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wheel landings and the compleat td pilot

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jose_m_toro(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:58 am Post subject: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot

Dave:

  

 If you do a three pointer on strong cross wind, the airplane will not immediate transition into a car.  The wings will still be flying and the nose will point in direction to the wind because you don't have enough rudder authority.  This could be done ONLY if you have enough runway to SAFELY align the plane with the wind.  This may imply a diagonal or perpendicular landing which, in most cases could not be safely or legally performed.

  

 As a pilot you need to recognize your limitations.  I'm not instrument rated, and my plane's equipment is limited to day VFR.  This implies that, by ALL means, I need to avoid weather and low visibility.  Both my plane and myself have a limitation.  The same applies to tail dragger pilots and wheel landings.  If you are a taildragger pilot, and you can't perform wheel landings, there are certain wind conditions that you need to avoid to insure you can perform a safe landing, that you would not need to avoid if you can perform a wheel landing.  If a pilot cannot perfom a wheel landing in a Kitfox, it is a pilot limitation but not a plane limitation.  Kitfox are very capable of handling cross wind, and that includes Model II which I used to own.  Refering to the title of an excellent book I read 13 years ago, "The Compleat  Taildragger Pilot", by Harvey S. Plourde, IMHO a tail dragger pilot that can't perform a wheel landing is not a "compleat" (complete) taidragger pilot.  I may be wrong but this has been my experience.

  

 Jose

  

 



 

 ---

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:57 am Post subject: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot

Well said Jose.  My sentiments  exactly.

 Deke

 do not archive

 [quote]    

      Dave:

    

   If    you do a three pointer on strong cross wind, the airplane will not    immediate transition into a car.  The wings will still be flying and the    nose will point in direction to the wind because you don't have enough rudder    authority.  This could be done ONLY if you have enough runway    to SAFELY align the plane with the wind.  This may imply a diagonal    or perpendicular landing which, in most cases could not be safely or legally    performed.

    

   As    a pilot you need to recognize your limitations.  I'm not instrument    rated, and my plane's equipment is limited to day VFR.  This implies    that, by ALL means, I need to avoid weather and low visibility.  Both my    plane and myself have a limitation.  The same applies to tail    dragger pilots and wheel landings.  If you are a taildragger pilot, and    you can't perform wheel landings, there are certain wind    conditions that you need to avoid to insure you can perform a safe    landing, that you would not need to avoid if you can perform a wheel    landing.  If a pilot cannot perfom a wheel landing in a Kitfox, it is a    pilot limitation but not a plane limitation.  Kitfox are very capable of    handling cross wind, and that includes Model II which I used to own.     Refering to the title of an excellent book I read 13 years ago, "The    Compleat Taildragger Pilot", by Harvey S. Plourde, IMHO a tail dragger pilot    that can't perform a wheel landing is not a "compleat" (complete) taidragger    pilot.  I may be wrong but this has been my experience.

    

   Jose

    

   



 

   -----    Original Message ----

From: "Aerobatics(at)aol.com"    <Aerobatics(at)aol.com>

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Sent:    Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:45:06 AM

Subject: Re: wheel    landings



       On a 3 pointer, you go from a plane to a car instantly with all 3    wheels contacting.



    

   So on certain conditions and if you dont mind using more runway, try a    wheeler.  But not me.

    

   Just another opinion....!

    

   Dave

[b]

Aerobatics(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:00 am Post subject: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot

In a message dated 10/11/2006 10:59:52 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  jose_m_toro(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Dave:

    

   If    you do a three pointer on strong cross wind, the airplane will not    immediate transition into a car.  The wings will still be flying and the    nose will point in direction to the wind because you don't have enough rudder    authority.  This could be done ONLY if you have enough runway    to SAFELY align the plane with the wind.  This may imply a diagonal    or perpendicular landing which, in most cases could not be safely or legally    performed.

