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Facet Pump Failure
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pete.howell(at)gecko-grou
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:20 am Post subject: Facet Pump Failure

I had my pump fail after 45 seconds of fuel flow test (just

installed) - does anyone have an address or phone # for the mfg.  I'd

like to call to see if they have seen this before or want to analyze

the unit.



Pete

finn.lassen(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:02 am Post subject: Facet Pump Failure

First I'd recommend you inspect it for foreign object stuck in it 

preventing the piston from moving.



Finn



Pete Howell wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

I had my pump fail after 45 seconds of fuel flow test (just

installed) - does anyone have an address or phone # for the mfg.  I'd

like to call to see if they have seen this before or want to analyze

the unit.



Pete

  




	


--

FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:52 pm Post subject: Facet Pump Failure

In a message dated 10/2/2006 9:22:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, pete.howell(at)gecko-group.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I had my pump fail after 45 seconds of fuel flow test (just

installed) - does anyone have an address or phone # for the mfg.  I'd

like to call to see if they have seen this before or want to analyze

the unit.



Pete 	


 ============================

 Pete:

  

 I have repaired about 3 pumps that have failed.  In all three cases it was debris that jammed the piston.

  

 One side of the pump unscrews and the unit comes apart.  DON'T LOOSE THE PIECES when taking it apart.

  

  

 Barry

"Chop'd Liver"

  [quote][b]

inverteddecathlon(at)hotm
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:27 pm Post subject: Facet Pump Failure

The Facet pump is very sensitive to dirt and requires a fuel filter between 

the tank and the pump.

Also, they are made to push the fuel, not pull it. They will burn up from 

running dry.

Craig

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com

Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Facet Pump Failure

Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 19:51:45 EDT



In a message dated 10/2/2006 9:22:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,

pete.howell(at)gecko-group.com writes:

I had my pump fail after 45 seconds of fuel flow test (just

installed) - does anyone have an address or phone # for the mfg.  I'd

like to call to see if they have seen this before or want to analyze

the unit.



Pete

============================

Pete:



I have repaired about 3 pumps that have failed.  In all three cases it was

debris that jammed the piston.



One side of the pump unscrews and the unit comes apart.  DON'T LOOSE THE

PIECES when taking it apart.

Barry

"Chop'd Liver"

jmsears(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:19 am Post subject: Facet Pump Failure

I guess this thread concerns the little square Facet pump that Van pushes. 

I sounds like it's a touchy little critter that I'd not want in my airplane. 

I have one of the cylindrical Facets, like those found in the ACS catalog. 

It's worked quite well in about 400 hours of flying.  The one I had in my 

Grumman-American Cheetah had never been replaced.  The Cheetah had about 

fifteen hundred hours on it, when I sold it.  This unit has a screen inside 

to catch dirt, a magnet on the bottom to catch metal, and a removable bottom 

that allows one to inspect it.  It may be a good alternative for the ones 

who are having problems with the little square pump.   You'd have to do some 

plumbing work to install it, though.  Those not at the point of installing 

the pump may look at these as an alternative.  Get the anti-syphon version. 

There is one that fits well with our lines; but, I don't think ACS has it. 

One of the contributors told us about it, a long time ago.  It's in the 

archives.  With the ACS version, one has to downsize to a smaller nipple 

size at the pump.  No big deal; but, the other pump would be better.



Oh, yeah.  I have my fuel pump mounted on the engine side of the firewall. 

I didn't like the idea of having one in the cockpit with me.  At annual 

time, it's easier to get to for inspection while I'm looking at the engine 

and lines.



Jim Sears in KY

RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)

RV-7A #70317  (Very slowly working on the fuse)

EAA Tech Counselor

ebundy(at)speedyquick.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:25 am Post subject: Facet Pump Failure

I really don't think I'd label the Facet pump as touchy.  That thing is in

thousands of airplanes and the only time anyone is likely to post is when

they have a problem with it.  I would guess that most everyone else that

hasn't posted is probably doing fine.  I have 750+ hours on mine with no

trouble whatsoever.  FWIW, it's cheap, simple, and it works.



Ed Bundy



I guess this thread concerns the little square Facet pump that Van pushes.

I sounds like it's a touchy little critter that I'd not want in my airplane.

I have one of the cylindrical Facets, like those found in the ACS catalog.



--

Gary.A.Sobek

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 217
Location: SoCAL USA

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:46 am Post subject: Facet Pump Failure

My little square Facet Pump is the one recommended by Van and is mounted in 

the cockpit where Van recommends it.  It has worked PERFECT since day one 9 

years ago and 1,953 flying hours.  Paul Rosales has almost 2,500 hours on 

his and he has worked perfect also.



