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wimhuisman(at)gmail.com Guest
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Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:19 pm Post subject: Kitfox and Fuel Starvation |
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Kitfox and Fuel starvation, happens real easily.
Not a contributor normally, but this one is important. I fly N77LR here in Holland, after buying it from Leo in 2003.
Always check Fuel Caps carefully after Topping off.
Happened to when I bought my Kifox early on. If you screw on the Fuelcap slightly wrong (don't latch both lips on Cap or forget it), only one side of the fuelcap closes, rubber gasket does not seal, and now that side is leaking air, not creating pressure inside the tank.
After take off the good side (other tank) is creating pressure, pushing all fuel to the bad leaking side ( Now leaking fuel instade on air in a rapid GPH).
You can notice real fast, since One tank is completely full (the bad one) and the other side rushes empty ( the one creating air pressure).
It takes no more as 15 Min to empty more as one tank, so hurry and find an airport.
Wim Huisman
N77LR
Holland
[quote][b]
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dosmythe(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:57 pm Post subject: Kitfox and Fuel Starvation |
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Wim,
It sounds like this actually happened to you. Right?. As I said before, my friend left his cap off twice and I don't remember him talking about loosing excessive fuel. Just curious.
Don Smythe
[quote] ---
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wimhuisman(at)gmail.com Guest
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Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 1:34 pm Post subject: Kitfox and Fuel Starvation |
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Don,
It did happen to me , my Kitfox series V has Tubes on the fuelcaps creating Airpressure inside the tanks,ensuring positive Fuelflow.
If 1 tube is (partially) occluded , the only thing happening is Uneven pressure distribution, and uneven filling of tanks during flight.
If one cap leaks, or is missing , pressure created during level flight, pushes Fuel from the Good Tank to the one that is leaking, emptying all your gas.
Maybe speed , creating higher pressure could make a difference.
My Lycoming makes me fly 120MPH . I lost 10 Gallons in 15 Min.
Wim Huisman
On 9/10/06, Don Smythe <dosmythe(at)cox.net (dosmythe(at)cox.net)> wrote: [quote] Wim,
It sounds like this actually happened to you. Right?. As I said before, my friend left his cap off twice and I don't remember him talking about loosing excessive fuel. Just curious.
Don Smythe
[quote] ---
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Fox5flyer Guest
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Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 1:49 pm Post subject: Kitfox and Fuel Starvation |
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Don, I've been watching this exchange and just to throw my 2 rubles in here I'll add mine. After fueling I placed a cap on with only one tab holding it and the pressure from the high side (tight cap) pushed the fuel out of the loose cap very quickly. Fortunately the cap stayed connected, but I lost about 5 gallons in less than the 15 minutes of flight from when I took off, figured it out, and returned to base. I now make rechecking the caps after refueling my last step. A simple step of just reaching up and grabbing the pitot while giving it a twist will tell you if it's on correctly or not.
Deke
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dosmythe(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:59 pm Post subject: Kitfox and Fuel Starvation |
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Deke,
Well, I'm now convinced that a loose or missing cap can cause this. I used to talk to Michael Harter every single morning on our Government phone tie line and he never mentioned loosing any fuel. Based on that, I had to question if the fuel would "really" siphon out. I guess it will and maybe Michael just didn't talk about that part. It's too bad I can't pick up the phone and yell at him like I used to.
Don Smythe
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dosmythe(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:07 pm Post subject: Kitfox and Fuel Starvation |
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Wim,
This is good news that might help the rest of us do a better check on the fuel caps. I might have been misinformed about Michael Harters missing cap episode.
I have recessed non vent caps on my tanks with "O" ring seals. They don't leak and I don't have the problem with the little ears on the standard caps not catching or sealing but, I could forget to screw them in during refueling.
Thanks,
Don Smythe
[quote] ---
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dave(at)cfisher.com Guest
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Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:44 pm Post subject: Kitfox and Fuel Starvation |
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I have noticed in the last 10 hours or so of flying that my right wing is getting a small fuel trail staining the top of the white wing from the fuel filler neak area.
So today I blew into the the pitot tube after filling the tank and noticed a little leak around the filler neck where it goes into wing.
I took some rand-o-bond superglue and put over top of the leak. I just flew for 30 mins just tonight and no sign of leakage and the blow test shows no leak .
Hopefully it is fixed now .
Dave
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janderson412(at)hotmail.c Guest
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Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:09 pm Post subject: Kitfox and Fuel Starvation |
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Yes, I guess the speed you fly has a baring here, lot more pressure at
100kts that at 80...??
