've got a 45degree angle in it and still have a lot of right rudder 

in a 5k cruise. Takeoffs are much better even with one bay. So I was 

building it to two bays tall and everyone at the airport said there's no way 

that's right. Don't put that on. There's no such thing as a plane that needs 

a trim tab that big. Don't do it that way. Well we were right and now I get 

to do it again.



There are less than 10 hours on the plane.

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Oil Pressure question

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 20:11:48 -0500






  | Ok, I'd like to tell you a complex thing I did, but the oil filter

came a

| little loose and I tightened it and all was good again. Got in an

hour at

| sunset.

David K:



How did the oil filter get a little loose?



john h

mkIII

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 6:11 pm Post subject: Oil Pressure question

| Good question. The DAR wanted me to put a worm gear on it and safty 

wire it.

| That was the last time it was checked by hand.



David K:



Glad you made out ok.  Always a first time for everything.  However, I 

have never had an oil filter release on a 912.  I tighten them by 

hand, as instructed, 3/4 turn after the gasket makes contact with the 

base.  In all cases, I have to use the oil filter wrench to loosen 

them up.  Gets to be a mess when I am on a cross country and do not 

have my handy oil filter wrench.  Usually end up punching a hole in 

the filter with a big screw driver to crack it lose.



Don't know if you have a buncha "experienced" strap hangers at your 

airport or not.  But..........sounds as if you do.  I can assure you, 

there is nothing wrong with a mkIII that requires a large trim tab, 

such as the one I finally put on my mkIII.  Just happens to be the 

nature of the beast.



Glad the aileron, flap, reflex made your mkIII fly better.



john h

mkIII



PS:  If I listened to all the strap hangers, I'd still be on the 

ground waiting to fly.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Jim Baker

Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 181
Location: Sayre, PA

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:16 pm Post subject: Oil Pressure question

 	  Quote: 	
		   tighten them by 

 hand, as instructed, 3/4 turn after the gasket makes contact with the 

 base.  In all cases, I have to use the oil filter wrench to loosen 

 them up.  


	


A bit of Dow Corning DC-4 on the gasket surface will make the 

job much easier at removal time.....



Jim Baker

580.788.2779

Elmore City, OK

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:22 pm Post subject: Oil Pressure question

| A bit of Dow Corning DC-4 on the gasket surface will make the

| job much easier at removal time.....

|

| Jim Baker



Jim B:



Afraid it might get too easy to remove.  Just as soon keep it 

difficult, since I do not use any mechanical means for safetying it.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:36 pm Post subject: Oil Pressure question

John,

If you only knew what I go through with the strap hangers... almost daily... 

My problem is I'm nice and I listen. They all don't like my plane for dozens 

of reasons and the newest will be that if it needs that sized trim tab then 

it aint designed right. I get a new reason not to like it every three days. 

I live on the airport so the neighbors are the strap hangers, they come by 

like a small stream all day and night. I'm not sure what happened to 

everyone else when I decided to build a plane, but they didn't get smarter. 

You should of seen what happened when I ask for a second pair of eyes while 

I calculated CG. I didn't ask  how to do it, I ask for someone to watch me 

while I did it. It got really spooky in seconds as the ideas and the beer 

flowed. One guy said I had to take everything out and weigh it, he owns the 

airport!!! I ask him very gently, don't you think the scales take into 

account everything in the airplane. He still didn't get it, I dropped it, 

while maintaining a huge silent concern for the people that didn't 

understand that. I have sympathy for anyone in the building process that has 

to go through that crap. I'm very surprised at the abundance of inaccurate 

advise and the willingness of people to share it. I used to think that 

anyone could build a Kolb, it's a very simple plane. Now I know that it's a 

huge accomplishment and few have the knowlege to do it.



I realize now that the oil pressure was totally out of range and I shouldn't 

of flown it. I am still new with the plane and learning the numbers. It is 

normal for my EIS to show the red light when I am at low RPM's like while 

taxiing. I set the limits based on flying limits. Now I know that the 

numbers today were way too low. Wont happen again. Thanks for your concern.



 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Oil Pressure question

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 21:10:43 -0500






  | Good question. The DAR wanted me to put a worm gear on it and safty

wire it.

| That was the last time it was checked by hand.



David K:



Glad you made out ok.  Always a first time for everything.  However, I

have never had an oil filter release on a 912.  I tighten them by

hand, as instructed, 3/4 turn after the gasket makes contact with the

base.  In all cases, I have to use the oil filter wrench to loosen

them up.  Gets to be a mess when I am on a cross country and do not

have my handy oil filter wrench.  Usually end up punching a hole in

the filter with a big screw driver to crack it lose.



Don't know if you have a buncha "experienced" strap hangers at your

airport or not.  But..........sounds as if you do.  I can assure you,

there is nothing wrong with a mkIII that requires a large trim tab,

such as the one I finally put on my mkIII.  Just happens to be the

nature of the beast.



