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dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 4:19 pm Post subject: Main Air Tanks

All,Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to replace the current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find.Â  The new SS tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and be certified at 900 to 1000 psi.Â  These new stainless steel tanks while fairly expensive should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you should ever have to purchase.Â  Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock standard steel tank which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about $450.00.Â  The new SS tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about $700.00 each.Â  In order to price them at this price I would have to order them in 20 at a time and commit to a total of 60 tanks.Â  Due to the rather large initial investment I am looking for a show of hands of who would be interested if I did stocked them.

Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52 also.

Looking forward to your comments.

Best from Omak,

Doug and Kathleen



  [quote][b]

McFly

Joined: 21 May 2012
Posts: 101
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:02 pm Post subject: Main Air Tanks

I would be interested in an alternative for the Yak 50 as well (main and emergency bottles).



Todd McCutchanT-34A & Yak-50

Cell: (260) 402-1740

E-mail: todd(at)fastaircraft.com (todd(at)fastaircraft.com)

www.fastaircraft.com

On Mar 2, 2015, at 5:18 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]All,Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to replace the current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find.  The new SS tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and be certified at 900 to 1000 psi.  These new stainless steel tanks while fairly expensive should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you should ever have to purchase.  Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock standard steel tank which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about $450.00.  The new SS tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about $700.00 each.  In order to price them at this price I would have to order them in 20 at a time and commit to a total of 60 tanks.  Due to the rather large initial investment I am looking for a show of hands of who would be interested if I did stocked them.

Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52 also.

Looking forward to your comments.

Best from Omak,

Doug and Kathleen



   	  Quote: 	
		  



D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

//forums.matronics.com

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ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



	


[b]

_________________
Todd McCutchan
Fast Aircraft
T-34A - N134FA
KDVT Hangar 33-13

Cell - 260.402.1740

Email: todd@fastaircraft.com
Skype: tmccutchan
Web: www.fastaircraft.com & www.flyams.com

Viperdoc

Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:07 pm Post subject: Main Air Tanks

Doug,

I'm interested.

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Mar 2, 2015, at 6:18 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]All,Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to replace the current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find.  The new SS tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and be certified at 900 to 1000 psi.  These new stainless steel tanks while fairly expensive should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you should ever have to purchase.  Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock standard steel tank which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about $450.00.  The new SS tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about $700.00 each.  In order to price them at this price I would have to order them in 20 at a time and commit to a total of 60 tanks.  Due to the rather large initial investment I am looking for a show of hands of who would be interested if I did stocked them.

Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52 also.

Looking forward to your comments.

Best from Omak,

Doug and Kathleen



   	  Quote: 	
		  



D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

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[b]

_________________
Viperdoc

migfighter42(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:20 pm Post subject: Main Air Tanks

Doug,

I would be interested in a set for the Yak 52.

Bill Culberson

Red Star Aero Services

-------- Original message --------

From: doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com> 

Date:03/02/2015  6:18 PM  (GMT-06:00) 

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com 

Cc:  

Subject: Yak-List: Main Air Tanks 

All,Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to replace the current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find.  The new SS tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and be certified at 900 to 1000 psi.  These new stainless steel tanks while fairly expensive should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you should ever have to purchase.  Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock standard steel tank which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about $450.00.  The new SS tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about $700.00 each.  In order to price them at this price I would have to order them in 20 at a time and commit to a total of 60 tanks.  Due to the rather large initial investment I am looking for a show of hands of who would be interested if I did stocked them.

Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52 also.

Looking forward to your comments.

Best from Omak,

Doug and Kathleen



  [quote][b]

Ernie

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:24 pm Post subject: Main Air Tanks

Doug,



Why not just manufacture an adapter to connect to scuba bottles? Not to mention you could get aluminum scuba tanks that weigh a lot less.

Ernie

On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 8:05 PM, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc(at)me.com (f16viperdoc(at)me.com)> wrote:

[quote]Doug,

I'm interested.

Doc



Sent from my iPad



On Mar 2, 2015, at 6:18 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  All,Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to replace the current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find.Â  The new SS tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and be certified at 900 to 1000 psi.Â  These new stainless steel tanks while fairly expensive should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you should ever have to purchase.Â  Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock standard steel tank which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about $450.00.Â  The new SS tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about $700.00 each.Â  In order to price them at this price I would have to order them in 20 at a time and commit to a total of 60 tanks.Â  Due to the rather large initial investment I am looking for a show of hands of who would be interested if I did stocked them.

Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52 also.

Looking forward to your comments.