    

   As    a pilot you need to recognize your limitations.  I'm not instrument    rated, and my plane's equipment is limited to day VFR.  This implies    that, by ALL means, I need to avoid weather and low visibility.  Both my    plane and myself have a limitation.  The same applies to tail    dragger pilots and wheel landings.  If you are a taildragger pilot, and    you can't perform wheel landings, there are certain wind    conditions that you need to avoid to insure you can perform a safe    landing, that you would not need to avoid if you can perform a wheel    landing.  If a pilot cannot perfom a wheel landing in a Kitfox, it is a    pilot limitation but not a plane limitation.  Kitfox are very capable of    handling cross wind, and that includes Model II which I used to own.     Refering to the title of an excellent book I read 13 years ago, "The    Compleat Taildragger Pilot", by Harvey S. Plourde, IMHO a tail dragger pilot    that can't perform a wheel landing is not a "compleat" (complete) taidragger    pilot.  I may be wrong but this has been my experience.

    

   Jose

	


 

 Lets just say we disagree. I happen to respectfully disagree  strongly. 

  

 Yes, I can do a wheel landing.  one wheel touch and goes and so  on.... fun stuff...  And do so, but I feel that a full stall 3  point is a much better choice on a KF2.  A much better choice. It is not  for all planes of course, Like a DC3, P51.... 

  

 The comment "car" was meant to say the plane goes from a flying machine ,  totally dependent on air for control to 3 wheel car with a steerable tail  wheel for directional control. At slow speeds, the rudder is almost useless and  in a crosswind the plane naturally wants to weather vane. Its that rubber tail  wheel contact that prevents it. It the tail is up, and speed is slow....   you simply have a loss of control during the transition.  Been there.   

  

 You suggest that you cant 3 point in a crosswind?  Again I disagree,  have a very short runway and do it all the time, under control cross wind et  all.   Like I said before, hundreds of times.

  

 Lastly, you use more runway.  

  

 I dont have your book, I have, "Conventional Gear"flying a tail  dragger by David Robinson sold through ASA.    I have not read it  in a while.  It generally agrees with what I have just said.... it also  says occasionally in "gusty conditions" one might chose a wheeler, BUT  ...   

  

 Anyways, it works for you......  safely you must be doing it right,  for you...   but for me, I probably have close to 1,000 taildragger  landings and the above has worked for me, except once.....   I did a  wheeler, in a cross wind on pavement.... giving a very high time pilot a ride in  my KF .....   he flew them all from B17   etc and to this  day flies a Vagabond, and I got a lesson on why I should use the 3  point...  and have since  To this day I dont know how I missed that  runway light!

  

 This site is to share ideas and help our flying brothers and sisters.   I would suggest to anyone that is looking to fly a TG is to speak to an  instructor and get training...

  

 Best,

  

 Dave

  

  

  

  

  

  

  [quote][b]

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:00 pm Post subject: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot

Got my vote........  on your quote    "IMHO a tail dragger pilot that can't  perform a wheel landing is not a "compleat" (complete) taidragger pilot.  I  may be wrong but this has been my experience.  

 Jose"

  

 That being said, if your only destination becomes beyond your  personal limitation due to never being trained for example a wheel landing then  what do you do ?

  

  

 Dave 



 [quote]   ---

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jose_m_toro(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:01 pm Post subject: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot

 	  Quote: 	
		   Dave:

  

 I agree on that fact fact, that we disagree.  I also respect your opinion.  You have done plenty of safe three pointers.

  

 Do you agree that there is absolutely nothing wrong or unsafe about doing wheel landings in a Kitfox II? 

