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What I learned today
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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:11 am Post subject: What I learned today

Listers,



Folks have been bugging me about George for some time.

Over a year perhaps. They keep citing this venue as being

my list and suggested that I have full authority to manage

it in whatever way I want.



I never wanted to view this as "my list". It's always been

my fondest wish that the AeroElectric List be a joint venture,

a quest for the best-we-know-how-to-do. On the other hand,

I cannot tolerate circular arguments that perpetually

hat-dance around the simple-ideas while confusing or

misleading those who come here for practical advice.



I guess I could treat this more like a university job.

It's not my building but it is my classroom. A good

teacher must be open to consider every idea but with

absolute control over classroom decorum and a bulwark

against bad science and individuals who disrupt what

should be a calm, considered sifting of the simple-ideas.



I might liken this effort to that of accident investigator.

The real work begins after the fire trucks, ambulances

and distraught individuals have left. I've had several

occasions where folks who witnessed or were involved

in an accident came over to see what I was doing and

conversationally relive the events from their perspective.

This was always distracting and never yielded useful

information. I never asked any of those folks to leave . . .

after all, the space we shared wasn't my personal property.



In retrospect I'm coming to understand that "space"

comes in many forms and just because someone has

a fundamental right to co exist with us in a physical

space doesn't give them a right to invade (and stir up

trouble) in folk's intellectual space. I promise not

to allow such situations to carry on so long again.

We all have better ways to invest our most precious

commodity, time.



Thank you all for your understanding and support of

the AeroElectric List mission. I learn from the List

every day and I believe it to be a powerful tool for

advancing the state of our art and science in crafting

the best airplanes to have ever flown.

        Bob . . .

      ---------------------------------------------------------

      < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >

      < the authority which determines whether there can be   >

      < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of   >

      < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests     >

      < with experiment.                                      >

      <                            --Lawrence M. Krauss       >

      ---------------------------------------------------------

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:56 am Post subject: What I learned today

For the entertainment value alone, gmcjet is a worthy read.  Granted,

there is nothing lucid, enlightening or illustrative in his posting, but

my gawd, the amusement and entertainment....I actually found myself

laughing out loud reading his postings.  



I suppose, much like the warning labels on products, George should have

to post a preface on all his posts that "This posting contains no useful

information, facts or data and should not be taken seriously as it may

be harmful to your ability to reason and think."



It's understood that it's difficult for Bob to tolerate the endless,

mindless attacks, but hopefully Bob keeps in mind that none of us takes

George seriously....that inestimable task is left to George himself.  In

closing, I can only say, "the mind, in all it's glorious forms,

contortions and distortions, is a wonderous thing to behold--and often

pretty amusing.  Thanks for the laugh George--you made my day!



Chuck Jensen

Do Not Archive

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:39 am Post subject: What I learned today

You want this to be a list of the people, so to speak, so here is my

question.  Out of curiosity what is the actual percentage of requests to

ban George over the entire list membership?  Is this another case of the

vocal minority winning out over the silent majority?



  I for one think George, Paul, and others add value even if it is

veiled in a load of rhetoric and even BS sometimes.  Some of the most

brilliant people in history had social issues.  When I smell something

funny in a post I always have the option of exercising the delete key.

Honestly I spend more time deleting posts of complaints about other

people than I do of the actual people.  Talk about circular arguments.



  One of the problems with email has always been the way a person

interprets emotions in the writing.  Most of the time people are wrong

in their assumptions so it is better to take emotion out and look for

the actual substance of a post.  Less bruised egos and useless replies

that only escalate a situation that probably didn't exist in the first

place.



My $0.02



Michael Sausen

-10 #352 Fuselage



Oh yes, and unlike most of the other posts on this subject.... Do Not

Archive



--

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:11 am Post subject: What I learned today

Good point, Michael.  I rarely ever use the delete key.  Even when

Georges posts one of his long tirades that is obviously a pile of horse

s..t, I always dig through it thinking there might be a pony in there

somewhere.