Best from Omak,

Doug and Kathleen



   	  Quote: 	
		  



D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

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ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



	






et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


[b]

dantpayne(at)icloud.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:26 pm Post subject: Main Air Tanks

Interested



Keep 'em Flyin',

Dan Payne

Owner, Pilot, A&P-IA

(423)-544-8946

Eagle Works Aviation

Dallas Bay Skypark

1824 E Crabtree Road

Hixson, TN 37343

"Where Airworthiness Means Business!"



On Mar 2, 2015, at 7:18 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]All,Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to replace the current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find.  The new SS tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and be certified at 900 to 1000 psi.  These new stainless steel tanks while fairly expensive should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you should ever have to purchase.  Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock standard steel tank which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about $450.00.  The new SS tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about $700.00 each.  In order to price them at this price I would have to order them in 20 at a time and commit to a total of 60 tanks.  Due to the rather large initial investment I am looking for a show of hands of who would be interested if I did stocked them.

Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52 also.

Looking forward to your comments.

Best from Omak,

Doug and Kathleen



   	  Quote: 	
		  



D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ist"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

//forums.matronics.com

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



	


[b]

pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:35 pm Post subject: Main Air Tanks

The Aluminum Scuba Tanks have the same problem as the steel  tanks, corrosion.  It would take longer but would happen - look at the  aluminum air filter case.

  

 Frank

   [quote][b]

wdjester(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:38 pm Post subject: Main Air Tanks

I am in for a 52 Tank.



Sent from my iPad



[quote] On Mar 2, 2015, at 6:41 PM, Todd McCutchan <todd(at)fastaircraft.com> wrote:

 

 I would be interested in an alternative for the Yak 50 as well (main and emergency bottles).

 

 Todd McCutchan

 T-34A & Yak-50

 Cell: (260) 402-1740

 E-mail: todd(at)fastaircraft.com

 www.fastaircraft.com

 

 

 

> On Mar 2, 2015, at 5:18 PM, doug sapp <dougsappllc(at)gmail.com> wrote:

> 

> All,

> Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to replace the current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find.  The new SS tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and be certified at 900 to 1000 psi.  These new stainless steel tanks while fairly expensive should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you should ever have to purchase.  Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock standard steel tank which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about $450.00.  The new SS tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about $700.00 each.  In order to price them at this price I would have to order them in 20 at a time and commit to a total of 60 tanks.  Due to the rather large initial investment I am looking for a show of hands of who would be interested if I did stocked them.

> 

> Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52 also

Ernie

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:43 pm Post subject: Main Air Tanks

Aluminum scuba tanks are designed to be used in salt water, can be hydro tested at any scuba shop, can be replaced for $200, are rated for 4000 PSI, so it would be a looooooooong time before a tank corroded to the point where it couldn't be used to contain 750 PSI.



I understand the allure of a direct replacement so you don't need to worry about mounting. I'm assuming Doug is talking about these new tanks with the same form factor as stock.

Is that correct Doug??

Ernie



On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 8:34 PM, Frank Stelwagon <pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.net (pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:

[quote]       The Aluminum Scuba Tanks have the same problem as the steel  tanks, corrosion.Â  It would take longer but would happen - look at the  aluminum air filter case.

 Â 

 Frank

    	  Quote: 	
		  



et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


[b]

dabear

Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 92
Location: Warrenton, VA

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:29 pm Post subject: Main Air Tanks

I have to agree with the Scuba idea.Â  Donâ€™t manufacture a new tank, change the hold down and connector and use off the shelf technology cheaper.Â  It would work for the main and emergency.Â  Â If you used scuba tanks youâ€™d only have to change how they were mounted and the connection to the system.

 

 

Bear

 

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez

Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 8:43 PM

To: yak-list

Subject: Re: Main Air Tanks

 

Aluminum scuba tanks are designed to be used in salt water, can be hydro tested at any scuba shop, can be replaced for $200, are rated for 4000 PSI, so it would be a looooooooong time before a tank corroded to the point where it couldn't be used to contain 750 PSI.

 



I understand the allure of a direct replacement so you don't need to worry about mounting. I'm assuming Doug is talking about these new tanks with the same form factor as stock.



 



Is that correct Doug??



 



Ernie



 

On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 8:34 PM, Frank Stelwagon <pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.net (pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.net)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  

The Aluminum Scuba Tanks have the same problem as the steel tanks, corrosion.  It would take longer but would happen - look at the aluminum air filter case.



 



Frank

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  [quote][b]

wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:03 pm Post subject: Main Air Tanks

I installed new tanks at restoration of my CJ and charged the emergency  tank with nitrogen.   Also do a top up after annual annual emergency  gear swing.  Hopefully this tank should remain free of corrosion.

