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williamtsullivan(at)att.n
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 Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:18 am Post subject: Bourke engine |
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Click on various stuff in this link. My brother sent it to me, thinking I'd be interested. With Rotax dropping the small 2-strokes, there is a need for replacements. The weight to HP ratio looks pretty good. Does anyone have any experience/comments on this one?
http://www.bourke-engine.com/ani
Bill Sullivan
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:49 am Post subject: Bourke engine |
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On 1/25/2015 11:18 AM, william sullivan wrote:
| Quote: |
Click on various stuff in this link. My brother sent it to me, thinking I'd be interested. With Rotax dropping the small 2-strokes, there is a need for replacements. The weight to HP ratio looks pretty good. Does anyone have any experience/comments on this one?
http://www.bourke-engine.com/ani
I'd suggest finding an independent engineering evaluation. My thoughts:
|
Consider how severe the imbalance will be with both pistons moving the
same direction, then how much the counterweight will weigh to counteract
that force (without contributing any power). Then consider how long a
sliding line-contact sliding bearing is going to last when subjected to
those forces. The claim is 1/4 pound (0.25 lb) per hp/hr. This is better
by about 30% than the most efficient internal combustion engine ever
built, and it's still a 2 stroke engine. Isn't it a bit strange that a
design that's been around long enough for the patents to expire, and is
super clean, and beats the best tech out there by 30%, hasn't taken over
every engine market on the planet? And it uses 'detonation' to extract
more energy from the fuel? What happens to a piston when you have
detonation in the combustion chamber? (Answer help: nothing good.)
Current technology in 4 strokes can come pretty close to the same
power/weight ratio as old tech 2 strokes. Just need someone to make them
available at an affordable price.
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undoctor
Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
Location: Bethelhem, PA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:09 am Post subject: Bourke engine |
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Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?
Good idea and it could spin very high revs. Problem is, they can't keep the tips from wearing on the triangular piston, so very limited application in the real world.
Also remember a ceramic engine on the drawing boards which was to rival sliced bread for greatness. Haven't heard any more about that one. That's OK. Just keep inventing, many out there ideas have been successful.
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
Do not archive
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
<div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> </div><div>Date:01/25/2015 1:48 PM (GMT-05:00) </div><div>To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com </div><div>Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine </div><div>
</div>
On 1/25/2015 11:18 AM, william sullivan wrote:
| Quote: |
Click on various stuff in this link. My brother sent it to me, thinking I'd be interested. With Rotax dropping the small 2-strokes, there is a need for replacements. The weight to HP ratio looks pretty good. Does anyone have any experience/comments on this one?
http://www.bourke-engine.com/ani
I'd suggest finding an independent engineering evaluation. My thoughts: |
Consider how severe the imbalance will be with both pistons moving the
same direction, then how much the counterweight will weigh to counteract
that force (without contributing any power). Then consider how long a
sliding line-contact sliding bearing is going to last when subjected to
those forces. The claim is 1/4 pound (0.25 lb) per hp/hr. This is better
by about 30% than the most efficient internal combustion engine ever
built, and it's still a 2 stroke engine. Isn't it a bit strange that a
design that's been around long enough for the patents to expire, and is
super clean, and beats the best tech out there by 30%, hasn't taken over
every engine market on the planet? And it uses 'detonation' to extract
more energy from the fuel? What happens to a piston when you have
detonation in the combustion chamber? (Answer help: nothing good.)
Current technology in 4 strokes can come pretty close to the same
power/weight ratio as old tech 2 strokes. Just need someone to make them
available at an affordable price.
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:06 pm Post subject: Bourke engine |
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Bourke built many examples of his engine for trucks, outboard motors, and aircraft. They all worked, ran for hundreds of hours with little wear to any parts, and produced the advertised horsepower. One of the aircraft engines is in the EAA museum.Like any engine the start up costs going into production would be astronomical and for an aircraft engine then there are certification costs. All for a small diminishing market. Sad to say it won't happen, but that's the way it is.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 1:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?
Good idea and it could spin very high revs. Problem is, they can't keep the tips from wearing on the triangular piston, so very limited application in the real world.
Also remember a ceramic engine on the drawing boards which was to rival sliced bread for greatness. Haven't heard any more about that one. That's OK. Just keep inventing, many out there ideas have been successful.
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
Do not archive
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Charlie England
Date:01/25/2015 1:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Bourke engine
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)>
On 1/25/2015 11:18 AM, william sullivan wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net (williamtsullivan(at)att.net)>
Click on various stuff in this link. My brother sent it to me, thinking I'd be interested. With Rotax dropping the small 2-strokes, there is a need for replacements. The weight to HP ratio looks pretty good. Does anyone have any experience/comments on this one?
http://www.bourke-engine.com/ani
I'd suggest finding an independent engineering evaluation. My thoughts:
|
Consider how severe the imbalance will be with both pistons moving the
same direction, then how much the counterweight will weigh to counteract
that force (without contributing any power). Then consider how long a
sliding line-contact sliding bearing is going to last when subjected to
those forces. The claim is 1/4 pound (0.25 lb) per hp/hr. This is better
by about 30% than the most efficient internal combustion engine ever
built, and it's still a 2 stroke engine. Isn't it a bit strange that a
design that's been around long enough for the patents to expire, and is
super clean, and beats the best tech out there by 30%, hasn't taken over
every engine market on the planet? And it uses 'detonation' to extract
more energy from the fuel? What happens to a piston when you have
detonation in the combustion chamber? (Answer help: nothing good.)
