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Rebuilding 582's

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rexjan(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:58 pm Post subject: Rebuilding 582's

I am kinda hard  headed at times as I have been racing sleds and we run those WAY

harder and  longer than anyone in their right mind would run an engine you are

flying  behind.  With that being said, I feel that if I can rebuild /  straighten

cranks in race engines (that are straighter than the NEW factory  crank) that

go for 100 miles at a time on the bar (WOT 8,200 RPM+) time after  time and

stay together year after year, I am not shy about rebuilding this  engine.  I am

also not a stupid pilot who takes alot of unnessisary  chances with his life

(well ok there have been a few times lol).  I dont  buy into the arguments that

you have to buy NEW cranks everytime.  If  you take it down, inspect, mike, etc.

and find it within tolerances and put  it back together to specs then I dont

have one second thought about flying  behind it.



Just my thoughts



Hi Leni,

                sorry to see you cop so much flak over wanting to rebuild your 582.  There  is a place for this discussion to let us all that are prepared to listen  acsertain a few pertinent facts. Actually I'm in a similar boat to you. I raced  a 250cc Kart for years. It was single cylinder and ran all race long on 14,000  RPM.  Yes despite comments that an aircraft motor is running much longer  etc there is a lot of lessons learn't doing this sort of thing and I'm willing  to bet a 582 out of the box wouln't handle that for long. We also rebuilt cranks  to way better than factory specs. We also polished and shot peened rods and  changed them every six months. We learnt not to use metal caged mains etc etc.  You can't tell me a lot of this isn't relevant to making a better 582. I have a  Blue Head that might have reached 150 hrs by now so I don't expect to have  to worry about it anytime soon. However when I do I'm very tempted to want to do  it myself. Sure Rotax have learn't a lot over the years and the 582 is now a  remarkable motor. Anyone would be foolish to ignore what Rotax have learn't. I  think the trick is to be aware of all that and to be able to get parts to  rebuild the crank etc. My understanding is that you can only buy the crank as a  whole from Rotax no patrs as in rods, crank pins etc. I believe there is some  after market pistons though that should be better. Also a big problem is Rotax  have prices that are way over the fence. 

   If we could all discuss this subject here  calmly we could gather a lot of info to our mutual benifit and yes we can no  doubt make a better engine. I am not saying that making a lot of horsepower and  running a long time aren't two entirely different things although a motor that  will hang in for racing at 14,000 obviously is bullet proof at 6,800 so some  aspects do apply. I also would not like to see just anyone rebuild their own  plane motor just because it's cheaper. Obviously there is a lot of knowledge,  experience and expertise needed not to mention tools and jigs. I heard that  Rotax actually raised the price of parts so high so people would would opt for a  new motor rather than rebuild. Apparently there were a lot of rebuild failures  which is not good for safety plus of course Rotax was getting a bad reputation.  Also if one upgraded from Grey head to Blue in the course of sorting motor  problems then there was less motor failures. I understand too that not being  able to buy individual crank parts stops poor crank rebuilds. I think one issue  was broken crank webs where their was a machine mark. If one has to buy a new  crank that problem gets solved instead of a crank with that mark going back into  service only to fail at some point.

   I say let's discuss what's involved and we  can get a better product. If we save some money that's fine but personally I'd  pay more rather than less to get that better product. At a very casual glance at  all this I feel better pistons are available. Bearings should not be a problem  nor seals. However what about crank parts especially the rods. Actually just new  rods would probably be fine and I'd polish and peen them but as I understand it  we can't get these. However their might well be an alternative !

   Leni please don't be put off. Your knowledge  and experience do count. As for those that don't have that then yes by all means  don't fiddle. Just go for a new engine or at least a rebuilt one by some one  like Bob Robertson but don't tell the rest of us what to do with our knowledge  and experience.

                                                  Rex   from Australia.

   [quote][b]

eskflyer(at)lvcisp.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:00 pm Post subject: Rebuilding 582's

Well said REX . I know there are bearings available  to rebuild but i cannot find out where yet . trying to get these secrets is like  trying to get a straight answer from my wife . it aint gonna happen lol . Im my  experience running the 582 it is the rod needle bearings on the crank and piston  pin that tend to disintegrate . I Hope we can find a source for them .  

  

 Fly safe fly low fly slow Flyfun fly KITFOX  

 John Perry

 Kitfox 2 N718PD

  

 Do not archive

 [quote]   

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   	
[b]

akflyer
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: Re: Rebuilding 582's

Just to let you know, I just got off the phone putting in the order for all the seals, o-rings, bearings etc,... YES THEY ARE ROTAX PARTS... I found them at CPS.  I downloaded the PDF manual and price list, then called and ordered them.  Not quite as bad as one would expect, but I bet there is a cheaper place to get them somewhere, I was just ready to order now and went for it.. All said, the crank parts are $512.66.  The only problem is they dont have the lower conrod needle bearings.  I am still on the hunt for them so if you know a place that has them please let me know..



I am still looking for a source to machine the case for the water pump seal upgrade.



OK now I have to get on the soap box just a little...

