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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:03 am    Post subject: Fuselage join Reply with quote

I have a visible join the upper half lip being slightly proud as a result sliding down over the bottom half.  The joint is good and the difference is slight.
What is the normal practice for the visible join line between the fuze halves?  Does one have to sand down to the epoxy or can one fill on top of sanded the gel coat?
thanks
Will


William Daniell

LONGPORT
+57 310 295 0744


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Fred Klein



Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:32 pm    Post subject: Fuselage join Reply with quote

Quote:
On Jan 6, 2015, at 11:03 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
I have a visible join the upper half lip being slightly proud as a result sliding down over the bottom half. The joint is good and the difference is slight.

What is the normal practice for the visible join line between the fuze halves? Does one have to sand down to the epoxy or can one fill on top of sanded the gel coat?


Will…I had the opposite problem…i.e., my lower half was proud, and problem solved by adding spacers at each cleco and thickening the Redux bed. For your case, i’d of course remove the gel coat along the edge of the upper half and rough up the gel coat on the lower half; I don’t think it’s necessary to remove the entire gel coat in order to add the requisite filler. Perhaps others w/ more knowledge than I will make other recommendations.

Fred
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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:56 pm    Post subject: Fuselage join Reply with quote

William, You can of course stick a go fast stripe over the join line, but if your 'amour propre' insists on a perfect finish then fill any low areas and sand it all down to a perfect finish. You should in any case sand all the gel coat surface down to complete matness without the smallest bit of refective surface visible, to give the optimum key to whatever paint system you plan to use. One word of warning on which: The release agent used in the original gel coat mould is a strong allergy inducer. Make very sure you have washed all gel coated surfaces very thoroughly before you start sanding them and wear a good mask. You might be totally immune to normal fibreglass dust but get caught out by the gel coat dust which is a more sinister animal!
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ


On 2015-01-06 22:31, Fred Klein wrote: [quote]
Quote:
On Jan 6, 2015, at 11:03 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
I have a visible join the upper half lip being slightly proud as a result sliding down over the bottom half. The joint is good and the difference is slight.

What is the normal practice for the visible join line between the fuze halves? Does one have to sand down to the epoxy or can one fill on top of sanded the gel coat?


Will...I had the opposite problem...i.e., my lower half was proud, and problem solved by adding spacers at each cleco and thickening the Redux bed. For your case, i'd of course remove the gel coat along the edge of the upper half and rough up the gel coat on the lower half; I don't think it's necessary to remove the entire gel coat in order to add the requisite filler. Perhaps others w/ more knowledge than I will make other recommendations.

Fred
Quote:


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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:02 pm    Post subject: Fuselage join Reply with quote

thanks...go faster stripe is a great idea.
As for gel coal thanks for warning ...wash with soap or solvent? On Jan 6, 2015 5:59 PM, <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)> wrote:[quote]
William, You can of course stick a go fast stripe over the join line, but if your 'amour propre' insists on a perfect finish then fill any low areas and sand it all down to a perfect finish. You should in any case sand all the gel coat surface down to complete matness without the smallest bit of refective surface visible, to give the optimum key to whatever paint system you plan to use. One word of warning on which: The release agent used in the original gel coat mould is a strong allergy inducer. Make very sure you have washed all gel coated surfaces very thoroughly before you start sanding them and wear a good mask. You might be totally immune to normal fibreglass dust but get caught out by the gel coat dust which is a more sinister animal!
Regards,  David Joyce, G-XSDJ
   

On 2015-01-06 22:31, Fred Klein wrote:
Quote:

Quote:
On Jan 6, 2015, at 11:03 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

I have a visible join the upper half lip being slightly proud as a result sliding down over the bottom half.  The joint is good and the difference is slight.
 
What is the normal practice for the visible join line between the fuze halves?  Does one have to sand down to the epoxy or can one fill on top of sanded the gel coat?