Current technology in 4 strokes can come pretty close to the same
power/weight ratio as old tech 2 strokes. Just need someone to make them
available at an affordable priceolb-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhttp://www.matronics.com==================
|
--
Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
-Andre Gide
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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patrickjladd(at)hotmail.c
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:48 am Post subject: Bourke engine |
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<<Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?>>
I had a car with a Wankel engine. A beautiful car with the super smooth non vibrating engine.It would run happily on very low grade petrol but only gave about 25miles to the gallon. Acceleration was nothing to write home about but the non reciprocating design made for super smooth running. As you say the wearing of the ceramic tips of the three point rotor was its downfall. Great pity. I remember that it had a manual gear shift but no clutch pedal. The clutch was operated electrically when you held the knob on the top of the gear stick. So the act of changing gear automatically operated the clutch. It had a device which matched the engine speed to the wheel speed when you changed gear.
There were several Wankel aero engines being played with a few years ago but they seem to have fallen by the wayside. Pity, it had such promise.
Pat
From: Richard Girard (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:05 PM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Bourke engine
Bourke built many examples of his engine for trucks, outboard motors, and aircraft. They all worked, ran for hundreds of hours with little wear to any parts, and produced the advertised horsepower. One of the aircraft engines is in the EAA museum. Like any engine the start up costs going into production would be astronomical and for an aircraft engine then there are certification costs. All for a small diminishing market. Sad to say it won't happen, but that's the way it is.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 1:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?
Good idea and it could spin very high revs. Problem is, they can't keep the tips from wearing on the triangular piston, so very limited application in the real world.
Also remember a ceramic engine on the drawing boards which was to rival sliced bread for greatness. Haven't heard any more about that one. That's OK. Just keep inventing, many out there ideas have been successful.
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
Do not archive
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Charlie England
Date:01/25/2015 1:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Bourke engine
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)>
On 1/25/2015 11:18 AM, william sullivan wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net (williamtsullivan(at)att.net)>
Click on various stuff in this link. My brother sent it to me, thinking I'd be interested. With Rotax dropping the small 2-strokes, there is a need for replacements. The weight to HP ratio looks pretty good. Does anyone have any experience/comments on this one?
http://www.bourke-engine.com/ani
I'd suggest finding an independent engineering evaluation. My thoughts:
|
Consider how severe the imbalance will be with both pistons moving the
same direction, then how much the counterweight will weigh to counteract
that force (without contributing any power). Then consider how long a
sliding line-contact sliding bearing is going to last when subjected to
those forces. The claim is 1/4 pound (0.25 lb) per hp/hr. This is better
by about 30% than the most efficient internal combustion engine ever
built, and it's still a 2 stroke engine. Isn't it a bit strange that a
design that's been around long enough for the patents to expire, and is
super clean, and beats the best tech out there by 30%, hasn't taken over
every engine market on the planet? And it uses 'detonation' to extract
more energy from the fuel? What happens to a piston when you have
detonation in the combustion chamber? (Answer help: nothing good.)
Current technology in 4 strokes can come pretty close to the same
power/weight ratio as old tech 2 strokes. Just need someone to make them
available at an affordable priceolb-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhttp://www.matronics.com==================
|
--
Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
-Andre Gide
[quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
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Herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:29 am Post subject: Bourke engine |
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Pat
If memory serves,I believe, Mazda has solved most of the technical problems with the Wankel.
an early problem, from memory, came about when the factory decided to use standard auto engine oil to lubricate the apex seals...and side seals... That resulted in some necessary oil burning and a build up of carbon... One can imagine the debate when engineers suggest that low ash two stroke oil be used...?
The power and fuel consumption came from the two stroke design... From my memory... Herb
On 01/27/2015 05:47 AM, Patrick Ladd wrote:
[quote] <<Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?>>
I had a car with a Wankel engine. A beautiful car with the super smooth non vibrating engine.It would run happily on very low grade petrol but only gave about 25miles to the gallon. Acceleration was nothing to write home about but the non reciprocating design made for super smooth running. As you say the wearing of the ceramic tips of the three point rotor was its downfall. Great pity. I remember that it had a manual gear shift but no clutch pedal. The clutch was operated electrically when you held the knob on the top of the gear stick. So the act of changing gear automatically operated the clutch. It had a device which matched the engine speed to the wheel speed when you changed gear.
There were several Wankel aero engines being played with a few years ago but they seem to have fallen by the wayside. Pity, it had such promise.
Pat
From: Richard Girard (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:05 PM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Bourke engine
Bourke built many examples of his engine for trucks, outboard motors, and aircraft. They all worked, ran for hundreds of hours with little wear to any parts, and produced the advertised horsepower. One of the aircraft engines is in the EAA museum. Like any engine the start up costs going into production would be astronomical and for an aircraft engine then there are certification costs. All for a small diminishing market. Sad to say it won't happen, but that's the way it is.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 1:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?
Good idea and it could spin very high revs. Problem is, they can't keep the tips from wearing on the triangular piston, so very limited application in the real world.
Also remember a ceramic engine on the drawing boards which was to rival sliced bread for greatness. Haven't heard any more about that one. That's OK. Just keep inventing, many out there ideas have been successful.
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
Do not archive
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Charlie England
Date:01/25/2015 1:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Bourke engine
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)>
On 1/25/2015 11:18 AM, william sullivan wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net (williamtsullivan(at)att.net)>
>
> Click on various stuff in this link. My brother sent it to me, thinking I'd be interested. With Rotax dropping the small 2-strokes, there is a need for replacements. The weight to HP ratio looks pretty good. Does anyone have any experience/comments on this one?