Glad the aileron, flap, reflex made your mkIII fly better.



john h

mkIII



PS:  If I listened to all the strap hangers, I'd still be on the

ground waiting to fly.

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:47 am Post subject: Oil Pressure question

David,



..It pitches up in the stall now and it's easy to see and feel....



Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. Are you saying that when it stalls 

the nose pitches up? Or are you saying that when pitching up the nose 

(using elevator) that it stalls? If the nose pitches up in response to 

a stall, rather than as the cause of the stall, you have a problem.



After a stall, nose should fall down and if the wings are fairly level 

and you are not yawed to badly, the airplane will start flying again 

immediately. If it automatically pitches up in response to a stall, 

this is dangerous, perhaps being caused by a way too aft CG.



I hope I misunderstood you.



Thom in Buffalo

do not archive

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:20 am Post subject: Oil Pressure question

Restated...

When I pull back on the stick the plane pitches up then stalls. It didn't 

pitch up much before.



do not archive

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Thom Riddle <jtriddle(at)adelphia.net>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Oil Pressure question

Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 07:47:16 -0400



David,



...It pitches up in the stall now and it's easy to see and feel....



Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. Are you saying that when it stalls the 

nose pitches up? Or are you saying that when pitching up the nose (using 

elevator) that it stalls? If the nose pitches up in response to a stall, 

rather than as the cause of the stall, you have a problem.



After a stall, nose should fall down and if the wings are fairly level and 

you are not yawed to badly, the airplane will start flying again 

immediately. If it automatically pitches up in response to a stall, this is 

dangerous, perhaps being caused by a way too aft CG.



I hope I misunderstood you.



Thom in Buffalo

do not archive

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:44 am Post subject: Oil Pressure question

David, Have you done a weght and balance check?



Rick



On 9/6/06, David Key <dhkey(at)msn.com (dhkey(at)msn.com)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Key" <dhkey(at)msn.com (dhkey(at)msn.com)>



Restated...

When I pull back on the stick the plane pitches up then stalls. It didn't

pitch up much before. 



do not archive

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Thom Riddle <jtriddle(at)adelphia.net (jtriddle(at)adelphia.net)>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

To:  kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Oil Pressure question

Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 07:47:16 -0400



David,



...It pitches up in the stall now and it's easy to see and feel.... 



Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. Are you saying that when it stalls the

nose pitches up? Or are you saying that when pitching up the nose (using

elevator) that it stalls? If the nose pitches up in response to a stall, 

rather than as the cause of the stall, you have a problem.



After a stall, nose should fall down and if the wings are fairly level and

you are not yawed to badly, the airplane will start flying again 

immediately. If it automatically pitches up in response to a stall, this is

dangerous, perhaps being caused by a way too aft CG.



I hope I misunderstood you.



Thom in Buffalo

 
	


-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:46 am Post subject: Oil Pressure question

Darn, hit the send button too soon. I meant to say, have you done a weight and balance at forward and aft extremes?



Rick



On 9/6/06, David Key < dhkey(at)msn.com (dhkey(at)msn.com)> wrote:[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Key" < dhkey(at)msn.com (dhkey(at)msn.com)>



Restated...

When I pull back on the stick the plane pitches up then stalls. It didn't

pitch up much before.



do not archive

[quote]From: Thom Riddle < jtriddle(at)adelphia.net (jtriddle(at)adelphia.net)>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com  (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Oil Pressure question

Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 07:47:16 -0400



David,



...It pitches up in the stall now and it's easy to see and feel....



Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. Are you saying that when it stalls the 

nose pitches up? Or are you saying that when pitching up the nose (using

elevator) that it stalls? If the nose pitches up in response to a stall,

rather than as the cause of the stall, you have a problem. 



After a stall, nose should fall down and if the wings are fairly level and

you are not yawed to badly, the airplane will start flying again

immediately. If it automatically pitches up in response to a stall, this is 

when you live at the airport.   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:17 am Post subject: Oil Pressure question

yes. Please contact me directly for direct questions.

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Oil Pressure question

Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 08:44:40 -0500



David, Have you done a weght and balance check?



Rick



On 9/6/06, David Key <dhkey(at)msn.com> wrote:

>

>

>

>Restated...

>When I pull back on the stick the plane pitches up then stalls. It didn't

>pitch up much before.

>

>do not archive

> >From: Thom Riddle <jtriddle(at)adelphia.net>

> >Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

> >To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

> >Subject: Re: Oil Pressure question

> >Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 07:47:16 -0400

> >

> >David,

> >

> >...It pitches up in the stall now and it's easy to see and feel....

> >

> >Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. Are you saying that when it stalls the

> >nose pitches up? Or are you saying that when pitching up the nose (using

> >elevator) that it stalls? If the nose pitches up in response to a stall,

> >rather than as the cause of the stall, you have a problem.