  

 Walt

    

  From: doug sapp (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com) 

 Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 4:18 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Main Air Tanks

  



  All,  Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am  considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to replace the  current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find.  The new SS  tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and be certified at  900 to 1000 psi.  These new stainless steel tanks while fairly expensive  should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you should ever have to  purchase.  Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock standard steel tank  which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about $450.00.  The new SS  tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about $700.00 each.  In order  to price them at this price I would have to order them in 20 at a time and  commit to a total of 60 tanks.  Due to the rather large initial investment  I am looking for a show of hands of who would be interested if I did stocked  them.

  

 Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency  tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52  also.

  

 Looking forward to your comments.

  

 Best from Omak,

 Doug and Kathleen



[quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

pa3arw(at)ziggo.nl
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:14 am Post subject: Main Air Tanks

Doug,

 

 If it is a “drop in replacement” I will certainly be interested in one for my YAK52.

 

 Hans Oortman

 PH-YAK

 

 

 Op 03-03-15 01:18, doug sapp <[url=dougsappllc(at)gmail.com]dougsappllc(at)gmail.com[/url]> schreef:

 

 [quote]All,

 Due to rapidly escalating prices for main air tanks out of China I am considering taking on a project to produce a stainless steel tank to replace the current std steel tanks which are getting rather hard to find.  The new SS tanks will be built by a licensed tank manufacturing company and be certified at 900 to 1000 psi.  These new stainless steel tanks while fairly expensive should be in fact a "lifetime tank", the last one you should ever have to purchase.  Right now cost for a new, albeit old stock standard steel tank which was manufactured in the 80's or 90's is about $450.00.  The new SS tanks would be of current mfg and would cost about $700.00 each.  In order to price them at this price I would have to order them in 20 at a time and commit to a total of 60 tanks.  Due to the rather large initial investment I am looking for a show of hands of who would be interested if I did stocked them.

 

 Should enough folks step forward we will also be stocking the CJ emergency tank and if demand is there we will look into SS tanks for the Yak 52 also.

 

 Looking forward to your comments.

 

 Best from Omak,

 Doug and Kathleen

 

 

 ail Forum -

 ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

 ;  - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 matronics.com

 ;- List Contribution Web Site -

 ;                 -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 ://www.matronics.com/contribution

 

 

 [b]

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:22 am Post subject: Main Air Tanks

FWIW, there are a few things I believe should be considered if one were 

to simply change the hold down and connector and use off the shelf 

technology.  First, it may not be cheaper in a long run when you factor 

in the cost of fabricating a new hold down; de-riveting the original 

hold downs, re-riveting the removed rivets, and finally drilling and 

riveting in the new hold downs.  Second, the placement of the Scuba tank 

most likely will have an affect on weight and balance thus requiring a 

either an aircraft re-weighing or at a minimum, calculation of the new 

weight, balance and CG of the airplane.  Third, the weight of the Scuba 

tank must be taken into account for structural considerations when 

designing the hold down and the placement of the tank.



Finally, if one were to comply with the aircraft's Ops Limits, I believe 

it does say any major modifications require approval of the FSDO.  Now 

you've got the FAA involved.  You may not consider it a major 

modification, but don't discount the insurance issue, should an accident 

or incident occur.  From FAA Order 8130.2G under the section covering 

Experimental Exhibition:



The cognizant FSDO must be notified, and its response received in 

writing, prior

to flying this aircraft after incorporation of a major change as defined 

by 14 CFR Â§ 21.93 in

order to determine whether new operating limitations will be required. 

The FSDO response

should be entered in the aircraft's records and a copy sent the FAA 

Aircraft Registration Branch,

AFS-750, P.O. Box 25504, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73125 for recording in 

the aircraftâ€™s

permanent records.



FAR 21.93 defines a major change as:



Â§ 21.93 Classification of changes in type design.

(a) In addition to changes in type design specified in paragraph (b) of 

this section, changes in type design are

classified as minor and major. Aâ€˜â€˜minor changeâ€™â€™ is one that has no 

appreciable effect on the weight, balance,

structural strength, reliability, operational characteristics, or other 

characteristics affecting the airworthiness

of the product. _All other changes are â€˜â€˜major changesâ€™â€™_.



Given these facts and assuming one does not disregard the documents 

governing the issuance of the Special Airworthiness Certificate and 

Operating Limitations of the airplane, Doug's form, fit and function 

replacement tanks are THE best solution, by far, IMHO.