Will...I had the opposite problem...i.e., my lower half was proud, and problem solved by adding spacers at each cleco and thickening the Redux bed. For your case, i'd of course remove the gel coat along the edge of the upper half and rough up the gel coat on the lower half; I don't think it's necessary to remove the entire gel coat in order to add the requisite filler. Perhaps others w/ more knowledge than I will make other recommendations.
 
Fred

Quote:


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ank">www.mrrace.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
tp://forums.matronics.com


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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:40 am    Post subject: Fuselage join Reply with quote

William, I don't know that it matters much. It is in fact mentioned in the early part of the build manual but easily overlooked. I know of two very serious allergic reactions, one leading to the guy giving up the build
Regards, David

On 2015-01-06 23:01, William Daniell wrote: [quote]
thanks...go faster stripe is a great idea.
As for gel coal thanks for warning ...wash with soap or solvent? On Jan 6, 2015 5:59 PM, <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)> wrote:
Quote:

William, You can of course stick a go fast stripe over the join line, but if your 'amour propre' insists on a perfect finish then fill any low areas and sand it all down to a perfect finish. You should in any case sand all the gel coat surface down to complete matness without the smallest bit of refective surface visible, to give the optimum key to whatever paint system you plan to use. One word of warning on which: The release agent used in the original gel coat mould is a strong allergy inducer. Make very sure you have washed all gel coated surfaces very thoroughly before you start sanding them and wear a good mask. You might be totally immune to normal fibreglass dust but get caught out by the gel coat dust which is a more sinister animal!
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ


On 2015-01-06 22:31, Fred Klein wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
On Jan 6, 2015, at 11:03 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
I have a visible join the upper half lip being slightly proud as a result sliding down over the bottom half. The joint is good and the difference is slight.

What is the normal practice for the visible join line between the fuze halves?� Does one have to sand down to the epoxy or can one fill on top of sanded the gel coat?


Will...I had the opposite problem...i.e., my lower half was proud, and problem solved by adding spacers at each cleco and thickening the Redux bed. For your case, i'd of course remove the gel coat along the edge of the upper half and rough up the gel coat on the lower half; I don't think it's necessary to remove the entire gel coat in order to add the requisite filler. Perhaps others w/ more knowledge than I will make other recommendations.

Fred
Quote:


ectric.com
">www.buildersbooks.com
builthelp.com
lotstore.com
m
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_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
ank">www.mrrace.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
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ectric.com
">www.buildersbooks.com
builthelp.com
lotstore.com
m
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ics.com

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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:52 am    Post subject: Fuselage join Reply with quote

AS it happens I washed the fuze down with soap and water and thus far no allergic reaction.
I will have to remember to do the wings...or get the paint shop to do it Smile.
Will

William Daniell

LONGPORT
+57 310 295 0744


On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 3:40 AM, <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)> wrote:
[quote]
 
William, I don't know that it matters much. It is in fact mentioned in the early part of the build manual but easily overlooked. I know of two very serious allergic reactions, one leading to the guy giving up the build
Regards, David   

On 2015-01-06 23:01, William Daniell wrote:
Quote:

thanks...go faster stripe is a great idea.
As for gel coal thanks for warning ...wash with soap or solvent? On Jan 6, 2015 5:59 PM, <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)> wrote:
Quote:

William, You can of course stick a go fast stripe over the join line, but if your 'amour propre' insists on a perfect finish then fill any low areas and sand it all down to a perfect finish. You should in any case sand all the gel coat surface down to complete matness without the smallest bit of refective surface visible, to give the optimum key to whatever paint system you plan to use. One word of warning on which: The release agent used in the original gel coat mould is a strong allergy inducer. Make very sure you have washed all gel coated surfaces very thoroughly before you start sanding them and wear a good mask. You might be totally immune to normal fibreglass dust but get caught out by the gel coat dust which is a more sinister animal!
Regards,  David Joyce, G-XSDJ
   

On 2015-01-06 22:31, Fred Klein wrote:
Quote:

Quote:
On Jan 6, 2015, at 11:03 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

I have a visible join the upper half lip being slightly proud as a result sliding down over the bottom half.  The joint is good and the difference is slight.
 