>
> http://www.bourke-engine.com/ani
>
>
I'd suggest finding an independent engineering evaluation. My thoughts:
Consider how severe the imbalance will be with both pistons moving the
same direction, then how much the counterweight will weigh to counteract
that force (without contributing any power). Then consider how long a
sliding line-contact sliding bearing is going to last when subjected to
those forces. The claim is 1/4 pound (0.25 lb) per hp/hr. This is better
by about 30% than the most efficient internal combustion engine ever
built, and it's still a 2 stroke engine. Isn't it a bit strange that a
design that's been around long enough for the patents to expire, and is
super clean, and beats the best tech out there by 30%, hasn't taken over
every engine market on the planet? And it uses 'detonation' to extract
more energy from the fuel? What happens to a piston when you have
detonation in the combustion chamber? (Answer help: nothing good.)
Current technology in 4 strokes can come pretty close to the same
power/weight ratio as old tech 2 strokes. Just need someone to make them
available at an affordable priceolb-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhttp://www.matronics.com==================
|
--
Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
-Andre Gide
[b]
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
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undoctor
Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
Location: Bethelhem, PA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:05 am Post subject: Bourke engine |
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Good to hear from you, Pat. How are things across the pond? Still grounded? I am and I don't like it. Hope to change that early flying season.
Sorry I misspelled Wankel. Memory gets fuzzy from years ago.
Herb, I was aware Mazda used the Wankel; do they or anyone still?
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
Do not archive
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Herb
Date:01/27/2015 8:29 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
Pat
If memory serves,I believe, Mazda has solved most of the technical problems with the Wankel.
an early problem, from memory, came about when the factory decided to use standard auto engine oil to lubricate the apex seals...and side seals... That resulted in some necessary oil burning and a build up of carbon... One can imagine the debate when engineers suggest that low ash two stroke oil be used...?
The power and fuel consumption came from the two stroke design... From my memory... Herb
On 01/27/2015 05:47 AM, Patrick Ladd wrote:
[quote] <<Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?>>
I had a car with a Wankel engine. A beautiful car with the super smooth non vibrating engine.It would run happily on very low grade petrol but only gave about 25miles to the gallon. Acceleration was nothing to write home about but the non reciprocating design made for super smooth running. As you say the wearing of the ceramic tips of the three point rotor was its downfall. Great pity. I remember that it had a manual gear shift but no clutch pedal. The clutch was operated electrically when you held the knob on the top of the gear stick. So the act of changing gear automatically operated the clutch. It had a device which matched the engine speed to the wheel speed when you changed gear.
There were several Wankel aero engines being played with a few years ago but they seem to have fallen by the wayside. Pity, it had such promise.
Pat
From: Richard Girard (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:05 PM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
Bourke built many examples of his engine for trucks, outboard motors, and aircraft. They all worked, ran for hundreds of hours with little wear to any parts, and produced the advertised horsepower. One of the aircraft engines is in the EAA museum. Like any engine the start up costs going into production would be astronomical and for an aircraft engine then there are certification costs. All for a small diminishing market. Sad to say it won't happen, but that's the way it is.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 1:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?
Good idea and it could spin very high revs. Problem is, they can't keep the tips from wearing on the triangular piston, so very limited application in the real world.
Also remember a ceramic engine on the drawing boards which was to rival sliced bread for greatness. Haven't heard any more about that one. That's OK. Just keep inventing, many out there ideas have been successful.
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
Do not archive
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Charlie England
Date:01/25/2015 1:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)>
On 1/25/2015 11:18 AM, william sullivan wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net (williamtsullivan(at)att.net)>
>
> Click on various stuff in this link. My brother sent it to me, thinking I'd be interested. With Rotax dropping the small 2-strokes, there is a need for replacements. The weight to HP ratio looks pretty good. Does anyone have any experience/comments on this one?
>
> http://www.bourke-engine.com/ani
>
>
I'd suggest finding an independent engineering evaluation. My thoughts:
Consider how severe the imbalance will be with both pistons moving the
same direction, then how much the counterweight will weigh to counteract
that force (without contributing any power). Then consider how long a
sliding line-contact sliding bearing is going to last when subjected to
those forces. The claim is 1/4 pound (0.25 lb) per hp/hr. This is better
by about 30% than the most efficient internal combustion engine ever
built, and it's still a 2 stroke engine. Isn't it a bit strange that a
design that's been around long enough for the patents to expire, and is
super clean, and beats the best tech out there by 30%, hasn't taken over
every engine market on the planet? And it uses 'detonation' to extract
more energy from the fuel? What happens to a piston when you have
detonation in the combustion chamber? (Answer help: nothing good.)
Current technology in 4 strokes can come pretty close to the same
power/weight ratio as old tech 2 strokes. Just need someone to make them
available at an affordable priceolb-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhttp://www.matronics.com==================
|
--
Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
-Andre Gide
[b]
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:17 am Post subject: Bourke engine |
|
|
I'm currently installing a Mazda Renesis rotary in an RV-7, and know quite a few people that are flying the Renesis and the older 13B/20B engines quite successfully.
The engine is a true 4 stroke engine; not 2 stroke. But because of the design, each rotor face goes through all 4 'strokes' in one complete rotation of the rotor (but the rotor rotates at 1/3 of the rpm of the eccentric shaft (crankshaft). Apex seal wear in a Wankel rotary hasn't been a problem in over 30 years. Tracy Crook (recently retired from building engine controllers and reduction drives) put about 900 hours in an RV-4 on a junkyard 13B, and had barely measurable wear on any of the seals at tear down (removed to install a Renesis in that airframe). Sticking seals due to using crankcase oil to lube the apex seals can still be a problem in some Mazda RX7/RX8 cars with some maintenance practices (lack of). Racers (and aircraft installers) disable the supply from the crankcase, and either add a source of 2 stroke oil to the apex seal lube pump, or remove the pump and do a very light (3/4--1 oz per gallon) 2 stroke oil premix with fuel. There's still regular automotive oil in the crankcase. Fuel economy in the Mazda rotaries used in aircraft is typically about 10% worse than a properly leaned Lycoming. Since most Lyc drivers are afraid to lean properly, the real world fuel economy is pretty close to the same as a Lyc.