A. Dennis Savarese

334-546-8182 (mobile)

www.yak-52.com

Skype - Yakguy1



On 3/2/2015 9:28 PM, DaBear wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 I have to agree with the Scuba idea.  Donâ€™t manufacture a new tank, 

 change the hold down and connector and use off the shelf technology 

 cheaper.  It would work for the main and emergency.   If you used 

 scuba tanks youâ€™d only have to change how they were mounted and the 

 connection to the system.



 Bear



 *From:*owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com 

 [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Ernest 

 Martinez

 *Sent:* Monday, March 02, 2015 8:43 PM

 *To:* yak-list

 *Subject:* Re: Main Air Tanks



 Aluminum scuba tanks are designed to be used in salt water, can be 

 hydro tested at any scuba shop, can be replaced for $200, are rated 

 for 4000 PSI, so it would be a looooooooong time before a tank 

 corroded to the point where it couldn't be used to contain 750 PSI.



 I understand the allure of a direct replacement so you don't need to 

 worry about mounting. I'm assuming Doug is talking about these new 

 tanks with the same form factor as stock.



 Is that correct Doug??



 Ernie



 On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 8:34 PM, Frank Stelwagon 

 <pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.net <mailto:pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.net>> wrote:



     The Aluminum Scuba Tanks have the same problem as the steel tanks,

     corrosion.  It would take longer but would happen - look at the

     aluminum air filter case.



     Frank



     *  *



     *  *



     *et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List*



     *tp://forums.matronics.com*



     *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution*



     *  *



 *  *

 *  *

 **

 **

 **

 **

 **

 *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List*

 **

 **

 *http://forums.matronics.com*

 **

 **

 **

 **

 *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*

 **

 *  *

 *

 *

jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:38 am Post subject: Main Air Tanks

Hi Dennis,



Your remarks also apply for European EASA country.

I doubt that the CAA authorities of the European countries where Yak's are

flying under Annexe II law, would accept scuba bottles as a replacement.

A newly-made, high-quality air bottle with the same dimensions would be

much easier to get approved.

And even then, quite some arguing will be necessary.



Jan



On 03/03/15 14:21, "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>

wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

<dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>



FWIW, there are a few things I believe should be considered if one were

to simply change the hold down and connector and use off the shelf

technology.  First, it may not be cheaper in a long run when you factor

in the cost of fabricating a new hold down; de-riveting the original

hold downs, re-riveting the removed rivets, and finally drilling and

riveting in the new hold downs.  Second, the placement of the Scuba tank

most likely will have an affect on weight and balance thus requiring a

either an aircraft re-weighing or at a minimum, calculation of the new

weight, balance and CG of the airplane.  Third, the weight of the Scuba

tank must be taken into account for structural considerations when

designing the hold down and the placement of the tank.



Finally, if one were to comply with the aircraft's Ops Limits, I believe

it does say any major modifications require approval of the FSDO.  Now

you've got the FAA involved.  You may not consider it a major

modification, but don't discount the insurance issue, should an accident

or incident occur.  From FAA Order 8130.2G under the section covering

Experimental Exhibition:



The cognizant FSDO must be notified, and its response received in

writing, prior

to flying this aircraft after incorporation of a major change as defined

by 14 CFR § 21.93 in

order to determine whether new operating limitations will be required.

The FSDO response

should be entered in the aircraft's records and a copy sent the FAA

Aircraft Registration Branch,

AFS-750, P.O. Box 25504, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73125 for recording in

the aircraft¹s

permanent records.



FAR 21.93 defines a major change as:



§ 21.93 Classification of changes in type design.

(a) In addition to changes in type design specified in paragraph (b) of

this section, changes in type design are

classified as minor and major. AŒŒminor change¹¹ is one that has no

appreciable effect on the weight, balance,

structural strength, reliability, operational characteristics, or other

characteristics affecting the airworthiness

of the product. _All other changes are ŒŒmajor changes¹¹_.



Given these facts and assuming one does not disregard the documents

governing the issuance of the Special Airworthiness Certificate and

Operating Limitations of the airplane, Doug's form, fit and function

replacement tanks are THE best solution, by far, IMHO.



A. Dennis Savarese

334-546-8182 (mobile)

www.yak-52.com

Skype - Yakguy1



On 3/2/2015 9:28 PM, DaBear wrote:

>

> I have to agree with the Scuba idea.  Don¹t manufacture a new tank,

> change the hold down and connector and use off the shelf technology

> cheaper.  It would work for the main and emergency.   If you used

> scuba tanks you¹d only have to change how they were mounted and the

> connection to the system.