What is the normal practice for the visible join line between the fuze halves?  Does one have to sand down to the epoxy or can one fill on top of sanded the gel coat?


Will...I had the opposite problem...i.e., my lower half was proud, and problem solved by adding spacers at each cleco and thickening the Redux bed. For your case, i'd of course remove the gel coat along the edge of the upper half and rough up the gel coat on the lower half; I don't think it's necessary to remove the entire gel coat in order to add the requisite filler. Perhaps others w/ more knowledge than I will make other recommendations.
 
Fred

Quote:


ectric.com
">www.buildersbooks.com
builthelp.com
lotstore.com
m
.matronics.com/contribution
ttp://www.matronics.com



_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
ank">www.mrrace.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
tp://forums.matronics.com




ectric.com
">www.buildersbooks.com
builthelp.com
lotstore.com
m
.matronics.com/contribution
ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
ics.com



_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
ank">www.mrrace.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
tp://forums.matronics.com


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gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:30 am    Post subject: Fuselage join Reply with quote

Fred,
My problem was opposite of Wills and more like yours, where the lower fuselage skin surface was proud of the upper, and had to add spacers to the lower fuselage jog at the clecos to hold the upper skin surface out off the jog a bit. I have not glued the upper fuse to the lower yet, so here's my question.

The thin fiberglass spacer discs were stacked one atop the other, until the upper and lower fuse were in the same plane (no compensation for glue thickness). My plan is to mix as little flox into the glue as possible to keep it as viscous, but prevent running. However, I am still concerned the thickness of the glue might mess up the 'calibration' that was done.

How did it go for you (or anyone else doing a similar procedure)? Did you have to back compensate a bit?
Regards,
Greg




Quote:
On Jan 6, 2015, at 11:03 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
I have a visible join the upper half lip being slightly proud as a result sliding down over the bottom half. The joint is good and the difference is slight.


What is the normal practice for the visible join line between the fuze halves? Does one have to sand down to the epoxy or can one fill on top of sanded the gel coat?



Will…I had the opposite problem…i.e., my lower half was proud, and problem solved by adding spacers at each cleco and thickening the Redux bed. For your case, i’d of course remove the gel coat along the edge of the upper half and rough up the gel coat on the lower half; I don’t think it’s necessary to remove the entire gel coat in order to add the requisite filler. Perhaps others w/ more knowledge than I will make other recommendations.


Fred

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Fred Klein



Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:02 am    Post subject: Fuselage join Reply with quote

Quote:
On Jan 7, 2015, at 6:29 AM, Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net (gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

My problem was opposite of Wills and more like yours, where the lower fuselage skin surface was proud of the upper, and had to add spacers to the lower fuselage jog at the clecos to hold the upper skin surface out off the jog a bit. I have not glued the upper fuse to the lower yet, so here's my question.

The thin fiberglass spacer discs were stacked one atop the other, until the upper and lower fuse were in the same plane (no compensation for glue thickness). My plan is to mix as little flox into the glue as possible to keep it as viscous, but prevent running. However, I am still concerned the thickness of the glue might mess up the 'calibration' that was done.

How did it go for you (or anyone else doing a similar procedure)? Did you have to back compensate a bit?



Greg,

I used two thicknesses of spacers (regular, and thin [T]) to which I used 5 min. epoxy to bond to flange…when mixing the Redux, I set a bit aside before adding flox and dabbed pure Redux onto each spacer. When applying the stiff, flox’ed Redux, I attempted to keep it a tad away from the spacers, relying upon the “squishing” to fill any voids…my clecos were spaced 6” apart...it seemed to work AOK.

F.

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gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:03 pm    Post subject: Fuselage join Reply with quote

Thanks Fred, it sounds like I am Good to go as it sits....when the time comes. [quote][b]

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Fred Klein



Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:35 pm    Post subject: Fuselage join Reply with quote

Quote:
On Jan 7, 2015, at 12:02 PM, Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net (gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
Thanks Fred, it sounds like I am Good to go as it sits....when the time comes.