Chuck Jensen

Do Not Archive

[quote] --

N1DeltaWhiskey(at)comcast
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:00 pm Post subject: What I learned today

Michael,



I agree with your last paragraph.  Of course, one way to handle the 

situation is to not post messages when on has an emotional response.  Both 

of these gentlemen seem to have a difficult time doing that.  We should also 

recognize that Bob sometimes contributes to these ongoing threads by taking 

up the challenges posed by these two individuals (I recognize he feels a 

need to do so to keep misinformation or poor quality from getting a hold). 

It takes two to have an argument.  IMHO, all could benefit from some marshal 

arts training to learn how to brush off challenging posts.



For laughs, I checked messages that I have saved that I thought might be 

useful down the road sometime.  I have counted 3 from George and a dozen or 

so from Paul off this list that I thought might fit that category; that is 

from more than 400 saves.  So for all of their postings, and certainly by 

word count, I think almost anyone on this list has a higher percentage of 

worthwhile content than do either George or Paul.  Also, given the fact that 

their postings are often lengthy it takes a lot of time to get through 

them - not good value.  Not sure that I will miss what might have been 

future postings, but not sure they should be banned (wrong word - they have 

been told to lay off) either.



My $0.01 worth.



Doug Windhorn



P.S.  Now, my pet peeve.  My browser opens a message at the top.  If one has 

important something to say, post it at the top of the message, not the 

bottom (I probably have already read the prior messages, that the meaty 

content is the resolution of a thread - why should I have to wade through 

all the other stuff to get to the conclusion?)  Exception: when responding 

to several subjects with embedded comments, that is OK, but say you are 

doing that at the top.

---

deej(at)deej.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:47 pm Post subject: What I learned today

Doug Windhorn wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



 P.S.  Now, my pet peeve.  My browser opens a message at the top.  If

 one has important something to say, post it at the top of the message,

 not the bottom (I probably have already read the prior messages, that

 the meaty content is the resolution of a thread - why should I have to

 wade through all the other stuff to get to the conclusion?) 

 Exception: when responding to several subjects with embedded comments,

 that is OK, but say you are doing that at the top.


	


Hi Doug,

    As a counter, my pet peeve is when people post things at the top... 

*grin*  My brain processes things easier when it is laid out in order,

from top to bottom, and I like to have the context of the previous

messages listed out before the replies, which makes things MUCH easier

to understand when going back to reference that saved e-mail, or when

reading through the archives.  Reading from bottom to top tends to get

very confusing...



    So, there are two sides to every coin, I guess.  



-Dj



do not archive



-- 

Dj Merrill - N1JOV

Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118

http://econ.duke.edu/~deej/sportsman/



"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an 

airplane."  --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:21 pm Post subject: What I learned today

At 11:36 AM 9/13/2006 -0500, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

<rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>



   You want this to be a list of the people, so to speak, so here is my

question.  Out of curiosity what is the actual percentage of requests to

ban George over the entire list membership?  Is this another case of the

vocal minority winning out over the silent majority?


	


   This is not a democracy. The decision to ask George to leave

   was mine alone and I stand by it . . . his nugget/noise

   ratio was simply too low to invest any more time on it.



   Somebody asked for "a vote" but that was after I'd made

   the decision and no amount of voting one way or another

   would have altered it.

 	  Quote: 	
		     I for one think George, Paul, and others add value even if it is

veiled in a load of rhetoric and even BS sometimes.  Some of the most

brilliant people in history had social issues.  When I smell something

funny in a post I always have the option of exercising the delete key.

Honestly I spend more time deleting posts of complaints about other

people than I do of the actual people.  Talk about circular arguments.



   One of the problems with email has always been the way a person

interprets emotions in the writing.  Most of the time people are wrong

in their assumptions so it is better to take emotion out and look for

the actual substance of a post.  Less bruised egos and useless replies

that only escalate a situation that probably didn't exist in the first

place.


	


   Words mean things. You may use them to inform, entertain,

   persuade or hurt. The fact that 5% of someone's words fall into

   the first two categories does not justify a toleration of 95%

   falling into the later categories. This is especially true when

   they hat-dance around the core issues of the discussion, never

   participate in the exploration and assembly of simple-ideas,

   and cannot lay foundation for persuasion masquerading

   as information.



   I've participated in many classrooms both up front and

   sitting in the chairs. It's a poor return on investment

   of time to sift through "noise" looking for "nuggets".