>

> Bear

>

> *From:*owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com

> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Ernest

> Martinez

> *Sent:* Monday, March 02, 2015 8:43 PM

> *To:* yak-list

> *Subject:* Re: Main Air Tanks

>

> Aluminum scuba tanks are designed to be used in salt water, can be

> hydro tested at any scuba shop, can be replaced for $200, are rated

> for 4000 PSI, so it would be a looooooooong time before a tank

> corroded to the point where it couldn't be used to contain 750 PSI.

>

> I understand the allure of a direct replacement so you don't need to

> worry about mounting. I'm assuming Doug is talking about these new

> tanks with the same form factor as stock.

>

> Is that correct Doug??

>

> Ernie

>

> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 8:34 PM, Frank Stelwagon

> <pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.net <mailto:pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.net>> wrote:

>

>     The Aluminum Scuba Tanks have the same problem as the steel tanks,

>     corrosion.  It would take longer but would happen - look at the

>     aluminum air filter case.

>

>     Frank

>

>     *  *

>

>     *  *

>

>     *et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List*

>

>     *tp://forums.matronics.com*

>

>     *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution*

>

>     *  *

>

> *  *

> *  *

> **

> **

> **

> **

> **

> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List*

> **

> **

> *http://forums.matronics.com*

> **

> **

> **

> **

> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*

> **

> *  *

> *

> *

Ernie

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:56 am Post subject: Main Air Tanks

All good points Dennis. ThoughÂ Â I wonder how many folks have contacted their FSDO after adding long range tanks, doing M-14 conversions, installing electronic ignitions and auto plug conversions.



I did a little searching last night, and better than scuba tanks are composite SCBA tanks used for emergency breathing apparatus. Very light weight, not prone to corrosion, and very similar in size to the original main tank, so the original mounts might be useable. The emergency bottle is still a bit of a challenge. But considering how many of our planes have modified battery boxes, a tank mount for a 10 pound bottle doesn't seem so daunting.

Granted, stainless OEM replacement tanks are the best option, albeit expensive. My onlyÂ concern with them is that not being DOT approved, it will be as difficult to find someone to hydro check them, as the original tanks.

Ernie



On Tuesday, March 3, 2015, Jan Mevis <jan.mevis(at)informavia.be (jan.mevis(at)informavia.be)> wrote:

[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: Jan Mevis <[url=javascript:;]jan.mevis(at)informavia.be[/url]>

 

 Hi Dennis,

 

 Your remarks also apply for European EASA country.

 I doubt that the CAA authorities of the European countries where Yak's are

 flying under Annexe II law, would accept scuba bottles as a replacement.

 A newly-made, high-quality air bottle with the same dimensions would be

 much easier to get approved.

 And even then, quite some arguing will be necessary.

 

 Jan

 

 

 

 On 03/03/15 14:21, "A. Dennis Savarese" <[url=javascript:;]dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net[/url]>

 wrote:

 

 >--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese"

 ><[url=javascript:;]dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net[/url]>

 >

 >FWIW, there are a few things I believe should be considered if one were

 >to simply change the hold down and connector and use off the shelf

 >technology.Â  First, it may not be cheaper in a long run when you factor

 >in the cost of fabricating a new hold down; de-riveting the original

 >hold downs, re-riveting the removed rivets, and finally drilling and

 >riveting in the new hold downs.Â  Second, the placement of the Scuba tank

 >most likely will have an affect on weight and balance thus requiring a

 >either an aircraft re-weighing or at a minimum, calculation of the new

 >weight, balance and CG of the airplane.Â  Third, the weight of the Scuba

 >tank must be taken into account for structural considerations when

 >designing the hold down and the placement of the tank.

 >

 >Finally, if one were to comply with the aircraft's Ops Limits, I believe

 >it does say any major modifications require approval of the FSDO.Â  Now

 >you've got the FAA involved.Â  You may not consider it a major

 >modification, but don't discount the insurance issue, should an accident

 >or incident occur.Â  From FAA Order 8130.2G under the section covering

 >Experimental Exhibition:

 >

 >The cognizant FSDO must be notified, and its response received in

 >writing, prior

 >to flying this aircraft after incorporation of a major change as defined

 >by 14 CFR Â§ 21.93 in

 >order to determine whether new operating limitations will be required.

 >The FSDO response

 >should be entered in the aircraft's records and a copy sent the FAA

 >Aircraft Registration Branch,

 >AFS-750, P.O. Box 25504, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73125 for recording in

 >the aircraftÄ…s

 >permanent records.

 >

 >FAR 21.93 defines a major change as:

 >

 >Â§ 21.93 Classification of changes in type design.