Greg…one thing to look out for:

Because I fitted and removed top from bottom so many times, I found that some of the clecos would pull thru the bottom flange.

This necessitated epoxying small squares of scrap FG to the inside face of the flange and drilling fresh holes which the clecoes would grip against.

F.
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dpark748(at)icloud.com
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:38 pm    Post subject: Fuselage join Reply with quote

When i did mine we had applicators and one mixer. Any joint line was later vanished with filler. Thanks to Nev Eyre.
Dave L-LDVO

Sent from my iPhone

On 7 Jan 2015, at 20:02, Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net (gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
[quote]

Thanks Fred, it sounds like I am Good to go as it sits....when the time comes.
Quote:


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gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:17 pm    Post subject: Fuselage join Reply with quote

Dave: Yeah, many hands will be needed for sure, ...or if masochistic work at leisure in cold temps and heat the place up to cure the glue Smile

Fred: I have a number of holes that have pulled thru already that will need the procedure. Will have to remember to use a proper-size drill bit to look for ones that are close to failing, to prevent 'gotchyas' during the procedure.

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of david park
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2015 12:38 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Fuselage join

When i did mine we had applicators and one mixer. Any joint line was later vanished with filler. Thanks to Nev Eyre.
Dave L-LDVO

Sent from my iPhone

On 7 Jan 2015, at 20:02, Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net (gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
[quote]

Thanks Fred, it sounds like I am Good to go as it sits....when the time comes.
Quote:




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Fred Klein



Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:31 pm    Post subject: Fuselage join Reply with quote

Quote:
On Jan 7, 2015, at 4:16 PM, Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net (gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
Fred: I have a number of holes that have pulled thru already that will need the procedure. Will have to remember to use a proper-size drill bit to look for ones that are close to failing, to prevent 'gotchyas' during the procedure.

Greg...Amen to that…my point exactly…good luck, F.
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rlborger(at)mac.com
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:38 pm    Post subject: Fuselage join Reply with quote

Guys,
You can also use a small washer to prevent the cleco from pulling through the fiberglass. Just be sure to grease it and the cleco well or you’ll play heck getting them out again ;^)

Blue skies & tailwinds,Bob BorgerEuropa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs).Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP3705 Lynchburg Dr.Corinth, TX 76208-5331Cel: 817-992-1117rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)
On Jan 7, 2015, at 6:16 PM, Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net (gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
Dave: Yeah, many hands will be needed for sure, ...or if masochistic work at leisure in cold temps and heat the place up to cure the glue Smile

Fred: I have a number of holes that have pulled thru already that will need the procedure. Will have to remember to use a proper-size drill bit to look for ones that are close to failing, to prevent 'gotchyas' during the procedure.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:08 pm    Post subject: Fuselage join Reply with quote

Yes, but the mini troll that I hire to stay inside the fuselage while the clecos are being inserted in the fuse-join procedure would be really happy for the extra hazard pay for the bumps, blood splatter and bruises he may aquire for doing that job :O

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Borger
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2015 4:38 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Fuselage join

Guys,

You can also use a small washer to prevent the cleco from pulling through the fiberglass. Just be sure to grease it and the cleco well or you’ll play heck getting them out again ;^)


Blue skies & tailwinds,Bob BorgerEuropa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs).Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP3705 Lynchburg Dr.Corinth, TX 76208-5331Cel: 817-992-1117rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)

On Jan 7, 2015, at 6:16 PM, Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net (gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
Dave: Yeah, many hands will be needed for sure, ...or if masochistic work at leisure in cold temps and heat the place up to cure the glue Smile

Fred: I have a number of holes that have pulled thru already that will need the procedure. Will have to remember to use a proper-size drill bit to look for ones that are close to failing, to prevent 'gotchyas' during the procedure.


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rparigoris



Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 797

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Fuselage join Reply with quote

Hi Group

As far as the fuse seam joint: "awe, just screw it"!

I used Clecos for a gazillion on and offs, but screws that captured very nice.

