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Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again
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Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:55 am Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

Greetings, Kitfoxers,

We have been talking about the danger of ethanol in our fiberglass 

tanks for a long time. I have already mentionned what I read on the 

Jabiru Engine list but ... here it is again:



A gentleman called Bill Evans writes:



"The airlines, military and others use thiokol based rubber sealants to

seal their tanks. Brand names is PRC. You want PRC1422 A2. It's now

manufactured by ProSeal. Normally lasts for generations."



To what I reply, as previously said on this list: "Yes, but it can't be 

sloshed in our existing tanks."



To what Bill answers:



"So the PRC is not thin but is pourable. The solvent is Methyl Ethyl

Ketone. (You can only do this outdoors and with the wind to your back.)

MEK is somewhat soluble in PRC.  You use a paint mixer in an electric

drill, and thin the PRC with MEK until the sealant will flow

sufficiently to get 100% coverage. Slosh would be too optimistic. You

could also spray it in with a new garden sprayer, but that would also

"seal" the future of your garden sprayer. I have done this... Sprayed 

PRC."



Guys, my brain is as empty as a barrel of beer after being raided by a 

bunch of Norwegian soccer hooligans!  Make up your mind on the above 

information and let me know what the jury has decided. Can we do it?



Thanks in advance,



Michel

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:01 am Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

 	  Quote: 	
		  > To what I reply, as previously said on this list: "Yes, but it can't be 

> sloshed in our existing tanks.">>


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  > sufficiently to get 100% coverage. Slosh would be too optimistic.


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  > Can we do it?>>


	


Michel,

    In my opinion, no.  This discussion on sloshing tanks has made a couple 

turns over the years.  One was sloshing to fill pin holes in tanks.  The 

other turn is now talking about sloshing to protect the fiberglass from 

ethanol.  To me, that is two entirely different situations.

    Sloshing to fill pin holes in tanks is possible and has been done by 

several with pretty good results.   If the slosh happens to get into the pin 

hole the leak is fixed.

    Now, here is my opinion on sloshing to "protect" the basic fiberglass 

material.  If you slosh and just happen to miss a spot then the ethanol is 

going to gain access to the fiberglass and all is lost (assuming ethanol 

will eat the fiberglass)  If down the road,  the slosh develops a hairline 

crack then the ethanol will wick into the fiberglass (all is lost again).

    I used an "example" once about having tanks made from Styrofoam and 

relying on a slosh to protect the base material from gasoline.  Someone came 

back and said, "Gasoline will eat Styrofoam".   Well, I knew that and that 

is why I used Styrofoam as an "EXAMPLE".  In my opinion, you can no more 

protect Styrofoam than you can fiberglass with a slosh material.  The tanks 

are just too big,  too flat, too wide and too thin to cover all the 

internals (plus, the baffles).

    Sloshing to fill pinholes is possible but sloshing to protect the basic 

fiberglass material is another question.

    Lets assume (ANOTHER WAY OUT EXAMPLE) that ethanol was proved to eat 

fiberglass tanks up is under 6 months.  Who would trust their lives with a 

slosh or thin coat of paint like material applied to the insides.



IMHO,

Don Smythe

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:34 pm Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

On Oct 13, 2006, at 9:00 PM, Don Smythe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   In my opinion, no.


	


Thank you, Don. Your explanation makes perfect sense to me. I mentioned 

once again PRC because Bill, on the Jabiru list, couldn't understand 

what the problem was with ethanol. My initial posting there was to say, 

in an answer to: is the Jabiru fuel pump and carby gaskets ethanol 

resistant?;

-  "I can always replace hoses and gaskets but what about fiberglass 

tanks?"



Cheers,

Michel

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

torgemor(at)online.no
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:17 pm Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

Hi Michel,



You're pointing to a very important problem -soon to come...



First, the PRC 1422(a..B) Pro-Seal, is a well known fuel sealing compound  

much used for both jet fuel and 100LL.  This compound is mostly used as a  

sealer between joints in wet tanks, but also as a sealer for fasteners  

etc. inside fuel tanks. The PRC 1422 "never" harden, but will keep it's  

good elastomeric qualities for a very long time..  The problem is that  

it's a stuff with "high" viscosity, I.E. cant be sprayed.



Here's a link to the "famous" site    :



http://www.bergdahl.com/Aerocat.htm

Now to the problem, the ethanol fuel E85.



I do not think this kind of fuel can be used for "today’s" aviation.



Firstly, we'll need to find out more accurate information about various  

Resins vs. Ethanol and "fiberglass degrade".