  

 I want to share a story.  I once landed a single seater, 350 pounds Rans S4 TD in a quartering, 25 knots wind from the right.  That happened in a very long and wide pavement runway.  I did  a full stop in the runway.  As soon as the airplane stopped, the wind raised the right wing and started blowing the airplane backwards.  In order to be able to taxi the airplane to the terminal, I had to apply power and taxi it rolling on the right main wheel.  To be able to stop, two person had to run and hold the wings.    For the take off, two persons hold the wing until I was able to start the take off roll. I did it diagonally, aligned with the wind.  This was safe only because it happenned on a long and wide runway.  In a small runway, results most likely would have been different...  However, it is a  fact that a person that is not able to do a wheel landing would not be able to taxi the airplane in one wheel.  On that occurrence, it was the only possible way to taxi that airplane to the terminal, and I had to go there for fuel.  

  

 With good brakes, and low wind, you can also taxi the airplane with the tail wheel raised, including making 90 degree turns.  You can also do a full stop with the wheel still raised.  Beside the fact that this is to show off, and could be dangerous if done near obstacles, it also shows that you can control the plane.  By no means, I would attempt to do this in an airplane I'm not very familiar with.

  

 Jose

	


 

 Lets just say we disagree. I happen to respectfully disagree strongly. 

  

 Yes, I can do a wheel landing.  one wheel touch and goes and so on.... fun stuff...  And do so, but I feel that a full stall 3 point is a much better choice on a KF2.  A much better choice. It is not for all planes of course, Like a DC3, P51... 

  

 The comment "car" was meant to say the plane goes from a flying machine , totally dependent on air for control to 3 wheel car with a steerable tail wheel for directional control. At slow speeds, the rudder is almost useless and in a crosswind the plane naturally wants to weather vane. Its that rubber tail wheel contact that prevents it. It the tail is up, and speed is slow....  you simply have a loss of control during the transition.  Been there.  

  

 You suggest that you cant 3 point in a crosswind?  Again I disagree, have a very short runway and do it all the time, under control cross wind et all.   Like I said before, hundreds of times.

  

 Lastly, you use more runway.  

  

 I dont have your book, I have, "Conventional Gear"flying a tail dragger by David Robinson sold through ASA.    I have not read it in a while.  It generally agrees with what I have just said.... it also says occasionally in "gusty conditions" one might chose a wheeler, BUT ....   

  

 Anyways, it works for you......  safely you must be doing it right, for you...   but for me, I probably have close to 1,000 taildragger landings and the above has worked for me, except once.....   I did a wheeler, in a cross wind on pavement.... giving a very high time pilot a ride in my KF .....   he flew them all from B17   etc and to this day flies a Vagabond, and I got a lesson on why I should use the 3 point...  and have since  To this day I dont know how I missed that runway light!

  

 This site is to share ideas and help our flying brothers and sisters.  I would suggest to anyone that is looking to fly a TG is to speak to an instructor and get training...

  

 Best,

  

 Dave

  

  

  

  

  

  

[quote][b]igator?Kitfox-List" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.comronics.com/" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com  --> [b]

shilocom(at)mcmsys.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:55 pm Post subject: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot

This thread can go on for ever.  I personally like the  wheel landing on most airplanes, especially on grass with a springy landing  gear.   BUT one thing I can gaurantee you that is true and NOT  debatable.  When going from cruise to parked in the hanger, every tailwheel  airplane must transition to the 3 point attitude and be below stall speed when  doing it.  So pick your time for this transition.   During touch  down or after touchdown.  Crosswind techniques are doable for both systems  equally.   You have to fly them all the way to the hanger, don't  forget that. One old Ag pilot who taught me to fly said you  better know how to wheel land these Ag planes, because sooner or later your  going to have to land with the tanks FULL and the gear on these things  won't take a full stall landing at full gross, and that's the case with  other heavy tailwheel airplanes, but not the Kitfox.   Bob U.  

 [quote]   ---

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:33 pm Post subject: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot

I have to chime in on Dave's side on this one.  I don't do Wheel landings 

unless a BFR instructor wants to see one.



