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Aileron Differential

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dcaofak(at)acsalaska.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:35 am Post subject: Aileron Differential

Aileron differential on a stock Model III is about  1 1/2 to 1 REVERSE differential.

  

 I found this when I was bored one weekend and  modelled the aileron control system in a computer program.

  

 I believe this was accepted by the factory so that  you would not have to disconnect the aileron controls to fold the wings, that  was a choice for convenient airplane storage and very rudder dependant  flight characteristics.

  

 I chose to redesign the aileron/flap control  mechanism to provide the correct 2 : 1 aileron differential and it makes for a  very pleasant flying aircraft (IMHO).  I do have to disconnect the flaperon  horns to fold the wings.

  

 In the flap deployment area my redesign system can  deploy too much flap, so much so that at near stall speeds there is almost no  aileron control, I have of course limited my flap handle movement, this also  allows the flap mechanism to 'reflex' a few degrees which helps with elevator  trim.

  

 I do not live in a Kitfox rich environment and the  only one I've seen flying (from the outside) was a model II, one time, one  takeoff.  So I cannot compare my Fox's flying characteristics to any  others.

  

 It'll be interesting to hear other people's  experiences.

  

 Regards,

 John Stoner

 KFIII, 582

 Alaska

   [quote][b]

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:49 am Post subject: Aileron Differential

John.,   I bet you find it nicer to  fly  now  than before the mod ? 

  

  

 Dave 

  

  

 <<I chose to redesign the  aileron/flap control mechanism to provide the correct 2 : 1 aileron differential  and it makes for a very pleasant flying aircraft (IMHO).  I do have to  disconnect the flaperon horns to fold the wings.>>

 [quote]   ---

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jdmcbean(at)cableone.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:01 pm Post subject: Aileron Differential

John,  

            The current mix ration is 2:1 from the Model IV through current Super Sport.  You’ll be pleased.. We also have a retrofit kit to convert the Model III to the Model IV mixer assembly.  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

 AUTOTEXTLIST \s "E-mail  Signature" <![endif]-->Fly Safe !!  

John & Debra McBean  

208.337.5111  

www.kitfoxaircraft.com    

"It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!"  

<![endif]--><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

-----Original Message-----

 From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave

 Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 12:48 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Aileron Differential  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

John.,   I bet you find it nicer to fly  now  than before the mod ?   

   

   

Dave   

   

   

[b]<<I chose to redesign the aileron/flap control mechanism to provide the correct 2 : 1 aileron differential and it makes for a very pleasant flying aircraft (IMHO).  I do have to disconnect the flaperon horns to fold the wings.>>[/b]    

----- Original Message -----   

  From: John (dcaofak(at)acsalaska.net) 

    

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)   

Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 1:35 PM  

Subject: Aileron Differential  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

Aileron differential on a stock Model III is about 1 1/2 to 1 REVERSE differential.  

   

I found this when I was bored one weekend and modelled the aileron control system in a computer program.  

   

I believe this was accepted by the factory so that you would not have to disconnect the aileron controls to fold the wings, that was a choice for convenient airplane storage and very rudder dependant flight characteristics.  

   

I chose to redesign the aileron/flap control mechanism to provide the correct 2 : 1 aileron differential and it makes for a very pleasant flying aircraft (IMHO).  I do have to disconnect the flaperon horns to fold the wings.  

   

In the flap deployment area my redesign system can deploy too much flap, so much so that at near stall speeds there is almost no aileron control, I have of course limited my flap handle movement, this also allows the flap mechanism to 'reflex' a few degrees which helps with elevator trim.  

   

I do not live in a Kitfox rich environment and the only one I've seen flying (from the outside) was a model II, one time, one takeoff.  So I cannot compare my Fox's flying characteristics to any others.  

   

It'll be interesting to hear other people's experiences.  

   

Regards,  

John Stoner  

KFIII, 582  

Alaska  [quote]<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>          - The Kitfox-List Email Forum -   --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List              - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -   -->               - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -   -->              - List Contribution Web Site -  Thank you for your generous support!                              -Matt Dralle, List Admin.   --> <![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>[b]

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject: Aileron Differential

On Oct 14, 2006, at 7:35 PM, John wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Aileron differential on a stock Model III is about 1 1/2 to 1 REVERSE 

 differential.


	


I am sorry, John, I don't understand what you mean. Could you explain, 

please? Thank you.



Cheers,

Michel



do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Rex Hefferan

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 147
Location: Olney Springs, Colorado USA "NOT a Kitpig"

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:13 pm Post subject: Aileron Differential

John,

Will this retrofit kit work for models 1 & 2 as well? I couldn't find 

any mention on your websites.