> >

> >After a stall, nose should fall down and if the wings are fairly level

>and

> >you are not yawed to badly, the airplane will start flying again

> >immediately. If it automatically pitches up in response to a stall, this

>is

> >dangerous, perhaps being caused by a way too aft CG.

> >

> >I hope I misunderstood you.

> >

> >Thom in Buffalo

> >do not archive

>

--

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:39 am Post subject: Oil Pressure question

No I did a weight and balance on the plane which gives me the forward and 

aft extremes. Here's are the numbers.

13.2	Extreem Forward CG



23.2	Extreem Back CG



 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Oil Pressure question

Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 08:46:31 -0500



Darn, hit the send button too soon. I meant to say, have you done a weight

and balance at forward and aft extremes?



Rick



On 9/6/06, David Key <dhkey(at)msn.com> wrote:

>

>

>

>Restated...

>When I pull back on the stick the plane pitches up then stalls. It didn't

>pitch up much before.

>

>do not archive

> >From: Thom Riddle <jtriddle(at)adelphia.net>

> >Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

> >To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

> >Subject: Re: Oil Pressure question

> >Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 07:47:16 -0400

> >

> >David,

> >

> >...It pitches up in the stall now and it's easy to see and feel....

> >

> >Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. Are you saying that when it stalls the

> >nose pitches up? Or are you saying that when pitching up the nose (using

> >elevator) that it stalls? If the nose pitches up in response to a stall,

> >rather than as the cause of the stall, you have a problem.

> >

> >After a stall, nose should fall down and if the wings are fairly level

>and

> >you are not yawed to badly, the airplane will start flying again

> >immediately. If it automatically pitches up in response to a stall, this

>is

> >dangerous, perhaps being caused by a way too aft CG.

> >

> >I hope I misunderstood you.

> >

> >Thom in Buffalo

> >do not archive

>

--

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.

Ed in JXN

Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:04 am Post subject: Oil Pressure question

Hi Dave,



        Welcome to the brotherhood of aviation.  I feel for you, with all 

the unsought opinions.  That's why it's called (by some) the "Aircraft 

Oglers and Polishers Association".  Sounds like you're doing just fine, 

listen politely and do it your way when no one's around.  How long have you 

been married?  ;^)



Ed in JXN

MkII/503

---

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 365

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:57 am Post subject: Oil Pressure question

In a message dated 9/6/2006 11:06:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, edchmiel(at)mindspring.com writes:

 

  	  Quote: 	
		  Welcome to the brotherhood of aviation.  I feel for you, with all 

 the unsought opinions. 	


 

 Good point Ed, I listen to people that build and fly their own AC. You will get enough differing opinions in that arena alone.

 steve b  [quote][b]

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:13 am Post subject: Oil Pressure question

David, I'm posting to the group because I just want to make sure I understand this correctly. From page 17 of the Mk III plans forward limit is 16.5" aft limit is 23.1". This is the MkIII classic. Are we on the same page? 



Rick



On 9/6/06, David Key <dhkey(at)msn.com (dhkey(at)msn.com)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Key" <dhkey(at)msn.com (dhkey(at)msn.com)>



No I did a weight and balance on the plane which gives me the forward and

aft extremes. Here's are the numbers. 

13.2    Extreem Forward CG



23.2    Extreem Back CG



 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Richard Girard" <jindoguy(at)gmail.com (jindoguy(at)gmail.com)>

Reply-To:  kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Re: Oil Pressure question

Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 08:46:31 -0500



Darn, hit the send button too soon. I meant to say, have you done a weight 

and balance at forward and aft extremes?



Rick



On 9/6/06, David Key <dhkey(at)msn.com (dhkey(at)msn.com)> wrote:

>

>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Key" < dhkey(at)msn.com (dhkey(at)msn.com)>

>

>Restated...

>When I pull back on the stick the plane pitches up then stalls. It didn't

>pitch up much before.

>

 >>do not archive
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  >

>

> >From: Thom Riddle <jtriddle(at)adelphia.net (jtriddle(at)adelphia.net)>

> >Reply-To:  kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

> >To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

> >Subject: Re: Oil Pressure question

> >Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 07:47:16 -0400 

> >

> >David,

> >

> >...It pitches up in the stall now and it's easy to see and feel....

> >

> >Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. Are you saying that when it stalls the 

> >nose pitches up? Or are you saying that when pitching up the nose (using

> >elevator) that it stalls? If the nose pitches up in response to a stall,

> >rather than as the cause of the stall, you have a problem. 

> >

> >After a stall, nose should fall down and if the wings are fairly level

>and

> >you are not yawed to badly, the airplane will start flying again

> >immediately. If it automatically pitches up in response to a stall, this 

>is

> >dangerous, perhaps being caused by a way too aft CG.

> >

> >I hope I misunderstood you.

> >

> >Thom in Buffalo

> >do not archive 

>

--

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport. 

-- 
	


Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

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