Gary A. Sobek

"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,

1,953 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA



----Original Message Follows----

From: "Jim Sears" <jmsears(at)adelphia.net>

Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Facet Pump Failure

Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 07:15:51 -0400






I guess this thread concerns the little square Facet pump that Van pushes. I 

sounds like it's a touchy little critter that I'd not want in my airplane. I 

have one of the cylindrical Facets, like those found in the ACS catalog. 

It's worked quite well in about 400 hours of flying.  The one I had in my 

Grumman-American Cheetah had never been replaced.  The Cheetah had about 

fifteen hundred hours on it, when I sold it.  This unit has a screen inside 

to catch dirt, a magnet on the bottom to catch metal, and a removable bottom 

that allows one to inspect it.  It may be a good alternative for the ones 

who are having problems with the little square pump.   You'd have to do some 

plumbing work to install it, though.  Those not at the point of installing 

the pump may look at these as an alternative.  Get the anti-syphon version. 

There is one that fits well with our lines; but, I don't think ACS has it. 

One of the contributors told us about it, a long time ago.  It's in the 

archives.  With the ACS version, one has to downsize to a smaller nipple 

size at the pump.  No big deal; but, the other pump would be better.



Oh, yeah.  I have my fuel pump mounted on the engine side of the firewall. I 

didn't like the idea of having one in the cockpit with me.  At annual time, 

it's easier to get to for inspection while I'm looking at the engine and 

lines.



Jim Sears in KY

RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)

RV-7A #70317  (Very slowly working on the fuse)

EAA Tech Counselor

sbuc(at)hiwaay.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:05 am Post subject: Facet Pump Failure

Ed Bundy wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I really don't think I'd label the Facet pump as touchy.  That thing is in

 thousands of airplanes and the only time anyone is likely to post is when

 they have a problem with it.  I would guess that most everyone else that

 hasn't posted is probably doing fine.  I have 750+ hours on mine with no

 trouble whatsoever.  FWIW, it's cheap, simple, and it works.


	




And....the Facet pump is a backup pump. What are the odds of the 

engine-driven fuel pump and the Facet failing at the same time?



Sam Buchanan (RV-6 Classic with 780 hrs on the original Facet pump)

joelhaynes

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 19
Location: Bozeman, MT

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:48 am Post subject: Facet Pump Failure

Regarding the comment that Facet pumps require a filter between the fuel tanks and the pump to prevent debris from jamming the pump, I have Van's standard carbureted fuel system setup in which the only "filter" I have between the pump and the tanks is Van's fuel pickups with screens on the ends.  Are some people using an additional filter in the fuel system?  My pump has performed well for 50+ hours (not continuous operation) even though I occasionally see a small amount of fine debris in my tanks when I test for water.

    

   Joel Haynes

   RV-7A

   N557XW 

   51 hours

   Bozeman

    Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. 

    [quote][b]

Bill Schlatterer

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:27 pm Post subject: Facet Pump Failure

So not having looked  inside one, if the piston jams on junk, will it still flow fuel if the  mechanical pump is working ?  In other words, does it fail in a safe mode  ?

  

 Thanks Bill  S



   From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com

Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 6:52  PM

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Facet  Pump Failure

 

  In a message dated 10/2/2006 9:22:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,  pete.howell(at)gecko-group.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I had my pump fail after 45 seconds of fuel flow test    (just

installed) - does anyone have an address or phone # for the    mfg.  I'd

like to call to see if they have seen this before or want to    analyze

the unit.



Pete 	


 ============================

 Pete:

  

 I have repaired about 3 pumps that have failed.  In all three cases it  was debris that jammed the piston.

  

 One side of the pump unscrews and the unit comes apart.  DON'T LOOSE  THE PIECES when taking it apart.

  

  

 Barry

"Chop'd  Liver"

[quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://wiki.matronics.com">http://wiki.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

Vanremog(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:42 pm Post subject: Facet Pump Failure

In a message dated 10/3/2006 6:49:24 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  rv6_flyer(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  My    little square Facet Pump is the one recommended by Van and is mounted in    

the cockpit where Van recommends it.  It has worked PERFECT since day    one 9 

years ago and 1,953 flying hours.  Paul Rosales has almost    2,500 hours on 

his and he has worked perfect  also.

	


 

 ==================================

  

 811 hrs same pump (carbureted in my case) mounted all standard per Van's  instructions yadda yadda also perfectamundo.  Let's not re-engineer this  area, folks.