So, what kind of resin is used in YOUR Kitfox???   My Kitfox model II (93  

mod) is made with West System Resin (the fuel tanks).



Well, here's a little info, copied from the "official" guide, issued by:  

The U.S. Department of Energy

----------------------------------------------------------------



Some materials are known to

become degraded by contact with

fuel ethanol blends having high

alcohol concentrations. Zinc, brass,

lead, and aluminum are some of

these sensitive metals. Terne (leadtin-

alloy)-plated steel, which is commonly

used for gasoline fuel tanks,

and lead-based solder are also

incompatible with fuel ethanol.

Avoid using these metals because of

the possibility of vehicle failure or

fuel contamination. Unplated steel,

stainless steel, black iron, and bronze have shown acceptable

resistance to corrosion by ethanol.

Nonmetallic materials that degrade when in contact

with fuel ethanol include natural rubber, polyurethane,

cork gasket material, leather, polyester-bonded fiberglass

laminate, polyvinyl chloride (PVC), polyamides, and

methyl-methacrylate plastics. Nonmetallic materials

that have been successfully used with fuel ethanol

include Buna-N, Neoprene rubber, polyethylene, nylon,

polypropylene, nitrile, Viton, and Teflon.



-----------------------------------------------------------------



You see, aluminum and brass (our carburetor), is among the material that  

won't stand the Ethanol...



Ok., here's the link to the full document about Ethanol fuel (E85):



http://www.agriculture.state.ia.us/pdfs/ethguide.pdf



This is recommended reading for every one of us.

Torgeir.

A happy model II flier, with Avid wing   , sure you too Michel...





On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 19:55:00 +0200, Michel Verheughe <michel(at)online.no>  

wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Greetings, Kitfoxers,

 We have been talking about the danger of ethanol in our fiberglass tanks  

 for a long time. I have already mentionned what I read on the Jabiru  

 Engine list but ... here it is again:



 A gentleman called Bill Evans writes:



 "The airlines, military and others use thiokol based rubber sealants to

 seal their tanks. Brand names is PRC. You want PRC1422 A2. It's now

 manufactured by ProSeal. Normally lasts for generations."



 To what I reply, as previously said on this list: "Yes, but it can't be  

 sloshed in our existing tanks."



 To what Bill answers:



 "So the PRC is not thin but is pourable. The solvent is Methyl Ethyl

 Ketone. (You can only do this outdoors and with the wind to your back.)

 MEK is somewhat soluble in PRC.  You use a paint mixer in an electric

 drill, and thin the PRC with MEK until the sealant will flow

 sufficiently to get 100% coverage. Slosh would be too optimistic. You

 could also spray it in with a new garden sprayer, but that would also

 "seal" the future of your garden sprayer. I have done this... Sprayed  

 PRC."



 Guys, my brain is as empty as a barrel of beer after being raided by a  

 bunch of Norwegian soccer hooligans!  Make up your mind on the above  

 information and let me know what the jury has decided. Can we do it?



 Thanks in advance,



 Michel


	


-- 

Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:46 pm Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

I did a little research on the alcohol issue. The majority of the talk is in 

the boating world where the fiberglass tanks have deteriated in some cases 

and more seriously, in some cases residues, possibly from the affected tanks 

have resulted in engine damage.



The good news seems to indicate that the affected fiberglass tanks were made 

prior to the mid 1980s - at least for those that have models built after 

that date.

For those interested do a Google search on Ethanol and Fiberglass fuel 

tanks.



It is comforting that we Kitfox folks are not the only ones concerned about 

this issue and there is info out there.



Lowell

---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:19 pm Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

The fun starts ... I think there are a few cars on the road today with

composite or plastic gas tanks.  I wonder what will happen to them when they

have been exposed to EA85 for a year or so.



I still think ethanol is not the answer....  It is just a corrosive

diversion to get a few more votes.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:07 am Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

Lowell,

    I did a lot of web searching and found the same stuff you're talking 

about.  I still have one little concern.  Back when I was working in the 

Submarine world, they had a program called "SUBSAFE".  This program required 

all critical parts in a Submarine to be certified with a long trail of 

paperwork  You could just about track back a piece of metal to the mine 

where the ore came from.  We discussed many times that the old Skystar had 

used a couple different tank manufactures and I never did get a good warm 

feeling as to exactly what materials were used and when.  Bottom line, my 

1995 tanks have no serial numbers or paperwork to tell me what they are made 

of..  Who knows, they might be made of the pre 85 boat stuff.