 >(a) In addition to changes in type design specified in paragraph (b) of

 >this section, changes in type design are

 >classified as minor and major. AÅšÅšminor changeÄ…Ä… is one that has no

 >appreciable effect on the weight, balance,

 >structural strength, reliability, operational characteristics, or other

 >characteristics affecting the airworthiness

 >of the product. _All other changes are ÅšÅšmajor changesÄ…Ä…_.

 >

 >Given these facts and assuming one does not disregard the documents

 >governing the issuance of the Special Airworthiness Certificate and

 >Operating Limitations of the airplane, Doug's form, fit and function

 >replacement tanks are THE best solution, by far, IMHO.

 >

 >A. Dennis Savarese

 >334-546-8182 (mobile)

 >www.yak-52.com

 >Skype - Yakguy1

 >

 >On 3/2/2015 9:28 PM, DaBear wrote:

 >>

 >> I have to agree with the Scuba idea.Â  DonÄ…t manufacture a new tank,

 >> change the hold down and connector and use off the shelf technology

 >> cheaper.Â  It would work for the main and emergency.Â  Â If you used

 >> scuba tanks youÄ…d only have to change how they were mounted and the

 >> connection to the system.

 >>

 >> Bear

 >>

 >> *From:*[url=javascript:;]owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com[/url]

 >> [mailto:[url=javascript:;]owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com[/url]] *On Behalf Of *Ernest

 >> Martinez

 >> *Sent:* Monday, March 02, 2015 8:43 PM

 >> *To:* yak-list

 >> *Subject:* Re: Main Air Tanks

 >>

 >> Aluminum scuba tanks are designed to be used in salt water, can be

 >> hydro tested at any scuba shop, can be replaced for $200, are rated

 >> for 4000 PSI, so it would be a looooooooong time before a tank

 >> corroded to the point where it couldn't be used to contain 750 PSI.

 >>

 >> I understand the allure of a direct replacement so you don't need to

 >> worry about mounting. I'm assuming Doug is talking about these new

 >> tanks with the same form factor as stock.

 >>

 >> Is that correct Doug??

 >>

 >> Ernie

 >>

 >> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 8:34 PM, Frank Stelwagon

 >> <[url=javascript:;]pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.net[/url] <mailto:[url=javascript:;]pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.net[/url]>> wrote:

 >>

 >>Â  Â  Â The Aluminum Scuba Tanks have the same problem as the steel tanks,

 >>Â  Â  Â corrosion.Â  It would take longer but would happen - look at the

 >>Â  Â  Â aluminum air filter case.

 >>

 >>Â  Â  Â Frank

 >>

 >>Â  Â  Â *Â  *

 >>

 >>Â  Â  Â *Â  *

 >>

 >>Â  Â  Â *et="_blank">[url=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List*]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List*[/url]

 >>

 >>Â  Â  Â *tp://forums.matronics.com*

 >>

 >>Â  Â  Â *_blank">[url=http://www.matronics.com/contribution*]http://www.matronics.com/contribution*[/url]

 >>

 >>Â  Â  Â *Â  *

 >>

 >> *Â  *

 >> *Â  *

 >> **

 >> **

 >> **

 >> **

 >> **

 >> *[url=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List*]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List*[/url]

 >> **

 >> **

 >> *http://forums.matronics.com*

 >> **

 >> **

 >> **

 >> **

 >> *[url=http://www.matronics.com/contribution*]http://www.matronics.com/contribution*[/url]

 >> **

 >> *Â  *

 >> *

 >>

 >>

 >> *

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

 ===========

  FORUMS -

 _blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 b Site -

 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

dabear

Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 92
Location: Warrenton, VA

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:45 am Post subject: Main Air Tanks

First, let me say I support Doug, always have, always will.  He has supported this community for decades.



Agreed, there are a few things that need to be considered to change to SCUBA. However, let's start with the cost of new bottles.  If I have to replace the main, I'm close to needing to replace the emergency, thatâ€™s $700 each or $1400.



Now, let's consider that Doug designs and builds a replacement hold down for 2 scuba bottles and the air connections.  Worst case it's probably around $200 (for 60 sets - let's play apples to apples).  Then we add it up...

$200 --- Hold down and connection 

$320 ---- 4 hours for removal and install  

$400 ---- 2 SCUBA bottles

$  80 --- 1 hour for new W&B



As to the paperwork in the US.  I could argue that there is no appreciable effect on W&B, etc. however, let's say there is and you have to/want to submit the paperwork,   No different than the paperwork for the upgraded engine, fuel tanks, smoke system, etc.