  

  

  

 GV (RV-6A  N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 811hrs, Silicon Valley, CA)  

  [quote][b]

richard.b.zeidman(at)boei
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:20 am Post subject: Facet pump failure

I don't want to cause a fuel pump panic, but I, unfortunately, was one

who had a facet pump failure at about 800 hours. It hadn't been sounding

normal for a few hours and should have been replaced. During it's last

flight, I toggled the pump switch and the engine shut off. I tested it

in a lab later and found it to be intermitant below 13.5 volts and would

start dithering instead of pumping. Why it didn't allow fuel throuh it,

I canot explain.

PS My new RV has a cylindrical pump installed.

Rich

N42RZ RV6A

N42PZ RV7

jjessen

Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR

Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:02 am Post subject: Facet pump failure

Who makes the cylindrical pump?  Are you flying with it, yet?  



John Jessen

  #40328 



--

Vanremog(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:04 am Post subject: Facet pump failure

In a message dated 10/4/2006 4:21:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  richard.b.zeidman(at)boeing.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I don't    want to cause a fuel pump panic, but I, unfortunately, was one

who had a    facet pump failure at about 800 hours. It hadn't been sounding

normal for a    few hours and should have been replaced. During it's last

flight, I toggled    the pump switch and the engine shut off. I tested it

in a lab later and    found it to be intermittent below 13.5 volts and would

start dithering    instead of pumping. Why it didn't allow fuel through it,

I cannot    explain.

PS My new RV has a cylindrical pump  installed.

	


 

 ==================================

  

 It would help us all a little to know which pump you had fail (FI high  pressure or Carb low pressure).   

 GV (RV-6A  N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 811hrs, Silicon Valley, CA)  



  [quote][b]

FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:41 pm Post subject: Facet pump failure

In a message dated 10/5/06 12:06:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 

Vanremog(at)aol.com writes:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Why it didn't allow fuel through it,

  I cannot  explain.

  PS My new RV has a cylindrical pump  installed.

=====================================
	


I think you should take it apart.

It comes apart very easy, just one bog nut.  Problems I found were debris 

clogging and jamming the piston.

I sure would like to know what you found.



Barry

"Chop'd Liver"

richard.b.zeidman(at)boei
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:43 am Post subject: Facet pump failure

It was the low pressure Facet pump from Vans catalog. It did give me

some warning that I didn't heed. Along with not sounding quite right,

the day prior to the in flight failure, after flying around for awhile,

I stopped for fuel and could not get any fuel pressure on restart.

Thinking I had a vapor lock in my engine pump, I let the engine cool for

20 minutes and then flew home without any problems. The next day,

(5/11/05) I added a blast tube to the engine pump and flew around to

warm up the engine to see if I could get it to repeat the prior day's

event. During that flight is when I toggled the electric pump, shutting

off the engine.

Pump failure may be rare, but it does happen.

Rich

RV6A N42RZ

RV7 N42PZ



time: 09:04:04 AM PST US

From: Vanremog(at)aol.com

Subject: Re: Facet pump failure

In a message dated 10/4/2006 4:21:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  

richard.b.zeidman(at)boeing.com writes:



I don't  want to cause a fuel pump panic, but I, unfortunately, was one

who had a  facet pump failure at about 800 hours. It hadn't been

sounding

normal for a  few hours and should have been replaced. During it's last

flight, I toggled  the pump switch and the engine shut off. I tested it

in a lab later and  found it to be intermittent below 13.5 volts and

would

start dithering  instead of pumping. Why it didn't allow fuel through

it,

I cannot  explain.

PS My new RV has a cylindrical pump  installed.

=================================



It would help us all a little to know which pump you had fail (FI high  

pressure or Carb low pressure).  



GV (RV-6A  N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 811hrs, Silicon Valley, CA)

FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:49 pm Post subject: Facet Pump Failure

In a message dated 10/4/2006 2:44:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, Vanremog(at)aol.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		   811 hrs same pump (carbureted in my case) mounted all standard per Van's instructions yadda yadda also perfectamundo.  Let's not re-engineer this area, folks.

  

  

  

 GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 811hrs, Silicon Valley, CA) 

	


 ==============================

 ONLY that the little square thing should have a filter on the intake side.  As I said before, I repaired three pumps due to debris jamming the piston.  Other than that they work fine.