I detailed my top bond on, could save a bunch of bullets in your foot:
http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=35521
(3 pages)

There are more notes than this so study pics and my notes. Here are a few:
** pay attention for need to trim sternpost (easy to overlook)
** as I noted use enough fasteners, you can see recovery (I found out when I cut vent hole)
** my kit was missing foam and second layer of glass on the inboard side, so I added foam and glass
** My fin ribs fit terrible, so I mutilated and made them fit
** poor fit starboard side corner fixed by "dolphin" repair

Good luck.
Top bond on was a fun part of build! Enjoy.
Sincerely
Ron Parigoris


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Fred Klein



Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:43 pm    Post subject: Fuselage join Reply with quote

Quote:
On Jan 7, 2015, at 5:09 PM, rparigoris <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us (rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us)> wrote:
Top bond on was a fun part of build! Enjoy.

�and�this enjoyment multiplies many times over, realizable only in retrospect, by the extent to which top-bonding is delayed until EVERY conceivable installation anticipated aft of the �D� bulkhead is complete...
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budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:55 pm    Post subject: Fuselage join Reply with quote

Time for my two cents:

Bob Berube introduced me to using the self tapping screws but caution is
necessary.

To fit the top I use US 3/32 inch clecos. This type of cleco does not pull
through as easily since the lower flange is four layers. After fitting the
top for the fourth time or more, sometimes I have to upgrade to 1/8 inch.
We have probably close to 500 clecos so no big deal for us.

For those using the British style temporary fastener:
I will use washers with the British style fastener as the lip on these
fasteners deteriorate the hole in fiberglass pretty quick. If I have to put
on a washer, I have to prep the area, and I glue the washer on with super
glue. Lasts a long time. Gluing is all about the prep. I wash the whole
kit first with TSP or detergent to remove the release wax. Then I clean the
joint with acetone and scotch brite. If you sand, and it makes dust, it's
ready to glue. No dust on sanding, bad joint.

Like Ron and many others, I will screw on my top on final, because I can put
the screw in and pull down until the skins come to a nice fit. Don't pull
the screw down hard and force the two skins to pull down so hard as to
squeeze all the glue out. Nor do you want the screw to pull the outer skin
away from the inner. It's a technique. Be careful. Screws are the same
principle as the screw type temp fastener, which can be pulled down too
tight as well.

Technique:
To get a nice fit, and get control of my joint, I open up my top side holes
a bit to allow the screw to spin and not grip, and then allow the self
tapping screw threads to bite into the lower so I can adjust the skin pull
down with careful screw gun use...

As for fit. I try to keep the sides level, but don't worry. Just fill it.
The sides are flat on the kit, and I like to fill the sides then block a
nice curvy rounded side. If the filler ever gets beyond 3/32 inch, consider
putting a layer of 2 oz. glass over the filler. Peel ply and its ready for
a bit more filler... No cracking. If you are worrying about your walkway
area showing cracks around the wing fillet to skin, we lay one layer of
carbon from just behind the wing spar out to the first forward rib to
stiffen the skin, and to prevent cracks in the filler which is scary seeing
cracks in your wing. Filler is a necessary evil in a composite airplane.
Learn the technique. I started learning to fill by doing my wheel pants. I
have found that nice wheel pants take as long to fill as the fuselage. All
those curvy fillets are a pain.

Have a happy new year you all.

Best Regards,
Bud Yerly

--------------------------------------------------
From: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2015 8:09 PM
To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Fuselage join

Quote:

<rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>

Hi Group

As far as the fuse seam joint: "awe, just screw it"!

I used Clecos for a gazillion on and offs, but screws that captured very
nice.

I detailed my top bond on, could save a bunch of bullets in your foot:
http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=35521
(3 pages)

There are more notes than this so study pics and my notes. Here are a few:
** pay attention for need to trim sternpost (easy to overlook)
** as I noted use enough fasteners, you can see recovery (I found out when
I cut vent hole)
** my kit was missing foam and second layer of glass on the inboard side,
so I added foam and glass
** My fin ribs fit terrible, so I mutilated and made them fit
** poor fit starboard side corner fixed by "dolphin" repair

Good luck.
Top bond on was a fun part of build! Enjoy.
Sincerely
Ron Parigoris


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=436762#436762





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pete(at)lawless.info
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:05 am    Post subject: Fuselage join Reply with quote

Just as an extra precaution give the screws a good dose of WD40 or
similar before fitting then they come out easily once the glue has gone
off. I had mine in a pot pre dosed before I started the fit.