There are some European sources of smaller Wankel designs (light enough and with low enough HP to work on a Kolb) that are coming into more common use, but it's rare to see them in the USA. In the 150-250 HP range, no one's demonstrated another auto conversion engine that's as light as the rotary and can stand up to the high duty cycle of a/c use. My installation weighs ~320 lbs all-up, prior to adding fluids. This is comparable to a Lyc 160 HP installation, but the Renesis is easily capable of 190-210 HP in a/c use.
While the Bourke engine may 'work', the performance claims on that web site are far outside the bounds of rational thought. It's not just a few technical problems to overcome, like apex seal wear in a rotary. The claims exceed what's achievable without violating the laws of thermodynamics. 
Charlie
On 1/27/2015 7:29 AM, Herb wrote:
[quote] Pat
If memory serves,I believe, Mazda has solved most of the technical problems with the Wankel.
an early problem, from memory, came about when the factory decided to use standard auto engine oil to lubricate the apex seals...and side seals... That resulted in some necessary oil burning and a build up of carbon... One can imagine the debate when engineers suggest that low ash two stroke oil be used...?
The power and fuel consumption came from the two stroke design... From my memory... Herb
On 01/27/2015 05:47 AM, Patrick Ladd wrote:
| Quote: | <<Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?>>
I had a car with a Wankel engine. A beautiful car with the super smooth non vibrating engine.It would run happily on very low grade petrol but only gave about 25miles to the gallon. Acceleration was nothing to write home about but the non reciprocating design made for super smooth running. As you say the wearing of the ceramic tips of the three point rotor was its downfall. Great pity. I remember that it had a manual gear shift but no clutch pedal. The clutch was operated electrically when you held the knob on the top of the gear stick. So the act of changing gear automatically operated the clutch. It had a device which matched the engine speed to the wheel speed when you changed gear.
There were several Wankel aero engines being played with a few years ago but they seem to have fallen by the wayside. Pity, it had such promise.
Pat
From: Richard Girard (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:05 PM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Bourke engine
Bourke built many examples of his engine for trucks, outboard motors, and aircraft. They all worked, ran for hundreds of hours with little wear to any parts, and produced the advertised horsepower. One of the aircraft engines is in the EAA museum. Like any engine the start up costs going into production would be astronomical and for an aircraft engine then there are certification costs. All for a small diminishing market. Sad to say it won't happen, but that's the way it is.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 1:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?
Good idea and it could spin very high revs. Problem is, they can't keep the tips from wearing on the triangular piston, so very limited application in the real world.
Also remember a ceramic engine on the drawing boards which was to rival sliced bread for greatness. Haven't heard any more about that one. That's OK. Just keep inventing, many out there ideas have been successful.
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
Do not archive
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Charlie England
Date:01/25/2015 1:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Bourke engine
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)>
On 1/25/2015 11:18 AM, william sullivan wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net (williamtsullivan(at)att.net)>
>
> Click on various stuff in this link. My brother sent it to me, thinking I'd be interested. With Rotax dropping the small 2-strokes, there is a need for replacements. The weight to HP ratio looks pretty good. Does anyone have any experience/comments on this one?
>
> http://www.bourke-engine.com/ani
>
>
I'd suggest finding an independent engineering evaluation. My thoughts:
Consider how severe the imbalance will be with both pistons moving the
same direction, then how much the counterweight will weigh to counteract
that force (without contributing any power). Then consider how long a
sliding line-contact sliding bearing is going to last when subjected to
those forces. The claim is 1/4 pound (0.25 lb) per hp/hr. This is better
by about 30% than the most efficient internal combustion engine ever
built, and it's still a 2 stroke engine. Isn't it a bit strange that a
design that's been around long enough for the patents to expire, and is
super clean, and beats the best tech out there by 30%, hasn't taken over
every engine market on the planet? And it uses 'detonation' to extract
more energy from the fuel? What happens to a piston when you have
detonation in the combustion chamber? (Answer help: nothing good.)
Current technology in 4 strokes can come pretty close to the same
power/weight ratio as old tech 2 strokes. Just need someone to make them
available at an affordable priceolb-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhttp://www.matronics.com==================
|
--
Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
-Andre Gide
|
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:26 am Post subject: Bourke engine |
|
|
Here's one project that should get the attention of Kolb drivers:
http://www.hybridcars.com/mazda-could-produce-mazda2-ev-with-rotary-range-extender/
There's also a repeatedly resurfacing rumor that they will re-introduce the RX7/RX8 sports car with a 16X rotary engine (the engine is already developed).
http://www.mazda.com/stories/rotary/16x/
Charlie
On 1/27/2015 10:04 AM, undoctor wrote:
[quote] Good to hear from you, Pat. How are things across the pond? Still grounded? I am and I don't like it. Hope to change that early flying season.
Sorry I misspelled Wankel. Memory gets fuzzy from years ago.
Herb, I was aware Mazda used the Wankel; do they or anyone still?
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
Do not archive
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Herb
Date:01/27/2015 8:29 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Bourke engine
Pat
If memory serves,I believe, Mazda has solved most of the technical problems with the Wankel.
an early problem, from memory, came about when the factory decided to use standard auto engine oil to lubricate the apex seals...and side seals... That resulted in some necessary oil burning and a build up of carbon... One can imagine the debate when engineers suggest that low ash two stroke oil be used...?