Rex

Colorado



jdmcbean wrote:



[quote] John,



 The current mix ration is 2:1 from the Model IV through current Super 

 Sport. You’ll be pleased.. We also have a retrofit kit to convert the 

 Model III to the Model IV mixer assembly.



 Fly Safe !!



 John & Debra McBean



 208.337.5111



 _www.kitfoxaircraft.com_



 /"It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!"/



 --

_________________
Rex
N740GP - M2/582
Colorado

dcaofak(at)acsalaska.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:39 pm Post subject: Aileron Differential

 	  Quote: 	
		  Michel,Aileron differential is when one aileron moves more degrees than the other when the control stick is deflected.  Reverse differential is when the down aileron moves more than the up aileron.  This conditioncreates more drag on the wing that is on the outside of the turningcircle, which requires a large rudder input to counteract.  The correct differential is for the aileron on the inside of the turn to deflect more up than the aileron on the outside of the turn deflects down.This way the natural difference in drag on the wings makes the turn easier instead of more difficult.  It should also be noted (to the best Aileron differential is when one aileron moves more degrees than the 	
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   [quote][b]

runwayrex(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:32 pm Post subject: Aileron Differential

John McBean,

   I would be interested in learning more about converting the Model 3 planes (and others) to the differential ailerons. Maybe you can post some of the info for us to read.?

Rex in Michigan



-- "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean(at)cableone.net> wrote:



John,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

            The current mix ration is 2:1 from the Model IV through current Super Sport.  You’ll be pleased.. We also have a retrofit kit to convert the Model III to the Model IV mixer assembly.

 

Fly Safe !!

John & Debra McBean

208.337.5111

www.kitfoxaircraft.com  

"It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!"

 

--

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:10 am Post subject: Aileron Differential

On Oct 15, 2006, at 4:38 AM, John wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Aileron differential is when one aileron moves more degrees than the

 other when the control stick is deflected.


	


Thank you, John. I know the theory but I can't understand you saying: " 

Model III is about 1 1/2 to 1 reverse differential."



I thought that Kitfoxes, prior to model IV, had no differential 

aileron, i.e. they moved the same angle up and down, thus inducing some 

adverse yaw. Trying to understand your sentence, I imagine that you are 

saying: If the up aileron moves 10 degrees, then the down aileron moves 

15 to 10 degrees; is that right?

This being said, I don't find the light adverse yaw of my Kitfox a 

problem at all. In any case, the plane has to be flown with the pedals 

at all time. The only time I really use the pedals in a turn is when 

e.g. I do a very square traffic pattern, turning sharp by "throwing" 

the plane in a 45 degrees bank, the "throwing" it back to level.

Last, while adverse yaw is of "no use" really, I wonder if it is not 

desirable in a crosswind landing, when we keep the aileron up on the 

weather side, while the lee side, with its aileron down adding extra 

drag, works in preventing the plane to weathercock. Is this a fact or 

just something I imagine?



Cheers,

Michel

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

dwight purdy

Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:27 am Post subject: Aileron Differential

Micheal

  I fly a model ll. I did not build it and learned to fly with the flap 

handle full off. One day while checking the incident angle of the flaperons 

I found that they were in a reflex position with the handle full down. I 

started flying with the handle about 30% up and the plane is very 

squirrelly  as compared to full down. I like having to fly the plane. When 

you give the controls to your passenger, he is all over the sky. Makes you 

look like the MAN. HA HA.

                              Dwight

At 10:07 AM 10/15/2006 +0200, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

On Oct 15, 2006, at 4:38 AM, John wrote:

>Aileron differential is when one aileron moves more degrees than the

>other when the control stick is deflected.

Thank you, John. I know the theory but I can't understand you saying: " 

Model III is about 1 1/2 to 1 reverse differential."

I thought that Kitfoxes, prior to model IV, had no differential aileron, 

i.e. they moved the same angle up and down, thus inducing some adverse 

yaw. Trying to understand your sentence, I imagine that you are saying: If 

the up aileron moves 10 degrees, then the down aileron moves 15 to 10 

degrees; is that right?

This being said, I don't find the light adverse yaw of my Kitfox a problem 

at all. In any case, the plane has to be flown with the pedals at all 

time. The only time I really use the pedals in a turn is when e.g. I do a 

very square traffic pattern, turning sharp by "throwing" the plane in a 45 

degrees bank, the "throwing" it back to level.

Last, while adverse yaw is of "no use" really, I wonder if it is not 

desirable in a crosswind landing, when we keep the aileron up on the 

weather side, while the lee side, with its aileron down adding extra drag, 

works in preventing the plane to weathercock. Is this a fact or just 

something I imagine?

Cheers,

Michel

--

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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.