Pete
G-RMAC Classic #109

On 08/01/15 01:54, Bud Yerly wrote:
Quote:


Time for my two cents:

Bob Berube introduced me to using the self tapping screws but caution
is necessary.

To fit the top I use US 3/32 inch clecos. This type of cleco does not
pull through as easily since the lower flange is four layers. After
fitting the top for the fourth time or more, sometimes I have to
upgrade to 1/8 inch. We have probably close to 500 clecos so no big
deal for us.

For those using the British style temporary fastener:
I will use washers with the British style fastener as the lip on these
fasteners deteriorate the hole in fiberglass pretty quick. If I have
to put on a washer, I have to prep the area, and I glue the washer on
with super glue. Lasts a long time. Gluing is all about the prep. I
wash the whole kit first with TSP or detergent to remove the release
wax. Then I clean the joint with acetone and scotch brite. If you
sand, and it makes dust, it's ready to glue. No dust on sanding, bad
joint.

Like Ron and many others, I will screw on my top on final, because I
can put the screw in and pull down until the skins come to a nice
fit. Don't pull the screw down hard and force the two skins to pull
down so hard as to squeeze all the glue out. Nor do you want the
screw to pull the outer skin away from the inner. It's a technique.
Be careful. Screws are the same principle as the screw type temp
fastener, which can be pulled down too tight as well.

Technique:
To get a nice fit, and get control of my joint, I open up my top side
holes a bit to allow the screw to spin and not grip, and then allow
the self tapping screw threads to bite into the lower so I can adjust
the skin pull down with careful screw gun use...

As for fit. I try to keep the sides level, but don't worry. Just
fill it. The sides are flat on the kit, and I like to fill the sides
then block a nice curvy rounded side. If the filler ever gets beyond
3/32 inch, consider putting a layer of 2 oz. glass over the filler.
Peel ply and its ready for a bit more filler... No cracking. If you
are worrying about your walkway area showing cracks around the wing
fillet to skin, we lay one layer of carbon from just behind the wing
spar out to the first forward rib to stiffen the skin, and to prevent
cracks in the filler which is scary seeing cracks in your wing.
Filler is a necessary evil in a composite airplane. Learn the
technique. I started learning to fill by doing my wheel pants. I
have found that nice wheel pants take as long to fill as the
fuselage. All those curvy fillets are a pain.

Have a happy new year you all.

Best Regards,
Bud Yerly

--------------------------------------------------
From: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2015 8:09 PM
To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Fuselage join

>
> <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
> Hi Group
>
> As far as the fuse seam joint: "awe, just screw it"!
>
> I used Clecos for a gazillion on and offs, but screws that captured
> very nice.
>
> I detailed my top bond on, could save a bunch of bullets in your foot:
> http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=35521
> (3 pages)
>
> There are more notes than this so study pics and my notes. Here are a
> few:
> ** pay attention for need to trim sternpost (easy to overlook)
> ** as I noted use enough fasteners, you can see recovery (I found out
> when I cut vent hole)
> ** my kit was missing foam and second layer of glass on the inboard
> side, so I added foam and glass
> ** My fin ribs fit terrible, so I mutilated and made them fit
> ** poor fit starboard side corner fixed by "dolphin" repair
>
> Good luck.
> Top bond on was a fun part of build! Enjoy.
> Sincerely
> Ron Parigoris
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=436762#436762
>



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kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:52 am    Post subject: Fuselage join Reply with quote

Alternatively, don't put any oil on. Just turn c-clockwise 1/4 turn after a few hours cure time. Even when fully cured, the screws will come out without any problem.
Karl







Quote:
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2015 09:05:03 +0000
From: pete(at)lawless.info
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Fuselage join

--> Europa-List message posted by: Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info>

Just as an extra precaution give the screws a good dose of WD40 or
similar before fitting then they come out easily once the glue has gone
off. I had mine in a pot pre dosed before I started the fit.