The power and fuel consumption came from the two stroke design... From my memory... Herb
On 01/27/2015 05:47 AM, Patrick Ladd wrote:
| Quote: | <<Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?>>
I had a car with a Wankel engine. A beautiful car with the super smooth non vibrating engine.It would run happily on very low grade petrol but only gave about 25miles to the gallon. Acceleration was nothing to write home about but the non reciprocating design made for super smooth running. As you say the wearing of the ceramic tips of the three point rotor was its downfall. Great pity. I remember that it had a manual gear shift but no clutch pedal. The clutch was operated electrically when you held the knob on the top of the gear stick. So the act of changing gear automatically operated the clutch. It had a device which matched the engine speed to the wheel speed when you changed gear.
There were several Wankel aero engines being played with a few years ago but they seem to have fallen by the wayside. Pity, it had such promise.
Pat
From: Richard Girard (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:05 PM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Bourke engine
Bourke built many examples of his engine for trucks, outboard motors, and aircraft. They all worked, ran for hundreds of hours with little wear to any parts, and produced the advertised horsepower. One of the aircraft engines is in the EAA museum. Like any engine the start up costs going into production would be astronomical and for an aircraft engine then there are certification costs. All for a small diminishing market. Sad to say it won't happen, but that's the way it is.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 1:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?
Good idea and it could spin very high revs. Problem is, they can't keep the tips from wearing on the triangular piston, so very limited application in the real world.
Also remember a ceramic engine on the drawing boards which was to rival sliced bread for greatness. Haven't heard any more about that one. That's OK. Just keep inventing, many out there ideas have been successful.
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
Do not archive
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Charlie England
Date:01/25/2015 1:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Bourke engine
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)>
On 1/25/2015 11:18 AM, william sullivan wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net (williamtsullivan(at)att.net)>
>
> Click on various stuff in this link. My brother sent it to me, thinking I'd be interested. With Rotax dropping the small 2-strokes, there is a need for replacements. The weight to HP ratio looks pretty good. Does anyone have any experience/comments on this one?
>
> http://www.bourke-engine.com/ani
>
>
I'd suggest finding an independent engineering evaluation. My thoughts:
Consider how severe the imbalance will be with both pistons moving the
same direction, then how much the counterweight will weigh to counteract
that force (without contributing any power). Then consider how long a
sliding line-contact sliding bearing is going to last when subjected to
those forces. The claim is 1/4 pound (0.25 lb) per hp/hr. This is better
by about 30% than the most efficient internal combustion engine ever
built, and it's still a 2 stroke engine. Isn't it a bit strange that a
design that's been around long enough for the patents to expire, and is
super clean, and beats the best tech out there by 30%, hasn't taken over
every engine market on the planet? And it uses 'detonation' to extract
more energy from the fuel? What happens to a piston when you have
detonation in the combustion chamber? (Answer help: nothing good.)
Current technology in 4 strokes can come pretty close to the same
power/weight ratio as old tech 2 strokes. Just need someone to make them
available at an affordable priceolb-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhttp://www.matronics.com==================
|
--
Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
-Andre Gide
|
[b]
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
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Herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:42 am Post subject: Bourke engine |
|
|
Its all coming back to me...I chatted with Tracy some 20 years ago...at length...for he was all too happy to share his rotary experiences... and I recall that Mazda fixed the oil problem with new and improved seals working with other companies in Japan..
Herb
On 01/27/2015 10:16 AM, Charlie England wrote:
[quote] I'm currently installing a Mazda Renesis rotary in an RV-7, and know quite a few people that are flying the Renesis and the older 13B/20B engines quite successfully.
The engine is a true 4 stroke engine; not 2 stroke. But because of the design, each rotor face goes through all 4 'strokes' in one complete rotation of the rotor (but the rotor rotates at 1/3 of the rpm of the eccentric shaft (crankshaft). Apex seal wear in a Wankel rotary hasn't been a problem in over 30 years. Tracy Crook (recently retired from building engine controllers and reduction drives) put about 900 hours in an RV-4 on a junkyard 13B, and had barely measurable wear on any of the seals at tear down (removed to install a Renesis in that airframe). Sticking seals due to using crankcase oil to lube the apex seals can still be a problem in some Mazda RX7/RX8 cars with some maintenance practices (lack of). Racers (and aircraft installers) disable the supply from the crankcase, and either add a source of 2 stroke oil to the apex seal lube pump, or remove the pump and do a very light (3/4--1 oz per gallon) 2 stroke oil premix with fuel. There's still regular automotive oil in the crankcase. Fuel economy in the Mazda rotaries used in aircraft is typically about 10% worse than a properly leaned Lycoming. Since most Lyc drivers are afraid to lean properly, the real world fuel economy is pretty close to the same as a Lyc.
There are some European sources of smaller Wankel designs (light enough and with low enough HP to work on a Kolb) that are coming into more common use, but it's rare to see them in the USA. In the 150-250 HP range, no one's demonstrated another auto conversion engine that's as light as the rotary and can stand up to the high duty cycle of a/c use. My installation weighs ~320 lbs all-up, prior to adding fluids. This is comparable to a Lyc 160 HP installation, but the Renesis is easily capable of 190-210 HP in a/c use.
While the Bourke engine may 'work', the performance claims on that web site are far outside the bounds of rational thought. It's not just a few technical problems to overcome, like apex seal wear in a rotary. The claims exceed what's achievable without violating the laws of thermodynamics.