From: "Willem Huisman" <wimhuisman(at)gmail.com>
Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox and Fuel Starvation
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 14:33:24 -0700
Don,
It did happen to me , my Kitfox series V has Tubes on the fuelcaps creating
Airpressure inside the tanks,ensuring positive Fuelflow.
If 1 tube is (partially) occluded , the only thing happening is Uneven
pressure distribution, and uneven filling of tanks during flight.
If one cap leaks, or is missing , pressure created during level flight,
pushes Fuel from the Good Tank to the one that is leaking, emptying all your
gas.
Maybe speed , creating higher pressure could make a difference.
My Lycoming makes me fly 120MPH . I lost 10 Gallons in 15 Min.
Wim Huisman
On 9/10/06, Don Smythe <dosmythe(at)cox.net> wrote:
[quote]
Wim,
It sounds like this actually happened to you. Right?. As I said
before, my friend left his cap off twice and I don't remember him talking
about loosing excessive fuel. Just curious.
Don Smythe
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Michel
![](images/avatars/24951973843c379233f66b.gif)
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 966 Location: Norway
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Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:22 am Post subject: Kitfox and Fuel Starvation |
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OFF TOPIC
Quote: | From: Willem Huisman [wimhuisman(at)gmail.com]
Not a contributor normally, but this one is important.
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Do you fly your Kitfox as Experimental or Ultralight, Wim? Where are you based in The Netherlands?
I am just back from a three days fly-in at Heide-B�sum EDXB _ Germany, for the program PocketFMS users. We had, of course, a lot of Dutch pilots coming. Even a trike from Lelystad.
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
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pwmac(at)sisna.com Guest
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Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:31 am Post subject: Kitfox and Fuel Starvation |
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Besides what you said below -- The under the wing "vent" pressurizes
the tank more that the pitot of the stock cap. This under the wing
design is the classical way for the tank to be pressurized and there
are good reasons why the spam can designers used it. This design
would lessen the fuel loss from the missing cap but for sure fuel
will still be lost due to the differences in area that the higher
pressure cannot overcome. My friend with a C182 had a leaking/broken
cap gasket and he lost about 1/3 of a tank in a 100 mile flight.
According to Frank, at Skystar, the new design using the poly tanks
used the cap Don described and the below the wing "vent". To bad the
company dumped before production could be implemented.
Anyway this mod is highly worthwhile IMO.
Regards, Paul
======================
At 05:07 PM 9/10/2006, you wrote:
[quote]Wim,
This is good news that might help the rest of us do a better
check on the fuel caps. I might have been misinformed about
Michael Harters missing cap episode.
I have recessed non vent caps on my tanks with "O" ring
seals. They don't leak and I don't have the problem with the
little ears on the standard caps not catching or sealing but, I
could forget to screw them in during refueling.
Thanks,
Don Smythe
---
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dosmythe(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:23 am Post subject: Kitfox and Fuel Starvation |
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Paul,
Thank you. At least, I did something good. I believe modifying the
existing cap/vent to recessed units and a bottom vent could be done fairly
easy even with the wings covered and painted. Would take a little thinking
and design.
Don Smythe
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smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho Guest
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Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:48 pm Post subject: Kitfox and Fuel Starvation |
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Care to elaborated on that design Don? I'd like to
see how it could be done easier, since I don't like
these big clunky caps and messy vents either.
You've got the lead on this one too....
Kurt S. S-5
--- Don Smythe <dosmythe(at)cox.net> wrote:
Quote: | Paul,
Thank you. At least, I did something good. I
believe modifying the
existing cap/vent to recessed units and a bottom
vent could be done fairly
easy even with the wings covered and painted. Would
take a little thinking
and design.
Don Smythe
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dosmythe(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:44 am Post subject: Kitfox and Fuel Starvation |
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Kurt,
Well, I haven't put too much time in figuring out how to do it but
basically, you would have to start by cutting out the existing filler with a
hole about 5" in diameter. It takes a hole that big to get all the metal
that's epoxied into the tank. Next, install an inspection plate on the
bottom of the wing just outboard of the tank and adjacent to the hole you
cut. Now you can work inside the tank (through the hole) and reach the
outside end (inspection hole) for installing the new vent hole/fitting at
the outboard top end. I installed a 1/4" thick boss on the inside of the
tank where the new vent hole get's punched. May have to predrill the hole
since a drill motor might not fit the hole. Wheeee,,,, Now, go pull the
wing tip and run a piece of 1/4" or maybe 3/8" aluminum line incased in poly
all the way through the wing. Fabricate a 90 degree fitting at the wing tip
end and go out the bottom, bend forward and you are done.
