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Filler wars - Part I

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indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:57 am Post subject: Filler wars - Part I

People need to agree on what we are calling each item, 

windscreen/windshield,  cabin top /roof/canopy?



I don't know what you folks are referring to.  My Glider has a canopy made 

completely out of acrylic, plexi glass with an epoxy frame.



The 10's cabin top I hope is made from epoxy resin, but I am not certain 

because unlike the epoxies I've worked with, this large part has a green hue 

which is more typical of polyester resins that I have used.   I don't think 

Van's would use polyester in such an important part as there is much more 

shrinkage with polyester, but we need to know!



As we all know, epoxy filler doesn't stick too well to polyester parts, but 

polyester fillers do stick to epoxy parts.



I will make a very strong suggestion for a polyester based filler product.  

US chemical makes a super lightweight, sands in 15 minutes or less and is 

strong and works great with sandable polyester primers.



US chemicals--Split Second go to:    

http://www.uschem.com/products/index.html



click on USC,Morton,Cargroom products, then to professional putties and then 

find Split Second.



I faired in my nose and canopy of my sailplane a few years ago and did all 

the work and painted it with a matched color of automotive paint and wet 

sanded and polished the juction and it is holding up great and you can't see 

any difference from the original paint.



JOhn G. 409

[quote]From: linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Filler wars -  Part I

Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 10:05:50 -0400






Most likely the canopy is acrylic.

Linn



RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:



>

><rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>

>

>Epoxy also has a tendency to let go of polyester parts after a while and

>I believe the canopy is made from polyester resin.  But I could be wrong

>as I haven't seen my canopy in over a month.  I need to get my new

>workshop done!

>

>Michael

>Do not archive

>

>--

jhstarn(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:53 am Post subject: Filler wars - Part I

It's my understanding that epoxy resin will stick/bond to polyester but not 

the other way around.

Do Not Archive   KABONG



  "As we all know, epoxy filler doesn't stick too well to polyester parts, 

but

 	  Quote: 	
		   polyester fillers do stick to epoxy parts."


	


---

Vern(at)teclabsinc.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:00 am Post subject: Filler wars - Part I

For what it is worth, I called Van's and was told the cabin roof is an

epoxy lay-up.



Vern Smith(40324)



--

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:01 am Post subject: Filler wars - Part I

John,



My understanding is that polyester resins form a wax coating during cure.  

Polyester resin will bond to polyester after a cure has taken place without 

need for mechanical roughening of the surface or chemical cleaning, a 

chemical bond occurs and the cured polyester resin gets infiltrated by the 

fresh polyester resin.



Epoxy on the other hand, will not stick to epoxy unless it is either still 

in the tack phase or has completely cured, but then been mechanically 

roughened my sanding.



Epoxy will stick to polyester resin provided it has been thoughly cleaned 

with solvents and sanded or other form of mechanical retension made. But the 

cleaning issue leaves a question of just how clean and how strong the bond 

is.



Please let me know if I have this backward because this has been my belief 

for some time from the text which I used in developing my understanding of 

composites.



Please no more wars, I'm broke and I have more more aggression left.



John G. 409

[quote]From: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn(at)verizon.net>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Filler wars - Part I

Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 08:52:19 -0700






It's my understanding that epoxy resin will stick/bond to polyester but not 

the other way around.

Do Not Archive   KABONG



  "As we all know, epoxy filler doesn't stick too well to polyester parts, 

but

>polyester fillers do stick to epoxy parts."



---

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:30 am Post subject: Filler wars - Part I

Canopy's are generally something that goes over something, normally your

head.  Like Big Top canopy or tree canopy.  Really, did anyone actually

not know what we were talking about?    I know the tips and other

fairings are epoxy.  Probably need to check with Van's crappy fiberglass

guy to find out for sure.



I wish I could recall if it's made out of polyester or not but I could

swear that it is.  Also, James products like the cowl and plenum are

polyester.



Michael

Do not archive

--

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:41 am Post subject: Filler wars - Part I

I thought the windows get fit from the outside, so technically that are not 

in the RV10 either.

[quote]From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Filler wars -  Part I

Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 13:15:01 -0500




<rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>



Actually the canopy/cabin lid/top/fiberglass looking thingy isn't in an

RV-10 but the windscreen and windows are.  



Do not archive.



--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:20 pm Post subject: Filler wars - Part I

Andy Marshall's book is now in its Seventh Printing "Composite Basics"

ISBN 0-9664540-4-9 unfortunately it has gone to Aircraft Technical Books

or maybe it's www.buildersbooks.com and is available in either hard copy

or PDF.