Don Smythe

---

brodg(at)texas.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 4:33 am Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

Noel, you might note that GM and Ford have intentionally designed some of

their vehicles to run on E85.

Don't know what their fuel tanks are made from, but I'd bet that the car

companies are WAY ahead of most aeroplane builders with regards to this

issue.

Brian



---

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:00 am Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

Consumers' Reports ran a test on it and they don't

seem to back it either.  Haven't finished reading it

yet, but they don't see a gain.



Some say it takes more energy to make than it puts

out.



But I would trade Gov subsidies there instead of

tobacco and maybe we don't need to pay farmers not to

work too?  Even then, there isn't as much to meet the

demand for fuel as some think.



Brazil went to it big time, then backed off.  Still

available everywhere though.  I don't know what they

use for tanks and my Portuguese is too poor to ask. 

I'll see if I can fine someone who speaks English

there and can find out tank materials.



Kurt S.



Do not archive



--- Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   The fun starts ... I think there are a few cars on

 the road today with

 composite or plastic gas tanks.  I wonder what will

 happen to them when they

 have been exposed to EA85 for a year or so.

 

 I still think ethanol is not the answer....  It is

 just a corrosive diversion to get a few more votes.

 

 Noel


	


__________________________________________________

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:02 am Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

Don,  I agree whole heartedly.  My tanks are an interesting story.  I took 

delivery of the kit in March 1993.  Of course the first things were the 

fuselage controlls and fitting all the fuselate attachments: rudder, 

horizontal stab and elevator.  Then I got around to doing the wings, left 

wing first.  That was December 2003.  The wing tank was a right wing tank 

with a left wing tank top, in other words the washout twist was backward.  I 

sent the tank back for an exchange - so I now had wing tanks from two 

production era's nine months apart.



It was the early tank that began leaking at 500 hours, in Idaho, after four 

days soaking in AV Gas.  There is definitely, in my mind, differences in 

wing batches.  Whether the difference has to do with materials or 

workmanship, I have no idea.



I am running an experiment with vinyl ester resin and Kreem as a fuel 

barrior.  I tried to boost the alcohol content of the local fuel - 6% - as 

we speak, but couldn't get the ethanol to mix, so I am using 100% ethanol in 

one series and vinyl ester in the other.  I have the samples under a bell 

jar so I can simulate altitude changes that would cause a solid structure to 

degass at lower air pressures - if there are pin holes in the tanks there is 

air in them.  The samples are held under the liquids in test tubes so I can 

observe degassing bubbles if present.  I take them up to a simulated 14,000 

ft daily and observe for any degassing bubbles.  So far nothing in any of 

the samples, but they only have been submerged since Oct 1.



I will rerport to the list the first sign of failure.



Lowell



---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:02 am Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

Don:



As far as I've heard there is only one composite filler that is used on fuel

tanks.  That is a Vinyl-ester filler.  I've been told the vinyl is part

Epoxy and part Urethane.  They say that's the filler that the new in ground

tanks at service stations is made of.  



I still find it hard to believe that any organic compound will be impervious

to Ethanol.  That stuff even feasts on Aluminium.  Until these tanks have

been in the ground for a number of years filled with EA85 I will be leery of

it's use.  It's not that I think the tanks will come apart in flight, just

that the goop from the fillers might gum up the works in my engine.  Also

there is the issue of carburettor icing.  I know some who say that use of

MOGAS doesn't increase the chance of icing.  Unfortunately I've heard

different from high time commercial pilots.  Ethanol won't help that

situation.



There is a fellow on the Avid list who has been flying an R582 for years

with the 10% fuel in California with no problems.  He says he premixed all

his gas.  That may be the answer to protecting  the gas tanks.  If the

ethanol has more affinity to oil in the fuel than it has to the organic

compounds in the fillers it may leave the fillers alone.  The oil in that

case is acting like a sacrificial anode of a sort.  That fellow has recently

installed a Jab ( wish I had one) but he is still adding a little top lube

to his gas.  It seems to be working.  Time will tell all.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:43 am Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

You must be kidding!



Car manufacturers ahead?  Sure they're grounded!



If the tank on a Pontiac or a focus disintegrates or cracks in three years

you have the car pulled into the dealership where they will install a new

one. Very cheap because of the mass production and the "that will do"

engineering not to mention the ease of dropping an auto tank and shoving a

new one in.  Think you can change out a wing tank in your fox in an hour??