   I've left the chairs in a classroom where nugget/noise

   radio was poor. I have assumed responsibility for keeping

   those numbers high in this classroom.



   Assuming one has a common ground in the meaning of written

   words, then interpretation must be based on the words and

   not upon anyone's feelings about the words.  If writers

   never use words intended to hurt, then a reader's feelings

   are his/her own problem. There's no duty on the part

   of a writer to assuage the reader's discomforts other than

   to clarify information. There is risk some folks are hurt

   by words others find "entertaining". Common sense is called

   for . . . it's easy for hurting words to masquerade as

   entertainment. Red Skelton and George Burns could entertain

   and hurt nobody. Much of what passes for entertainment

   today is overtly mean and exacts a toll on liberty of

   others.



   I try to start any conversation with a core belief that

   folks on the other end are looking for clear and useful

   info. They have every right to expect the best possible

   foundations be laid for anything I or anyone else has

   to offer. Anything outside this process is noise and

   should be minimized. Should the noise become overwhelming

   or hurtful, then polite termination is called for.



   Bob . . .

DO NOT ARCHIVE

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:32 am Post subject: Re: What I learned today--The Final Solution

The Final Solution:



(Apologies to Rev. Martin Niemoeller) 



First they banned the discourteous, 

And I didn't speak up because I was a follower. 

Then they banned the insubordinate, 

And I didn't speak up because I was easily cowed by authority. 

Then they came for the passionately contentious, 

And I didn't speak up because I was a follower. 

Then they came for the independent technological thinkers, 

And I didn't speak up because I wasn't an independent thinker. 

Then they came for me, And by that time no one was left to speak up. 



The REAL issue Bob, is that people who disagree are a thousand times more valuable than those who merely follow--albeit the discussion could be more civil--and we seek not to confuse the beginner too much. But you and I are not above being jerks. None of your foils started their interchanges with you in an intemperate tone. They react to what they consider your intransigence and arrogance. And it makes them go bonkers.



When I see that you are prepared to fight seemingly innocuous points like my recent disagreement that "copper is a very active metal" (chapter , I am nonplussed. You obviosly fight to defend territory. Hell, I just thought I would do you a favor. Fool me once....



Bob, you are obviously a man of exceptional talents and a lot of people, including me, and I would guess your difficult list characters, depend on you and respect you.



But don't look for obedience...some of us just can't do it.

 

"What the West really has to offer is honesty. Somehow, in the midst of their horrid history, the best among the Gaijin learned a wonderful lesson. They learned to distrust themselves, to doubt even what they were taught to believe or what their egos make them yearn to see. To know that even truth must be scrutinized, it was a great discovery...."

      -- David Brin, "Dr. Pak's Preschool"

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:42 am Post subject: What I learned today

Obedience? Where did that come from? All Bob -- and I suspect 90% of the

rest of us are asking for -- is simple commonsense courtesy; that

characteristic (also called manners) that allows people to interact for

their common benefit. It requires not turning a technical discussion into a

personal attack; it requires honesty; it requires consideration. It also

requires becoming familiar with the rules of the road for this discussion

group carefully defined and posted by its sponsor, Matt Dralle.



Terry




<emjones(at)charter.net>



<snip>



But don't look for obedience...some of us just can't do it.

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:52 am Post subject: What I learned today

At 08:32 AM 9/14/2006 -0700, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



The Final Solution:



(Apologies to Rev. Martin Niemoeller)



First they banned the discourteous,

And I didn't speak up because I was a follower.

Then they banned the insubordinate,

And I didn't speak up because I was easily cowed by authority.

Then they came for the passionately contentious,

And I didn't speak up because I was a follower.

Then they came for the independent technological thinkers,

And I didn't speak up because I wasn't an independent thinker.

Then they came for me, And by that time no one was left to speak up.



The REAL issue Bob, is that people who disagree are a thousand times more 

valuable than those who merely follow--albeit the discussion could be more 

civil--and we seek not to confuse the beginner too much. But you and I are 

not above being jerks. None of your foils started their interchanges with 

you in an intemperate tone. They react to what they consider your 

intransigence and arrogance. And it makes them go bonkers.