My only experience with major cross wind was at Jackpot, NV where six of 

us - five Kitfox IVs and a Rans S6 Coyote all landed three point in what was 

estimated at over 25 mph at 90 degrees.  The Rans Pilot signs my BFR -  I 

trust his estimate.  The six of us have over 200 hours flying together with 

probably a  hundred fifty landings X 6 on everything and up to 7100 ft. 

elev.    I have never seen a wheel landing in the group nor a ground loop.



Even though I have some issues with Ed Downs, I think he is right on with 

the three point issue - in a "Kitfox", other airplanes may vary.  With gusty 

conditions fine, but gusty doesn't always mean cross winds or vise versa.



I appreciate the opinions on the list...., but then, I guess I can live with 

not being a complete taildragger pilot.

Lowell      825 hours  Model IV-1200



---

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:22 pm Post subject: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot

HERE HERE!

From: "Dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot

Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 17:58:49 -0400

Got my vote........  on your quote   "IMHO a tail dragger pilot that can't 

perform a wheel landing is not a "compleat" (complete) taidragger pilot.  I 

may be wrong but this has been my experience.

Jose"

That being said, if your only destination becomes beyond your personal 

limitation due to never being trained for example a wheel landing then what 

do you do ?

Dave

   ---

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:42 pm Post subject: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot

Begin the flare as normal, then when the tail just begins to drop a wee 

check forward on the stick to touch mains and hold it there. Slight tail low 

wheelers good in that the sting has gone out of the speed and stick 

pressures not no critical



From: "Dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot

Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 17:58:49 -0400



Got my vote........  on your quote   "IMHO a tail dragger pilot that can't 

perform a wheel landing is not a "compleat" (complete) taidragger pilot.  I 

may be wrong but this has been my experience.



Jose"



That being said, if your only destination becomes beyond your personal 

limitation due to never being trained for example a wheel landing then what 

do you do ?

Dave

   ---

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:14 am Post subject: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Bob Unternaehrer [shilocom(at)mcmsys.com]

 because sooner or later your going to have to land with the tanks FULL and the gear

 on these things won't take a full stall landing at full gross, and that's the case with 

 other heavy tailwheel airplanes, but not the Kitfox.


	


Indeed, Bob. That's a fact I remember my father, who flew the DC-3 in the 50s, was telling us. Unfortunately he passed away in 1986 and I never got a chance to fly with him but his photo, as a pilot student in 1936, is permanently installed in my Kitfox. And when I fly with my son, that's ... 3 generations together.

.. sorry, I am getting sentimental and off-topic.



Cheers,

Michel



do not archive

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

jose_m_toro(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:17 am Post subject: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot

This is a good question.  I can think about two answers.  Get training on wheel landings in order to expand your limits.  Otherwise, be conservative when you plan a flight, specially a long one.  Consider the wind at the destination, consider alternative airports, and the gas reserve required to go to the alternative airport.



 ---

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:33 am Post subject: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot

At 09:32 PM 10/11/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I have to chime in on Dave's side on this one.  I don't do Wheel landings

unless a BFR instructor wants to see one.


	


I found a possible use for one yesterday. I did my first off-field landing, 

on a dry lake bed in the desert east of San Diego. I wasn't sure of the 

surface and didn't want to put the tail wheel down until I checked it out 

with the mains. (I could always go around if I thought it too rough.) I've 

got a Matco 6" tailwheel that's solid with the solid aluminum spring; not a 

lot of give at the back end. Someday I'll fab a fiberglass spring that's 

longer and much more forgiving, and replace the tire with a pneumatic.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

jose_m_toro(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:37 am Post subject: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot

Michel:



I perfectly know that feeling.  My father did flying for living until he retired in 1994.  I have a picture with him and my son when my son flew for the first time, of course, on the Kitfox. He was 3 then.  He is now 12, and I expect to be a Sport Pilot CFI by the time he turns 16.  My father used to be a DPE.



Jose



---

Glenn Horne

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 96

Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:56 pm Post subject: wheel landings and the compleat td pilot

Way to go Michel.

Nothing wrong with that.

Glenn

---

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