Mine was installed prior to covering so of course, it was much easier.
Mine comes out the bottom about half way to the wing tip. The only problem
I have is when I taxi with full fuel and do a turn, fuel will pee out the
one vent or the other depending on which way I'm turning. The further you
go out the wing (dihedral) the higher the vent is. On the other hand, it
might be just as good to put the vent near the tank and live with the little
bit of peeing during taxi.
Maybe this ain't so easy afterall but, it could be done if a person just
had to do it. Attaching the new recessed filler to the big hole would
largely depend on what style filler you have. I epoxied in a large donut on
the inside of the tank hole. This gave me a flange to attach the new
filler. Then using epoxy and feather light fair everything back in.
Just a quick thought
Don Smythe
---
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pwmac(at)sisna.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:41 am Post subject: Kitfox and Fuel Starvation |
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Here is what I did and I think it is easier that Dons method for a retro fit.
After having the parts in hand it just cut a hole the size to fit
but left enough tank so the flange fit on top of the tank. This
method leave some of the old flange imbedded in the tank top. Then I
chamfered the mounting holes and made very rough gouges on the back
of the flange so when I bonded the unit to the tank it would have
lots of grip. Some shaping of the flange was required to make it fit
flush with the tank. I did not use screws to clamp the flange, but
you may want to? If so remember that each screw is a possible leak path.
Then I drilled a hole in the tank end and ran my 1/4" vent to a
location near the filler - then down. I used safety wire to hold the
vent pipe to the top of the tank. The safety wire was brought up so
as to be under the flange for good electrical contact. The lump of
twisted wire make contact with the flange for the ground. Then I used
a clamp to the vent line to allow a wire to go to the spar. I even
drilled small holed in the side of this new vent to allow a higher
gas level. Read Dons comment of venting at the wing tip for a better
method. My vent terminated directly straight down.
Then I glued it all together, using 3m epoxy. Probably not the best
choice but that is what Skystar said to use. Don did more research
after this and came up with West epoxy. Do your home work and see
what epoxy is the best now days.
I used some west epoxy filler to smooth everything out at the cap area.
ACS has many more filler choices these days for flush un vented cap
assemblies. I used a UD-3-F about $40? Mine came with holes in the
flange. The cap is lever operated and has a fat alcohol compatible Viton o-ring
See the attached build picture. Notice that the quick drain has not
been deleted at photo time. Alas, if you study the pic carefully you
can see the thin Al strip coming from the filler neck It is the
ground because the safety wire on this tank had poor contact. I
secured the Al strip with a tiny AL wood screw then sanded epoxy
filler flush. So much for good intentions
Regards, Paul
=================
At 05:43 AM 9/12/2006, you wrote:
[quote]
Kurt,
Well, I haven't put too much time in figuring out how to do it
but basically, you would have to start by cutting out the existing
filler with a hole about 5" in diameter. It takes a hole that big
to get all the metal that's epoxied into the tank. Next, install
an inspection plate on the bottom of the wing just outboard of the
tank and adjacent to the hole you cut. Now you can work inside the
tank (through the hole) and reach the outside end (inspection hole)
for installing the new vent hole/fitting at the outboard top
end. I installed a 1/4" thick boss on the inside of the tank where
the new vent hole get's punched. May have to predrill the hole
since a drill motor might not fit the hole. Wheeee,,,, Now, go
pull the wing tip and run a piece of 1/4" or maybe 3/8" aluminum
line incased in poly all the way through the wing. Fabricate a 90
degree fitting at the wing tip end and go out the bottom, bend
forward and you are done.
Mine was installed prior to covering so of course, it was much
easier. Mine comes out the bottom about half way to the wing
tip. The only problem I have is when I taxi with full fuel and do
a turn, fuel will pee out the one vent or the other depending on
which way I'm turning. The further you go out the wing (dihedral)
the higher the vent is. On the other hand, it might be just as
good to put the vent near the tank and live with the little bit of
peeing during taxi.
Maybe this ain't so easy afterall but, it could be done if a
person just had to do it. Attaching the new recessed filler to the
big hole would largely depend on what style filler you have. I
epoxied in a large donut on the inside of the tank hole. This gave
me a flange to attach the new filler. Then using epoxy and feather
light fair everything back in.