  

  

 Barry

"Chop'd Liver"

  [quote][b]

FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:57 pm Post subject: Facet Pump Failure

In a message dated 10/3/2006 11:29:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, billschlatterer(at)sbcglobal.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		   So not having looked inside one, if the piston jams on junk, will it still flow fuel if the mechanical pump is working ?  In other words, does it fail in a safe mode ?

  

 Thanks Bill S

	


 ==================================

 Bill:

  

 It all depends on what you consider the safe?  Yes, it will pass fuel.  Will it pass fuel in a high enough quantity for a take off, or when switching from a dry tank, or when the throttle is fire-walled?  I don't think so! And I don't want to take the chance.

 I know it will NOT pass fuel from a DRY PRIME START.  

 The cure is simply install a filter on BOTH feeds from the wing before it hits the pump.  The round Facet Pumps have a filter built into the bottom.

 Van's did a great job designing our planes, GREAT, not PERFECT!  And we are here to help.  I point out the use of a pop-rivet for the static port.  Now how many have used that method?

  

  

 Barry

"Chop'd Liver"

  [quote][b]

sbuc(at)hiwaay.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:46 am Post subject: Facet Pump Failure

FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   It all depends on what you consider the safe?  Yes, it will pass fuel.  Will 

 it pass fuel in a high enough quantity for a take off, or when switching from 

 a dry tank, or when the throttle is fire-walled?  I don't think so! And I 

 don't want to take the chance.

 I know it will NOT pass fuel from a DRY PRIME START.  

 The cure is simply install a filter on BOTH feeds from the wing before it 

 hits the pump.  The round Facet Pumps have a filter built into the bottom.

 Van's did a great job designing our planes, GREAT, not PERFECT!  And we are 

 here to help.  I point out the use of a pop-rivet for the static port.  Now how 

 many have used that method?


	




How many have used pop rivets for the static ports? I suspect it would 

be close to 90% of all flying RV's. And the pop rivet port is more 

accurate than the alternate, "properly engineered" ports.  



The little square Facet pump does indeed appear to be sorta rinky-dink 

for our highly engineered, garage-built airplanes, and it sounds awful. 

But the thing has a great field history in hundreds and hundreds of 

aircraft. There have obviously been isolated failures, but that is the 

case with nearly every component on our planes. If a builder decides to 

replace the pump with something more "appropriate", so be it, just be 

sure safety issues aren't being introduced by tampering with a proven 

design. By the way, the Facet pump on my plane was able to produce fuel 

flow from a "dry prime". The same was true of the two Facet pumps I have 

in automotive applications. The pump certainly has a limit as to how 

high a column of fuel it can pull, but it seems in our RV application 

there is sufficient head pressure, at least with ample fuel in the tank, 

for the pump to self-prime.



If debris large enough to repeatedly clog the Facet was in my fuel 

system, I would open up the tanks and find out where it was coming from! 

I have the optional Vans fuel pickups with the screens, and that is as 

fine a filter as I want near the fuel tank. Usually, filters are very 

coarse near the fuel pickup, then get finer the closer you get to the 

carb. The gascolator is fine enough to pick up any particles large 

enough to clog carb jets, and the only stuff I have found in the 

gascolator screen in nearly 800 hrs was a few tiny black specks when the 

plane was new.



A couple of years ago I purchased two glass automotive filters that I 

intended to put in the wing roots and then remove the gascolator. 

But....I chickened out after reconsidering why I would mess with a fuel 

system that had been flawless for hundreds of hours on my RV, and 

countless thousands of hours on other planes.



I certainly don't want to discourage anyone from exploring ways to 

improve the RV breed, but it is probably good for new builders to be 

very wary of changing critical flight systems without considering the 

proven track record of planes that have been in service for a long time.



Sam Buchanan  (1999 RV-6 Classic, 784 hrs)

EAA Tech Counselor

http://thervjournal.com

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:23 am Post subject: Facet Pump Failure

I'm coming to this thread late so forgive me. I also don't really know

diddly, yet, about engines as I don't have one. I installed an Airflow HP

fuel pump because a lot of builders who I've been getting advice from did

(same rason I bought a TATCO hand squeezer so you'd think I'd learn, eh?)  



When you talk about filtering both wings....do you mean separately? As

in,...two filters? As you may know the AF doesn't do that either.



I'm also still kickng around whether I should put a Gasoclator on my RV.

Some people say you don't need one with an AF pump, others say "why not?" 



And for those with the AF pump, how do you service that filter without

having fuel spilling all over the the floor and carpet.



Apologies in advance if these sound stupid. I blame my parents for that. (g)



Do not archive.



Bob



[quote] --

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

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