You can't be doing that with planes.  For one point your inspection schedule

should include inspecting the tank at regular intervals.  Many planes have

that on the list of scheduled maintenance.  That way the tank will have to

be changed out before any problems start.  The other thing is cars are not

restricted to operation by weight.  That is half the engineering that goes

into designing a plane.  Can  you imagine trying to get off the ground in

your 'Fox complete with air conditioning, power controls, electric seats,

warmers on everything you may have to touch, EGR pumps, and catalytic

converters and let's not forget the little light to tell you your gas cap

isn't tight.



I think it is more than possible to design a quickly changeable wing tank

for any small plane.  When  it is designed/built there is no doubt I'd

consider installing a couple....  Just in case they contaminate my present

alcohol free fuel supply.



The real answer in both the auto and aviation worlds is in the design of new

engines that don't burn gasoline.  Imagine a hybrid aeroplane engine that

ran on coal oil and sunlight!



Car manufacturers are ahead of car manufacturers a few years ago.  When I

was a kid an old clunker was maybe five years old.  Now they are just

getting out of warranty.  My '90 Miata looks as good as the day it came out

of the factory, back in 89, with the exception of a couple of paint chips.

Yes there have been advancements in the auto world.  Multi port EFI on a

common high pressure rail is one.  ABS is another but everyone in this part

of the world will have problems with their ABS sooner or later.  We get so

much snow and there is so much salt put on out roads the poor ABS

connections really don't stand a chance of lasting too long.   Hmmmmmmm  ABS

on the kitfox????



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:02 am Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

Can you also introduce bending and flexing and vibration that you get in a

flying airplane into your experiment?



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

brodg(at)texas.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:16 am Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

Noel, you seem to be impervious to reason and common sense.

If car gas tanks were failing in use, I'd have a very hard time navigating

any roadway around here due to all the cars that stopped running.

Also, the car companies are not doing "that will do" engineering.  Hello?

Have you noticed that the car warranty periods have been getting longer and

more inclusive than in decades past?  Do you think that these companies

would be in business very long if they were changing out gas tanks, engines,

fuel lines, etc. on every car every couple of years?

Think man.

BTW, glass is an organic compound and you can find GALLONS of ethanol in

every liquor store around the world.

Brian



---

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:28 am Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>

 	  Quote: 	
		   Don:



 As far as I've heard there is only one composite filler that is used on 

 fuel

 tanks.  That is a Vinyl-ester filler.  I've been told the


	


Yep, done read that a thousand times on the internet concerning gas station 

fuel tanks but, back to my one concern,  somebody prove to me that my tanks 

are made of Vinyl-ester.  No serial number, no traceable paperwork, nothing 

from the factory, no quality assurance sign off, just rumors.



Don Smythe

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:32 am Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

At 08:16 AM 10/14/2006, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  BTW, glass is an organic compound and you can find GALLONS of ethanol in

 every liquor store around the world. 	


 Brian, it's not the glass, but the resin matrix that has a problem with solvents.



 I found some definitive information in Professional Boatbuilder. There is a standard, UL1316, to which all underground fiberglass fuel storage tanks in the US are currently being built. (And apparently all underground fuel storage tanks in the US are currently being built of fiberglass.) If the resin you're using, (probably a vinyl-ester based product,) meets UL 1316 you can be reasonably sure it will work with all current auto fuels, and any future fuel anyone might stick in an existing underground storage tank. (Hear that John?) You may be able to use this to obtain a satisfactory interior coating. (I did a quick Google and found nothing.) Interplastic Corporation was mentioned as a possible source for resin. They may also be able to formulate an interior coating, though I'm sure it will be in bulk quantities.



 

 Guy Buchanan

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.     [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:41 am Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

By a chemist's definition, glass in inorganic.



But you can buy booze in plastic bottles, and it has ethanol in it.



Randy

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:07 am Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

Hei Torgeir,



On Oct 14, 2006, at 12:17 AM, Torgeir Mortensen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   So, what kind of resin is used in YOUR Kitfox???   My Kitfox model II 

 (93 mod) is made with West System Resin (the fuel tanks).


	


Interesting. I wonder why they decided for that epoxy resin that was 

developed mainly for the maritime industry and the "cold molding" 

method of bounding thin wood ply with the resin.

Anyway, we have asked West System if their epoxy was ethanol resistant 

and they answered "No, but we are working on it."



Cheers,

Michel

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:54 pm Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

Sorry, the proof reader is out of town.



I am using 100% ethanol in  one series and vinyl ester in the other.  Should 

read 100% ethanol and 6% mogas in the other.



Lowell



---

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:56 pm Post subject: Ethanol and fiberglass tanks - once again

No Noel,  that's where you come in.



Lowell

---

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