Charlie
On 1/27/2015 7:29 AM, Herb wrote:
| Quote: | Pat
If memory serves,I believe, Mazda has solved most of the technical problems with the Wankel.
an early problem, from memory, came about when the factory decided to use standard auto engine oil to lubricate the apex seals...and side seals... That resulted in some necessary oil burning and a build up of carbon... One can imagine the debate when engineers suggest that low ash two stroke oil be used...?
The power and fuel consumption came from the two stroke design... From my memory... Herb
On 01/27/2015 05:47 AM, Patrick Ladd wrote:
| Quote: | <<Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?>>
I had a car with a Wankel engine. A beautiful car with the super smooth non vibrating engine.It would run happily on very low grade petrol but only gave about 25miles to the gallon. Acceleration was nothing to write home about but the non reciprocating design made for super smooth running. As you say the wearing of the ceramic tips of the three point rotor was its downfall. Great pity. I remember that it had a manual gear shift but no clutch pedal. The clutch was operated electrically when you held the knob on the top of the gear stick. So the act of changing gear automatically operated the clutch. It had a device which matched the engine speed to the wheel speed when you changed gear.
There were several Wankel aero engines being played with a few years ago but they seem to have fallen by the wayside. Pity, it had such promise.
Pat
From: Richard Girard (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:05 PM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Bourke engine
Bourke built many examples of his engine for trucks, outboard motors, and aircraft. They all worked, ran for hundreds of hours with little wear to any parts, and produced the advertised horsepower. One of the aircraft engines is in the EAA museum. Like any engine the start up costs going into production would be astronomical and for an aircraft engine then there are certification costs. All for a small diminishing market. Sad to say it won't happen, but that's the way it is.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 1:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?
Good idea and it could spin very high revs. Problem is, they can't keep the tips from wearing on the triangular piston, so very limited application in the real world.
Also remember a ceramic engine on the drawing boards which was to rival sliced bread for greatness. Haven't heard any more about that one. That's OK. Just keep inventing, many out there ideas have been successful.
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
Do not archive
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Charlie England
Date:01/25/2015 1:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Bourke engine
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)>
On 1/25/2015 11:18 AM, william sullivan wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net (williamtsullivan(at)att.net)>
>
> Click on various stuff in this link. My brother sent it to me, thinking I'd be interested. With Rotax dropping the small 2-strokes, there is a need for replacements. The weight to HP ratio looks pretty good. Does anyone have any experience/comments on this one?
>
> http://www.bourke-engine.com/ani
>
>
I'd suggest finding an independent engineering evaluation. My thoughts:
Consider how severe the imbalance will be with both pistons moving the
same direction, then how much the counterweight will weigh to counteract
that force (without contributing any power). Then consider how long a
sliding line-contact sliding bearing is going to last when subjected to
those forces. The claim is 1/4 pound (0.25 lb) per hp/hr. This is better
by about 30% than the most efficient internal combustion engine ever
built, and it's still a 2 stroke engine. Isn't it a bit strange that a
design that's been around long enough for the patents to expire, and is
super clean, and beats the best tech out there by 30%, hasn't taken over
every engine market on the planet? And it uses 'detonation' to extract
more energy from the fuel? What happens to a piston when you have
detonation in the combustion chamber? (Answer help: nothing good.)
Current technology in 4 strokes can come pretty close to the same
power/weight ratio as old tech 2 strokes. Just need someone to make them
available at an affordable priceolb-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhttp://www.matronics.com==================
|
--
Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
-Andre Gide
|
|
[b]
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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undoctor
Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
Location: Bethelhem, PA
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:10 am Post subject: Bourke engine |
|
|
Great rundown, Charlie. Thanks!
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Charlie England
Date:01/27/2015 11:25 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
Here's one project that should get the attention of Kolb drivers:
http://www.hybridcars.com/mazda-could-produce-mazda2-ev-with-rotary-range-extender/
There's also a repeatedly resurfacing rumor that they will re-introduce the RX7/RX8 sports car with a 16X rotary engine (the engine is already developed).
http://www.mazda.com/stories/rotary/16x/
Charlie
On 1/27/2015 10:04 AM, undoctor wrote:
[quote] Good to hear from you, Pat. How are things across the pond? Still grounded? I am and I don't like it. Hope to change that early flying season.
Sorry I misspelled Wankel. Memory gets fuzzy from years ago.
Herb, I was aware Mazda used the Wankel; do they or anyone still?
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
Do not archive
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Herb
Date:01/27/2015 8:29 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
Pat
If memory serves,I believe, Mazda has solved most of the technical problems with the Wankel.
an early problem, from memory, came about when the factory decided to use standard auto engine oil to lubricate the apex seals...and side seals... That resulted in some necessary oil burning and a build up of carbon... One can imagine the debate when engineers suggest that low ash two stroke oil be used...?
The power and fuel consumption came from the two stroke design... From my memory... Herb
On 01/27/2015 05:47 AM, Patrick Ladd wrote:
| Quote: | <<Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?>>
I had a car with a Wankel engine. A beautiful car with the super smooth non vibrating engine.It would run happily on very low grade petrol but only gave about 25miles to the gallon. Acceleration was nothing to write home about but the non reciprocating design made for super smooth running. As you say the wearing of the ceramic tips of the three point rotor was its downfall. Great pity. I remember that it had a manual gear shift but no clutch pedal. The clutch was operated electrically when you held the knob on the top of the gear stick. So the act of changing gear automatically operated the clutch. It had a device which matched the engine speed to the wheel speed when you changed gear.
There were several Wankel aero engines being played with a few years ago but they seem to have fallen by the wayside. Pity, it had such promise.