I have been involved in several "certified" aircraft rebuilds and this spring the TOH of a lycoming 0320.  I was spose to be the parts grunt and two A&P's (one with AI) were the brains.... I was appalled at the lack of attention to detail by the two monkeys.  Con-rod nuts installed upside down (yes they have a right and wrong side), wrong nuts or studs used, using a TQ wrench that had NEVER been calibrated or in most cases not using a TQ wrench at all.  The wrong assembly lube used, wrong rod bearings installed.... the list goes on to include just about everything they did....I guess with my QC mentality, my attention to detail is VERY great.  If I think I know something by heart I still look it up just so I can pat myself on the back for knowing the right answer all along... but more often than not, it saves my butt...My point in all this is, I trust no one more than myself to work on my aircraft.  This goes for for all aspects of the construction.  I can tell horor stories all day long but I will quit at this.



I will keep you posted on the progress and how the parts look when I get them.



Thanks

Last edited by akflyer on Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:03 am; edited 1 time in total

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:39 am Post subject: Rebuilding 582's

At 12:27 PM 10/23/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		     Leni please don't be put off. Your knowledge and experience do count. 

 As for those that don't have that then yes by all means don't fiddle. 

 Just go for a new engine or at least a rebuilt one by some one like Bob 

 Robertson but don't tell the rest of us what to do with our knowledge and 

 experience.


	


Rex,

         I agree with your sentiments but want to add that the reason I 

often do work myself is because I then KNOW the quality of the work. When 

you send your engine to a shop you hope the work gets done consistent with 

that shop's reputation, by the people who made that reputation, and that 

they're just as good, just as sharp, and just as conscientious as they ever 

were. Unfortunately "S&%t Happens" and yours may be the one or the first 

engine that doesn't get done right, and you have no way of knowing until it 

fails. That's not to say I will do my own rebuild, because I just don't 

have the expertise and the tools; but I would fully endorse someone else 

doing so who does.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:58 pm Post subject: Rebuilding 582's

That's why they pound it into us to use the maintenance manual.   Copy the

pages for the job check everything off, get it inspected by another set of

eyes if you want keep the copied sheets stapled into the technical manuals.

In Canada it is actually illegal to use any measuring equipment on an

aircraft that is not calibrated.  That includes Torque Wrenches, Voltmeters,

Barfield testers, micrometers... He** even pressure gauges to inflate tires

with nitrogen have to be calibrated.  Each tool carries a sticker with the

calibration data on it.  Yes I have seen guys use "standard torque"  by

their definition it is snugged with a wrench.  I figure if the AMO has to go

through the expense of obtaining all the equipment, manuals and the

calibration$ the least I can do is use them.  



I spent a few sleepless nights when a flash light was missing from my boss's

tool box.  Six weeks later we found it, still turned on, where the pilot who

did the final independent inspection left it, under the right floor board of

his C185.  



I set up a shadow board for the AMO and also had an inventory on my tool

box.  Every tool was locked up before quitting time.  I had no problems

lending a tool out to other engineers as long as I made a note and left that

note in the place the tool was supposed to be.   Never lost a tool.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Richard Rabbers

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 114
Location: Benton Harbor, MI - USA

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding 582's

 	  Quote: 	
		  Con-rod nuts installed upside down (yes they have a right and wrong side) 	




Leni, 



This statement struck a nerve ! 



I'd say...if you can't do the work.. (I count myself on this list) .. then DO everything possible within limits - try to get the chance to observe! at the least. Who cares most about an engine? The guy sitting behind it in the air.



My only catastrophic engine failure, to date, was an IO-520 and a C-206. In my case, I'd just come from Nassau (90 minutes over water), was just clear of the shore passing over Ft Lauderdale (FLL) - boom .... grrrrrrr - I was on tower freq. - made an urgent request to land (declined declaring emergency, though may have had to if there hadn't been a gap in 9L traffic)  ... powered back - not nice engine noise and vibration - short base, then landing... rolled with no power on to the north ramp. - yes, the trucks did roll in for a look... 

----------------

On tear-down (~50-60 hours since rebuild) a connecting rod bolt was found to have been installed ' backwards' - excess length had been 'gently' hammering away on the crank case until it finally banged through.



I found a rebuilder in the area, and was able to monitor every step of the new work. (the original shop denied responsibility, the rebuild was done for the previous owner) 



Grrrrrrrrr!



Do not archive

_________________
Richard in SW Michigan
Model 1 / 618 - full-lotus floats (restoration)

Malcolmbru(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject: Rebuilding 582's

call air screw performances in Arizona   Steve batty has rebuilt  moor 582s with aftermarket partes and rebuilt moor cranks than anybody I know  and he fly's one of them Canadian Kit fox clones       malcolm  

  [quote][b]

akflyer
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding 582's

Thanks I will be calling him tomorrow.

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:30 pm Post subject: Rebuilding 582's

---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:39 am Post subject: Rebuilding 582's

Oops I should have stated for certified aircraft and their appliances.  Home

built or to be correct for TC it's "Amateur Built" is the same as the

states.  When I got so used to working one way I sometimes forget not

everyone has to operate by the rules I have to use at work.



Noel

Do not archive

[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

akflyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilding 582's

You were right.  Rotax does offer the rods, bearings, pin and shims.  One call solved it all.. But this is only for the grey head.  I am told they do not offer the set for the blue head.  I do not know what the differences may be.



Now for the kicker... after you add up all the parts you need to zero time your crank, you are only looking at maybe a 175-200.00 savings over just buying a new crank.  This is based on retail prices, unless one can find a cheaper source for parts....In most cases, you are better off to just bite the bullet and buy a new one, unless you have the knowledge and equipment to safely complete the job yourself.



I am still on the hunt for a cheaper supplier, but at least I know now that the parts can be obtained and the work completed.



Thanks again for the tip on who to call.

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