Come on, better tanks, MUCH higher safety margin since the tanks support 3k air pressure.  You can go with aluminum tanks which would weigh about the same.  So the big concern is attachment and structural support.  Please remember what used to be there in the form of radio, etc.



Or $1,000 for a system that is better than before, easier to maintain, and now cheaper and easier to test and replace.  Remember, you take the tank to the local dive shop for annual testing if you want and find a problem go get a new tank for less than HALF of the cost of an old CJ/Yak tank.



Come on, we've modified these planes from one end to the other.  M14P/PF, new exhaust, oil shut off, larger aluminum water trap, pre-oiler, fuel tanks, smoke systems, etc. and on and on.  We've done that to improve performance, improve safety, and make it easier and safer to maintain.  

Replacing a tank with a more expensive tank with no other improvements....at least really, seriously, think about an improvement



No offense was intended in the above post, please don't take any.  They are your airplanes.  Make your own decision.



Thanks,



Bear

--

dabear

Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 92
Location: Warrenton, VA

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:45 am Post subject: Main Air Tanks

Last point, just did some QUICK searching.Â  Aluminum bottles are going to cost less than $150 each andÂ  weigh less than 25lbs empty, some as low as 15lbs.Â  Go fiber and it will cost a little more and weigh even less.Â Â  So the W&B changes are extremely small.

Fly safe and Have funâ€¦.

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Martinez

Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 8:55 AM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Main Air Tanks

All good points Dennis. Though  I wonder how many folks have contacted their FSDO after adding long range tanks, doing M-14 conversions, installing electronic ignitions and auto plug conversions.

I did a little searching last night, and better than scuba tanks are composite SCBA tanks used for emergency breathing apparatus. Very light weight, not prone to corrosion, and very similar in size to the original main tank, so the original mounts might be useable. The emergency bottle is still a bit of a challenge. But considering how many of our planes have modified battery boxes, a tank mount for a 10 pound bottle doesn't seem so daunting.

Granted, stainless OEM replacement tanks are the best option, albeit expensive. My only concern with them is that not being DOT approved, it will be as difficult to find someone to hydro check them, as the original tanks.

Ernie

On Tuesday, March 3, 2015, Jan Mevis <jan.mevis(at)informavia.be (jan.mevis(at)informavia.be)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	

--> Yak-List message posted by: Jan Mevis <[url=javascript:;]jan.mevis(at)informavia.be[/url]>

Hi Dennis,

Your remarks also apply for European EASA country.

I doubt that the CAA authorities of the European countries where Yak's are

flying under Annexe II law, would accept scuba bottles as a replacement.

A newly-made, high-quality air bottle with the same dimensions would be

much easier to get approved.

And even then, quite some arguing will be necessary.

Jan

On 03/03/15 14:21, "A. Dennis Savarese" <[url=javascript:;]dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net[/url]>

wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese"

<[url=javascript:;]dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net[/url]>

FWIW, there are a few things I believe should be considered if one were

to simply change the hold down and connector and use off the shelf

technology.  First, it may not be cheaper in a long run when you factor

in the cost of fabricating a new hold down; de-riveting the original

hold downs, re-riveting the removed rivets, and finally drilling and

riveting in the new hold downs.  Second, the placement of the Scuba tank

most likely will have an affect on weight and balance thus requiring a

either an aircraft re-weighing or at a minimum, calculation of the new

weight, balance and CG of the airplane.  Third, the weight of the Scuba

tank must be taken into account for structural considerations when

designing the hold down and the placement of the tank.

Finally, if one were to comply with the aircraft's Ops Limits, I believe

it does say any major modifications require approval of the FSDO.  Now

you've got the FAA involved.  You may not consider it a major

modification, but don't discount the insurance issue, should an accident

or incident occur.  From FAA Order 8130.2G under the section covering

Experimental Exhibition:

The cognizant FSDO must be notified, and its response received in

writing, prior

to flying this aircraft after incorporation of a major change as defined

by 14 CFR Â§ 21.93 in

order to determine whether new operating limitations will be required.

The FSDO response

should be entered in the aircraft's records and a copy sent the FAA

Aircraft Registration Branch,

AFS-750, P.O. Box 25504, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73125 for recording in

the aircraftÄ…s

permanent records.

FAR 21.93 defines a major change as:

Â§ 21.93 Classification of changes in type design.

(a) In addition to changes in type design specified in paragraph (b) of

this section, changes in type design are

classified as minor and major. AÅšÅšminor changeÄ…Ä… is one that has no

appreciable effect on the weight, balance,

structural strength, reliability, operational characteristics, or other

characteristics affecting the airworthiness

of the product. _All other changes are ÅšÅšmajor changesÄ…Ä…_.