Pat
From: Richard Girard (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:05 PM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
Bourke built many examples of his engine for trucks, outboard motors, and aircraft. They all worked, ran for hundreds of hours with little wear to any parts, and produced the advertised horsepower. One of the aircraft engines is in the EAA museum. Like any engine the start up costs going into production would be astronomical and for an aircraft engine then there are certification costs. All for a small diminishing market. Sad to say it won't happen, but that's the way it is.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 1:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?
Good idea and it could spin very high revs. Problem is, they can't keep the tips from wearing on the triangular piston, so very limited application in the real world.
Also remember a ceramic engine on the drawing boards which was to rival sliced bread for greatness. Haven't heard any more about that one. That's OK. Just keep inventing, many out there ideas have been successful.
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
Do not archive
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Charlie England
Date:01/25/2015 1:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)>
On 1/25/2015 11:18 AM, william sullivan wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net (williamtsullivan(at)att.net)>
>
> Click on various stuff in this link. My brother sent it to me, thinking I'd be interested. With Rotax dropping the small 2-strokes, there is a need for replacements. The weight to HP ratio looks pretty good. Does anyone have any experience/comments on this one?
>
> http://www.bourke-engine.com/ani
>
>
I'd suggest finding an independent engineering evaluation. My thoughts:
Consider how severe the imbalance will be with both pistons moving the
same direction, then how much the counterweight will weigh to counteract
that force (without contributing any power). Then consider how long a
sliding line-contact sliding bearing is going to last when subjected to
those forces. The claim is 1/4 pound (0.25 lb) per hp/hr. This is better
by about 30% than the most efficient internal combustion engine ever
built, and it's still a 2 stroke engine. Isn't it a bit strange that a
design that's been around long enough for the patents to expire, and is
super clean, and beats the best tech out there by 30%, hasn't taken over
every engine market on the planet? And it uses 'detonation' to extract
more energy from the fuel? What happens to a piston when you have
detonation in the combustion chamber? (Answer help: nothing good.)
Current technology in 4 strokes can come pretty close to the same
power/weight ratio as old tech 2 strokes. Just need someone to make them
available at an affordable priceolb-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhttp://www.matronics.com==================
|
--
Believe those who are seeking the truth, doubt those who find it.
-Andre Gide
|
[b]
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:11 am Post subject: Bourke engine |
|
|
His issues are just like the issues that anyone doing a 'one-off' design is going to encounter. *All* alternative engine installations are by nature, one-offs, and almost always done by those (including me) who don't have the training and experience to get it right the first time. Starting with a turbo (an entire development process on its own) on an alternative engine as a 1st iteration is begging for failure at best, with disaster likely. And it's not just alternative engines that face the problem; pilots are just very good at ignoring the ongoing issues with 'conventional' power plants. There's the recent thread on this list about excessive wear on a Rotax oil control lever. Lycs have been installed in a/c since the beginning of time, and they *still* have issues with cracking cooling baffles, exhaust systems, carb air cleaner adapter plates, oil cooler mounts, engine mounts, *CRANKSHAFTS*, etc etc etc. I know, because I've flown them for over 20 years. But that stuff is 'normal maintenance' to a Lyc driver.
13B's are really are loud like a 2 stroke, because of the way the exhaust port snaps open (just like a piston-ported 2 stroke). The newer Renesis is much quieter due to the re-designed exhaust port. I've got friends from TX and KY, both flying Renesis engines on RV-7A's, and they almost sound like turbines. They are quieter than Lycs, with prop noise is louder than the engine.
Sorry for the double detour from regularly scheduled Kolb programming.
Charlie
On 1/27/2015 10:43 AM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
[quote] Scott Trask a long time Kolb MKIIIC owner built a RV7A with a Wankel engine in it. He flew it a few years but changed to a conventional engine. The Wankel engine builder sent him a engine a year late that didn't run right. Seems like it had a turbo that didn't work right also. He had the new engine rebuilt without the turbo and flew it. Seemed like he was continually fixing broken wires, cracking brackets and such related to a very high frequency vibration. The plane sounded like it had a screaming (much louder than normal) two stroke in it. Later with the new engine he flew it down for a winter visit from the UP of Michigan to Venice Florida in 7 hours.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 6:47 AM, Patrick Ladd <patrickjladd(at)hotmail.com (patrickjladd(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | <<Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?>>
I had a car with a Wankel engine. A beautiful car with the super smooth non vibrating engine.It would run happily on very low grade petrol but only gave about 25miles to the gallon. Acceleration was nothing to write home about but the non reciprocating design made for super smooth running. As you say the wearing of the ceramic tips of the three point rotor was its downfall. Great pity. I remember that it had a manual gear shift but no clutch pedal. The clutch was operated electrically when you held the knob on the top of the gear stick. So the act of changing gear automatically operated the clutch. It had a device which matched the engine speed to the wheel speed when you changed gear.
There were several Wankel aero engines being played with a few years ago but they seem to have fallen by the wayside. Pity, it had such promise.
Pat
From: Richard Girard (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:05 PM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Bourke engine
Bourke built many examples of his engine for trucks, outboard motors, and aircraft. They all worked, ran for hundreds of hours with little wear to any parts, and produced the advertised horsepower. One of the aircraft engines is in the EAA museum. Like any engine the start up costs going into production would be astronomical and for an aircraft engine then there are certification costs. All for a small diminishing market. Sad to say it won't happen, but that's the way it is.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 1:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Remember back in the 50s or 60s when the Wenkel Rotary engine was introduced? One triangular piston with rotary rather than reciprocating motion and very few moving parts?
Good idea and it could spin very high revs. Problem is, they can't keep the tips from wearing on the triangular piston, so very limited application in the real world.
Also remember a ceramic engine on the drawing boards which was to rival sliced bread for greatness. Haven't heard any more about that one. That's OK. Just keep inventing, many out there ideas have been successful.