_________________
dwight
model II

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:46 am Post subject: Aileron Differential

On Oct 15, 2006, at 4:25 PM, dwight purdy wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I found that they were in a reflex position with the handle full down.


	


Here again, I am stumbling on words, Dwight; what is "reflex position?"



You see, with the "1.5 reverse differential" from John, I also have 

problems to understand because, from what I can read from the builder's 

manual (like you, I bought the plane completed) when the flaperons are 

at the same angle on both sides, a spline extending the it's lower 

surface, must meet the leading edge of the wing a few inches below. 

Which it does, on my plane. My conclusion then is that the chord of the 

flaperon is at a slightly higher AoA than the wing.

Now, if you then measure the angle the flaperon does with full stick 

movement, it will be a greater angle down than up - compared to the 

wing! Not maybe not to the initial reference, which is then the level 

position.

Then I also read that some gliders have negative flaps setting. Hum, it 

gets complicated! 



Cheers,

Michel

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

dwight purdy

Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:22 pm Post subject: Aileron Differential

Don't know if I am using the right word, I think reflex is when flaperons 

are set at less angle of attack than the wing. In the case of kitfoxs 

anything less than that magical set up the manual calls for.



                Dwight



At 08:42 PM 10/15/2006 +0200, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



On Oct 15, 2006, at 4:25 PM, dwight purdy wrote:

>I found that they were in a reflex position with the handle full down.



Here again, I am stumbling on words, Dwight; what is "reflex position?"



You see, with the "1.5 reverse differential" from John, I also have 

problems to understand because, from what I can read from the builder's 

manual (like you, I bought the plane completed) when the flaperons are at 

the same angle on both sides, a spline extending the it's lower surface, 

must meet the leading edge of the wing a few inches below. Which it does, 

on my plane. My conclusion then is that the chord of the flaperon is at a 

slightly higher AoA than the wing.

Now, if you then measure the angle the flaperon does with full stick 

movement, it will be a greater angle down than up - compared to the wing! 

Not maybe not to the initial reference, which is then the level position.

Then I also read that some gliders have negative flaps setting. Hum, it 

gets complicated! 



Cheers,

Michel

--

Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.


	




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_________________
dwight
model II

kitfox(at)bresnan.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:08 pm Post subject: Aileron Differential

John , I would be very interested in your aileron control  modification.

 If I might ask you to send me some information .

 DeWayne Clifford

 kitfox(at)bresnan.net

  

 [quote]   ---

dcaofak(at)acsalaska.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:21 pm Post subject: Aileron Differential

Michel,

 The term 'reflex' flap position I used is the same  as the 'negative' flap position you referred to on sailplanes.

 Your detail discussion of aileron and rudder use in  crosswind landings was very interesting, I had not considered these arguments  before.  Thank you.

  

 DeWayne,

 I would be more than happy to share my aileron  design changes with anyone who is interested.  In general I moved the mixer  mechanism to an under the seat position and then ran push/pull tubes to the  outer edges of the fuselage via bellcranks and then up to the aileron  arms.  This routing allowed a zipper duffel bag to be suspended behind the  seat for light cargo where the old design occupied this space with the mixer  mechanism.  A little application of trigonometry, in particular the law of  sines, to increase differential motion at each bellcrank and you can achieve any  practical degree of differentiation you desire.  This little excursion  deeper into 'experimental' consumed over 100 hours of design, fabrication, and  fuselage mods.  I can take photos when I do my next annual conditon  inspection if you would like to see them (about two months away).

  

 Regards,

 John Stoner

 KFIII, 582

 Alaska

   [quote][b]

rliebmann(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:59 pm Post subject: Aileron Differential

Hi John,

  

 I would be grateful to get drawings and, later on  pictures of your aileron push/pull tubing.Please keep me in the info  loop..

  

 Thanks Much,     Ron   N55KF         rliebmann(at)comcast.net (rliebmann(at)comcast.net) 

  

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 [quote]   ---

mscotter

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 49
Location: Winston-Salem, NC

Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:37 am Post subject: Aileron Differential

John, you've done it now - you've got everyone's interest!  Definitely put some photos, drawings, etc. of your revised linkage up.  I would think the dropbox would be the best place, but that's up to you.

 -Mark Scott

 Elkton, MD

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: "Ron Liebmann" <rliebmann(at)comcast.net> 

    Hi John,

  

 I would be grateful to get drawings and, later on pictures of your aileron push/pull tubing.Please keep me in the info loop..

  

 Thanks Much,     Ron  N55KF         rliebmann(at)comcast.net (rliebmann(at)comcast.net) 

  

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 [quote] ---

_________________
Mark Scott
Winston-Salem, NC

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