Clearly some out there have no idea which bonds to which and the

difference in long-term shrink of polyester vs. epoxy fillers for E

glass, S Glass, Graphite, Aramid or other advanced materials.  Usually

when it comes to composite materials I would conclude the Dentist has

the most training at mixing the stuff.



For the rest of you read the book, don't guess or jump to conclusions.

Or maybe some day Dan Checkoway may become the Composite Guru too.

Plastic planes have beaten this subject blue and Van is light years

behind the curve.



John 40600

Do not Archive



--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:40 pm Post subject: Filler wars - Part I

Everyone knows the value of personal opinion.  Read Andy's book.  I will

forward to you my 10MB PDF file which I archived for posterity.  The

rest of you need to get up to speed and read.  Deem's, I will bring your

copy on the 26th.



Your post below seems accurate, IMHO.  However, Polyester is at the

lowest end of the molecular chain.  Epoxy is more complex, more

reliable, more expensive and therefore the only thing our airline will

allow used. Our airline and A&P school brought out silver bullets and

crosses if anyone tried to save effort and money by using the less

acceptable polyester fillers. Proper preparation is dependent on knowing

the substrate, knowing about cohesion, adhesion and the difference of

glue, adhesive and the like.  Andy's book is enjoyable reading.  I

forwarded to Deem's the actual pictures of three Lancairs who chose

unwisely.  Ground yours if you chose less wisely.



Now here is a reasonable question?  If you ever try to repair a VANS

canopy how will you know if it's E glass, S glass, epoxy, how many BID

and which adhesive to use. What is the Warp clock layout per BID? Which

method is recommended for proper wetting? Riveting is so much more Black

& White.



Focus your aggression back on whipping those building tasks ahead.  I

hear everyone loves to fly the finished item regardless of this banter.



John C. 600 ($00.02)

Do not Archive



--

bob.kaufmann(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:57 pm Post subject: Filler wars - Part I

ROFLMAO



Bob K



--

james.k.hovis(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:39 am Post subject: Filler wars - Part I

West System epoxy is pretty similar to Hysol's EA960 and EA956. One alternative I've used in other applications (modeling battleships) is to use glass micro-balloons mixed with epoxy. I get the micro-balloons from a hobby shop in quart bottles and the product looks similar to the West System's product. The only drawback is mixing the micro-balloons into straight epoxy, it's difficult to get a good mix. Solution is to thin the epoxy somewhat with acetone to make it flow a little better. For good bonding on the outer moldline of the cockpit cover, I wouldn't thin epoxy no more than 10 - 15% with acetone by volume.  

  

 For a useful hint, a repair process used for fiberglass delams open to an edge or around a fastener hole is to use EA956 and heat the fiberglass to 150 deg. Apply with a brush and watch the epoxy wick into the delam. Keep heat on the part for an hour for rapid cure. Hypodermics and witness holes can be used for more internal, not open to edge delams. 

  

 James Hovis.    



 

 On 10/5/06, Rob Kermanj <flysrv10(at)gmail.com (flysrv10(at)gmail.com)> wrote: [quote] You can use the West System epoxy (products 105 and 205) mixed with West System product 410.  410 is a very light weight filler that sands well.  Mix the product dry for deep holes and a little wet for final filling to minimize pin holes. for the final coat, use all three products as a liquid slurry to fill the pin holes.  

 

 do not archive

  Rob Kermanj

 

 



  On Oct 3, 2006, at 3:53 PM, Deems Davis wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		   --> RV10-List message posted by: Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net (deemsdavis(at)cox.net)>

 

 

 I've got the cabin cover off prior to match drilling it to the Fuse and figured this would be a good time to smooth out the "varicous veins" left from the vacum bagging and to otherwise sand and fill the depressions/hills and valleys to make for a more ascethetic interior appearance. I merrily began this process using Bondo for the deeper 'valleys' and a product called 'Icing' for the more shallow. John 'The Turbinator" Cox who monitors this grasshoppers progress to keep me from wandering too far afield from 'acceptable' practices. Noted what I was doing and in an offline e-mail diplomatically informed me that both of the 2 products I was using have histories of shrinking after 18-24 months of use, and particularly when exposed to high (120F) temps. >   ! He sent me some pictures from some Lancair projects to dramatically demonstrate the results.

 

 

 So my question is: What 'aircraft grade' filler are people using? And where did you obtain it from? I'd appreciate hearing experience particularly from anybody that's already solved this problem. The application I'm using it for, is definitely Non Structural, and cosmetic only, so I   don't need/want to use flox, epoxy and micro takes too long to set up to be able to sand. as I'm finding that it takes many many coats/layers of filler to get a smooth surface.

 

 

 Let the games begin

 

 

 Deems Davis # 406

 Panel/Finishing

 http://deemsrv10.com/

 

 

 

 

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