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
Do not archive
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Charlie England
Date:01/25/2015 1:48 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)>
On 1/25/2015 11:18 AM, william sullivan wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net (williamtsullivan(at)att.net)>
>
> Click on various stuff in this link. My brother sent it to me, thinking I'd be interested. With Rotax dropping the small 2-strokes, there is a need for replacements. The weight to HP ratio looks pretty good. Does anyone have any experience/comments on this one?
>
> http://www.bourke-engine.com/ani
>
>
I'd suggest finding an independent engineering evaluation. My thoughts:
Consider how severe the imbalance will be with both pistons moving the
same direction, then how much the counterweight will weigh to counteract
that force (without contributing any power). Then consider how long a
sliding line-contact sliding bearing is going to last when subjected to
those forces. The claim is 1/4 pound (0.25 lb) per hp/hr. This is better
by about 30% than the most efficient internal combustion engine ever
built, and it's still a 2 stroke engine. Isn't it a bit strange that a
design that's been around long enough for the patents to expire, and is
super clean, and beats the best tech out there by 30%, hasn't taken over
every engine market on the planet? And it uses 'detonation' to extract
more energy from the fuel? What happens to a piston when you have
detonation in the combustion chamber? (Answer help: nothing good.)
Current technology in 4 strokes can come pretty close to the same
power/weight ratio as old tech 2 strokes. Just need someone to make them
available at an affordable priceolb-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhttp://www.matronics.com==================
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russk50(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:47 am Post subject: Bourke engine |
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Undoctor — you should know that your posts come thru as gibberish. At least on a Mac. | Quote: | On Jan 27, 2015, at 12:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
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undoctor
Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 212
Location: Bethelhem, PA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:10 am Post subject: Bourke engine |
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Huh, never heard that before. Anyone else having a problem?
Russ, what kind of gibberish?
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: kinne russ
Date:01/28/2015 11:46 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
Undoctor — you should know that your posts come thru as gibberish. At least on a Mac. | Quote: | On Jan 27, 2015, at 12:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
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rlaird
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:19 am Post subject: Bourke engine |
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|
He's sending out Android multipart messages... Most email systems decode it just fine. Here's the header:
| Quote: | ----_com.android.email_362066747291730
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 |
I'll bet if you viewed his messages on a different email program, it would look fine (like it does for most of us).
-- Robert
On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 11:10 AM, undoctor <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
[quote]Huh, never heard that before. Anyone else having a problem?
Russ, what kind of gibberish?
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: kinne russ
Date:01/28/2015 11:46 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Bourke engine
Undoctor — you should know that your posts come thru as gibberish. At least on a Mac.
| Quote: | On Jan 27, 2015, at 12:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:34 am Post subject: Bourke engine |
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Russ' copied text is gibberish, but Undoctor's looks fine on a Win7 PC. Another attempt by Apple to drive everyone into the hive?
n 1/28/2015 11:10 AM, undoctor wrote:
[quote] Huh, never heard that before. Anyone else having a problem?
Russ, what kind of gibberish?
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: kinne russ
Date:01/28/2015 11:46 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Bourke engine
Undoctor — you should know that your posts come thru as gibberish. At least on a Mac. | Quote: | On Jan 27, 2015, at 12:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
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stuart(at)harnerfarm.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:04 pm Post subject: Bourke engine |
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I am running Outlook 2010 on a Windows machine and undoctor’s messages are always blank for me.
However, if I log onto the Matronics web site and view them in the forum, they are fine. Also, if someone does a reply and leaves undoctor’s comments in the reply, I USUALLY (but not always) see the text of the original message.
Very strange, I have always been curious as to what causes this.
Stuart
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of kinne russ
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 10:47 AM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Bourke engine
Undoctor — you should know that your posts come thru as gibberish. At least on a Mac.
On Jan 27, 2015, at 12:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
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rlaird
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:43 pm Post subject: Bourke engine |
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I could explain it, but you'd fall asleep before you finished reading!
Anyway, it's not Kolb-related.
-- Robert
P.S. Email directly if you _really_ want to know!
Do Not Archive
On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 6:03 PM, Stuart Harner <stuart(at)harnerfarm.net (stuart(at)harnerfarm.net)> wrote:
[quote]
I am running Outlook 2010 on a Windows machine and undoctor’s messages are always blank for me.
However, if I log onto the Matronics web site and view them in the forum, they are fine. Also, if someone does a reply and leaves undoctor’s comments in the reply, I USUALLY (but not always) see the text of the original message.
Very strange, I have always been curious as to what causes this.
Stuart
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of kinne russ
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 10:47 AM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Bourke engine
Undoctor — you should know that your posts come thru as gibberish. At least on a Mac.
On Jan 27, 2015, at 12:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
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Robert Laird
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current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:30 pm Post subject: Bourke engine |
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When in doubt, blame Outlook.
Seriously, check on whether Outlook is set to display only plain text, or some similar setting.
Charlie
Win7 using Thunderbird email client
On 1/28/2015 6:03 PM, Stuart Harner wrote:
[quote] <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
I am running Outlook 2010 on a Windows machine and undoctor’s messages are always blank for me.
However, if I log onto the Matronics web site and view them in the forum, they are fine. Also, if someone does a reply and leaves undoctor’s comments in the reply, I USUALLY (but not always) see the text of the original message.
Very strange, I have always been curious as to what causes this.
Stuart
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of kinne russ
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 10:47 AM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Bourke engine
Undoctor — you should know that your posts come thru as gibberish. At least on a Mac.
On Jan 27, 2015, at 12:09 PM, undoctor <undoctor(at)ptd.net (undoctor(at)ptd.net)> wrote:
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