Just a quick thought
Don Smythe
---
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dosmythe(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:07 am Post subject: Kitfox and Fuel Starvation |
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Paul,
I agree that your install seems much easier. A couple little problems I
ran into was, the tank tops have a little contour to them and the new
fillers were flat. I had to do a little shaving and build up to get a good
fit. Also, do you have a problem with fuel overflow out the vents with them
so close to the tank?
Don Smythe
---
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smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho Guest
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Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:49 am Post subject: Kitfox and Fuel Starvation |
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Thanks Guys,
I'll keep this for later when I can do more complex
changes. Right now I only have time for simple stuff.
Kurt S.
--- PWilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com> wrote:
Quote: | Here is what I did and I think it is easier that
Dons method for a retro fit.
After having the parts in hand it just cut a hole
the size to fit
but left enough tank so the flange fit on top of the
tank. This
method leave some of the old flange imbedded in the
tank top. Then I
chamfered the mounting holes and made very rough
gouges on the back
of the flange so when I bonded the unit to the tank
it would have
lots of grip. Some shaping of the flange was
required to make it fit
flush with the tank. I did not use screws to clamp
the flange, but
you may want to? If so remember that each screw is a
possible leak path.
Then I drilled a hole in the tank end and ran my
1/4" vent to a
location near the filler - then down. I used safety
wire to hold the
vent pipe to the top of the tank. The safety wire
was brought up so
as to be under the flange for good electrical
contact. The lump of
twisted wire make contact with the flange for the
ground. Then I used
a clamp to the vent line to allow a wire to go to
the spar. I even
drilled small holed in the side of this new vent to
allow a higher
gas level. Read Dons comment of venting at the wing
tip for a better
method. My vent terminated directly straight down.
Then I glued it all together, using 3m epoxy.
Probably not the best
choice but that is what Skystar said to use. Don did
more research
after this and came up with West epoxy. Do your home
work and see
what epoxy is the best now days.
I used some west epoxy filler to smooth everything
out at the cap area.
ACS has many more filler choices these days for
flush un vented cap
assemblies. I used a UD-3-F about $40? Mine came
with holes in the
flange. The cap is lever operated and has a fat
alcohol compatible Viton o-ring
See the attached build picture. Notice that the
quick drain has not
been deleted at photo time. Alas, if you study the
pic carefully you
can see the thin Al strip coming from the filler
neck It is the
ground because the safety wire on this tank had poor
contact. I
secured the Al strip with a tiny AL wood screw then
sanded epoxy
filler flush. So much for good intentions
Regards, Paul
=================
At 05:43 AM 9/12/2006, you wrote:
>
<dosmythe(at)cox.net>
>
>Kurt,
> Well, I haven't put too much time in figuring
out how to do it
> but basically, you would have to start by cutting
out the existing
> filler with a hole about 5" in diameter. It takes
a hole that big
> to get all the metal that's epoxied into the tank.
Next, install
> an inspection plate on the bottom of the wing just
outboard of the
> tank and adjacent to the hole you cut. Now you
can work inside the
> tank (through the hole) and reach the outside end
(inspection hole)
> for installing the new vent hole/fitting at the
outboard top
> end. I installed a 1/4" thick boss on the inside
of the tank where
> the new vent hole get's punched. May have to
predrill the hole
> since a drill motor might not fit the hole.
Wheeee,,,, Now, go
> pull the wing tip and run a piece of 1/4" or maybe
3/8" aluminum
> line incased in poly all the way through the wing.
Fabricate a 90
> degree fitting at the wing tip end and go out the
bottom, bend
> forward and you are done.
> Mine was installed prior to covering so of
course, it was much
> easier. Mine comes out the bottom about half way
to the wing
> tip. The only problem I have is when I taxi with
full fuel and do
> a turn, fuel will pee out the one vent or the
other depending on
> which way I'm turning. The further you go out the
wing (dihedral)
> the higher the vent is. On the other hand, it
might be just as
> good to put the vent near the tank and live with
the little bit of
> peeing during taxi.
> Maybe this ain't so easy afterall but, it could
be done if a
> person just had to do it. Attaching the new
recessed filler to the
> big hole would largely depend on what style filler
you have. I
> epoxied in a large donut on the inside of the tank
hole. This gave
> me a flange to attach the new filler. Then using
epoxy and feather
> light fair everything back in.
>
>Just a quick thought
>Don Smythe
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