	


    Yup, the popular media outlets are loaded with folks who

    disagree . . . about everything, but offer no "plan"

    of their own. Further, they NEVER answer a direct question

    that might illuminate their lack of understanding or

    emphasizes their willingness to sacrifice the liberties of everyone

    else for the false philanthropy that assuages someone's

    discomforts. And yes, when pressed for specific answers, those

    individuals DO go bonkers. Disagreement adds value ONLY when more

    attractive or more honorable alternatives are offered.



 	  Quote: 	
		  When I see that you are prepared to fight seemingly innocuous points like 

my recent disagreement that "copper is a very active metal" (chapter , I 

am nonplussed. You obviosly fight to defend territory. Hell, I just 

thought I would do you a favor. Fool me once....


	


    Eric, Eric . . . "very" is non-quantified. Disagree

    all you want but the meaning of the phrase is inarguable

    unless you're attempting to but quantified bounds on "little,

    more, a lot, and gobs". Would you feel better if I simply

    wrote, "Copper is a reactive metal"?



 	  Quote: 	
		  Bob, you are obviously a man of exceptional talents and a lot of people, 

including me, and I would guess your difficult list characters, depend on 

you and respect you.



But don't look for obedience...some of us just can't do it.


	


    Eric, you don't seem to have a grasp of the issues

    here. No society of individuals should even consider themselves

    a instrument or benefit of "the people". Every society

    has charter, goals, and acceptable modes of behavior which

    every member is expected to embrace . . . or leave. Nobody

    has a duty to compromise a society's goals to accommodate

    anyone's feelings of exclusion; buy in or get out. One

    may always gather up a society of like minded individuals

    who share alternative goals.



    I cannot help that you've glossed over George's blatant

    dishonorable behavior and his obfuscation of the

    issues. The List IS a society of inclusion but with

    LIMITED tolerance for behavior that does not move the

    mission forward. You seem to mistake an expectation of

    logical, honorable discourse and exchange of simple-ideas

    as a demand for obedience.  How you "feel" about any

    of what transpires is beyond anyone's expectations or

    duty to address. However, if you have thoughts or

    questions about simple-ideas, new inventions or a novel

    philosophy for making our airplanes cost less, fly better,

    last longer, work better, etc. . . . you're most welcome

    and encouraged to join in.



    Bob . . .

Speedy11(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:10 am Post subject: What I learned today

 	  Quote: 	
		    You want this to be a list of the people, so to speak, so here is my

question.  Out of curiosity what is the actual percentage of requests to

ban George over the entire list membership?  Is this another case of the

vocal minority winning out over the silent majority?



  I for one think George, Paul, and others add value even if it is

veiled in a load of rhetoric and even BS sometimes. 	


  

 I agree with Michael Sausen, except that I would add Bob N. to the list of names above.

 George is aggravating sometimes.  Occasionally he isn't.  I believe his comments should not be banned from this forum.

 Hmmm ... I wonder if I'll be banned now.

 Stan Sutterfield

 Do not archive

  [quote][b]

Speedy11(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:23 am Post subject: What I learned today

 	  Quote: 	
		  Doug Windhorn



P.S.  Now, my pet peeve.  My browser opens a message at the top.  If one has 

important something to say, post it at the top of the message, not the 

bottom (I probably have already read the prior messages, that the meaty 

content is the resolution of a thread - why should I have to wade through 

all the other stuff to get to the conclusion?)  Exception: when responding 

to several subjects with embedded comments, that is OK, but say you are 

doing that at the top. 	


  

 And now my pet peeve.  People trying to impose their pet peeves on others.

 The announcement of my pet peeve is likely to have little effect either.

 Stan Sutterfield

  [quote][b]

Speedy11(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:33 am Post subject: What I learned today

"Noise" for one may be "nuggets" for another.  Sitting through a lecture on geometry would cause some to search for nuggets while others would cling to every word.  I cling to every word on this forum.  I then follow up with research or forum questions to confirm and clarify my learning.

 Stan Sutterfield

 Do not archive

  	  Quote: 	
		  It's a poor return on investment

   of time to sift through "noise" looking for "nuggets". 	