Pete
G-RMAC Classic #109

On 08/01/15 01:54, Bud Yerly wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bud Yerly" <budyerly(at)msn.com>
>
> Time for my two cents:
>
> Bob Berube introduced me to using the self tapping screws but caution
> is necessary.
>
> To fit the top I use US 3/32 inch clecos. This type of cleco does not
> pull through as easily since the lower flange is four layers. After
> fitting the top for the fourth time or more, sometimes I have to
> upgrade to 1/8 inch. We have probably close to 500 clecos so no big
> deal for us.
>
> For those using the British style temporary fastener:
> I will use washers with the British style fastener as the lip on these
> fasteners deteriorate the hole in fiberglass pretty quick. If I have
> to put on a washer, I have to prep the area, and I glue the washer on
> with super glue. Lasts a long time. Gluing is all about the prep. I
> wash the whole kit first with TSP or detergent to remove the release
> wax. Then I clean the joint with acetone and scotch brite. If you
> sand, and it makes dust, it's ready to glue. No dust on sanding, bad
> joint.
>
> Like Ron and many others, I will screw on my top on final, because I
> can put the screw in and pull down until the skins come to a nice
> fit. Don't pull the screw down hard and force the two skins to pull
> down so hard as to squeeze all the glue out. Nor do you want the
> screw to pull the outer skin away from the inner. It's a technique.
> Be careful. Screws are the same principle as the screw type temp
> fastener, which can be pulled down too tight as well.
>
> Technique:
> To get a nice fit, and get control of my joint, I open up my top side
> holes a bit to allow the screw to spin and not grip, and then allow
> the self tapping screw threads to bite into the lower so I can adjust
> the skin pull down with careful screw gun use...
>
> As for fit. I try to keep the sides level, but don't worry. Just
> fill it. The sides are flat on the kit, and I like to fill the sides
> then block a nice curvy rounded side. If the filler ever gets beyond
> 3/32 inch, consider putting a layer of 2 oz. glass over the filler.
> Peel ply and its ready for a bit more filler... No cracking. If you
> are worrying about your walkway area showing cracks around the wing
> fillet to skin, we lay one layer of carbon from just behind the wing
> spar out to the first forward rib to stiffen the skin, and to prevent
> cracks in the filler which is scary seeing cracks in your wing.
> Filler is a necessary evil in a composite airplane. Learn the
> technique. I started learning to fill by doing my wheel pants. I
> have found that nice wheel pants take as long to fill as the
> fuselage. All those curvy fillets are a pain.
>
> Have a happy new year you all.
>
> Best Regards,
> Bud Yerly
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2015 8:09 PM
> To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Fuselage join
>
>> --> Europa-List message posted by: "rparigoris"
>> <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>>
>> Hi Group
>>
>> As far as the fuse seam joint: "awe, just screw it"!
>>
>> I used Clecos for a gazillion on and offs, but screws that captured
>> very nice.
>>
>> I detailed my top bond on, could save a bunch of bullets in your foot:
>> http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=35521
>> (3 pages)
>>
>> There are more notes than this so study pics and my notes. Here are a
>> few:
>> ** pay attention for need to trim sternpost (easy to overlook)
>> ** as I noted use enough fasteners, you can see recovery (I found out
>> when I cut vent hole)
>> ** my kit was missing foam and second layer of glass on the inboard
>> side, so I added foam and glass
>> ** My fin ribs fit terrible, so I mutilated and made them fit
>> ** poor fit starboard side corner fixed by "dolphin" repair
>>
>> Good luck.
>> Top bond on was a fun part of build! Enjoy.
>> Sincerely
>> Ron Parigoris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=436762#436762
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>

&gt=====================

Quote:
_================





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