 

  [quote][b]

sales(at)6440autoparts.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:35 am Post subject: What I learned today

Delete, delete, delete

 [quote]   ---

sales(at)6440autoparts.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:57 am Post subject: What I learned today

Now I suppose we're going to compare a moderators actions to that of 

the Nazi's. Bob made a decission right or wrong. I'll bet if George wanted 

back on the list he could come up with something creative like rejoining 

under another email address. I'm sorry but the poor horse can't stand much 

more of a beating. Poor old Rev Niemoeller probably turns over in his grave 

every time someone uses his poem in small circumstances. But I'm sure the 

christian he was he would forgive and let it be.     For me I'm going back 

to delete delete delete.



Randy



 	  Quote: 	
		   (Apologies to Rev. Martin Niemoeller)



 First they banned the discourteous,

 And I didn't speak up because I was a follower.

 Then they banned the insubordinate,

 And I didn't speak up because I was easily cowed by authority.

 Then they came for the passionately contentious,

 And I didn't speak up because I was a follower.

 Then they came for the independent technological thinkers,

 And I didn't speak up because I wasn't an independent thinker.

 Then they came for me, And by that time no one was left to speak up.

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:13 am Post subject: What I learned today

Absolutely!  I just assume Bob as it is his forum.  

   

Michael Sausen  

Do not archive  

       

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11(at)aol.com

 Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 12:09 PM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: What I learned today  

  

  

       

   

   	  Quote: 	
		    

  You want this to be a list of the people, so to speak, so here is my

 question.  Out of curiosity what is the actual percentage of requests to

 ban George over the entire list membership?  Is this another case of the

 vocal minority winning out over the silent majority?

 

   I for one think George, Paul, and others add value even if it is

 veiled in a load of rhetoric and even BS sometimes.  	
  

    

   

    

I agree with Michael Sausen, except that I would add Bob N. to the list of names above.  

    

George is aggravating sometimes.  Occasionally he isn't.  I believe his comments should not be banned from this forum.  

    

Hmmm ... I wonder if I'll be banned now.  

    

Stan Sutterfield  

    

Do not archive  

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      [quote][b]

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:39 am Post subject: What I learned today

I think you are confused.  He isn't banned in the sense he is blocked.

Bob simply asked him to leave.  He can still post to the list using the

same ole address.  Also, none of Matt's lists are moderated in the sense

of approving messages before they are allowed.  His lists have been a

very successful experiment in that they are allowed to police

themselves.  Unlike some other lists where moderation is rigidly and

strictly enforced, as far as I have seen Matt rarely gets involved.

Actually blocking someone from this list is at the discretion of Bob or

Matt of course.



  And sorry, but jumping all the way to the other side with the Nazi

comment is just wacky.  We have plenty of references in our current

government so there is no sense in dredging things up from that far back

in history.  



Do not archive



--

Bret Smith

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 178
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:47 am Post subject: What I learned today

Come on, Stan.  

  

 If George had just submitted his vulgar and abusive retorts to  Bob via his PERSONAL email, things would have been fine...But he chose to show  his A## to the entire list, time and time again.

  

 His verbage was clearly a violation of the List  ettiquite.  And I have no interest is reading anyone's  diatribes.

  

 I subscribe to learn how to safely and efficiently wire an  airplane.  I'm interested in everyone's ideas, methods and  techniques.  George just doesn't "play well with others".

  

 Do not archive and don't ban Stan....

  

 Bret

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Bret Smith
RV-9A (Emp)

tonybabb(at)alejandra.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:02 am Post subject: What I learned today

Good morning all,



I'm electronically challenged but have been lurking on this list for a

couple of years now, it's invaluable to me, I learn something from most

posts and the discussions when disagreements occur so thanks to all

especially Bob and the regular contributors like Brian, Eric et al. I agree

with Terry's comments below. It seems to me that if anyone is really

offended by asking GMC and Paul to take off they can always unsubscribe from

this list and maybe start their own. The rest of us I suspect would like to

get back to our electrical systems.



Cheers,



Tony

Velocity SEFG 62% done, 78% to go

www.alejandra.net/velocity



--

nghertner(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:08 pm Post subject: What I learned today

Bob, put a stop to this banter; you guys are driving me nuts.



Lory Ghertner

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