Given these facts and assuming one does not disregard the documents

governing the issuance of the Special Airworthiness Certificate and

Operating Limitations of the airplane, Doug's form, fit and function

replacement tanks are THE best solution, by far, IMHO.

A. Dennis Savarese

334-546-8182 (mobile)

www.yak-52.com

Skype - Yakguy1

On 3/2/2015 9:28 PM, DaBear wrote:

>

> I have to agree with the Scuba idea.  DonÄ…t manufacture a new tank,

> change the hold down and connector and use off the shelf technology

> cheaper.  It would work for the main and emergency.   If you used

> scuba tanks youÄ…d only have to change how they were mounted and the

> connection to the system.

>

> Bear

>

> *From:*[url=javascript:;]owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com[/url]

> [mailto:[url=javascript:;]owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com[/url]] *On Behalf Of *Ernest

> Martinez

> *Sent:* Monday, March 02, 2015 8:43 PM

> *To:* yak-list

> *Subject:* Re: Main Air Tanks

>

> Aluminum scuba tanks are designed to be used in salt water, can be

> hydro tested at any scuba shop, can be replaced for $200, are rated

> for 4000 PSI, so it would be a looooooooong time before a tank

> corroded to the point where it couldn't be used to contain 750 PSI.

>

> I understand the allure of a direct replacement so you don't need to

> worry about mounting. I'm assuming Doug is talking about these new

> tanks with the same form factor as stock.

>

> Is that correct Doug??

>

> Ernie

>

> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 8:34 PM, Frank Stelwagon

> <[url=javascript:;]pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.net[/url] <mailto:[url=javascript:;]pfstelwagon(at)earthlink.net[/url]>> wrote:

>

>     The Aluminum Scuba Tanks have the same problem as the steel tanks,

>     corrosion.  It would take longer but would happen - look at the

>     aluminum air filter case.

>

>     Frank

>

>     *  *

>

>     *  *

>

>     *et="_blank">[url=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List*]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List*[/url]

>

>     *tp://forums.matronics.com*

>

>     *_blank">[url=http://www.matronics.com/contribution*]http://www.matronics.com/contribution*[/url]

>

>     *  *

>

> *  *

> *  *

> **

> **

> **

> **

> **

> *[url=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List*]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List*[/url]

> **

> **

> *http://forums.matronics.com*

> **

> **

> **

> **

> *[url=http://www.matronics.com/contribution*]http://www.matronics.com/contribution*[/url]

> **

> *  *

> *

> *

===========

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          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

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===========

  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	

1 	  Quote: 	

2 	  Quote: 	

3 	  Quote: 	

4 	  Quote: 	

5 	  Quote: 	

6 	  Quote: 	

7

  [quote][b]

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:29 am Post subject: Main Air Tanks

Yes, they are your airplanes and each will do as he wants.   Yes, 

countless modifications have been done to these airplanes without any 

ill effect.   I guess I'm just more skeptical than many, particularly 

with regards to structural integrity of the airframe under loadon these 

30-40 year old airplanes. I'm pretty sure a Scuba tank of the same 

volume, not pressure, is going to weigh a whole lot more than the 

original tank or a SS replacement tank. That would entail a stronger 

support system, especially when one takes into account G loading.  That 

is why I eluded to structural considerations.



But, to each his own.  I too support Doug and in this case, support his 

direct replacement SS tank even if it costs a bit more.

Dennis



A. Dennis Savarese

334-546-8182 (mobile)

www.yak-52.com

Skype - Yakguy1



On 3/3/2015 8:37 AM, DaBear wrote:

[quote] 



 First, let me say I support Doug, always have, always will.  He has supported this community for decades.



 Agreed, there are a few things that need to be considered to change to SCUBA. However, let's start with the cost of new bottles.  If I have to replace the main, I'm close to needing to replace the emergency, thatâ€™s $700 each or $1400.



 Now, let's consider that Doug designs and builds a replacement hold down for 2 scuba bottles and the air connections.  Worst case it's probably around $200 (for 60 sets - let's play apples to apples).  Then we add it up...

 $200 --- Hold down and connection

 $320 ---- 4 hours for removal and install

 $400 ---- 2 SCUBA bottles

 $  80 --- 1 hour for new W&B



 As to the paperwork in the US.  I could argue that there is no appreciable effect on W&B, etc. however, let's say there is and you have to/want to submit the paperwork,   No different than the paperwork for the upgraded engine, fuel tanks, smoke system, etc.

 Come on, better tanks, MUCH higher safety margin since the tanks support 3k air pressure.  You can go with aluminum tanks which would weigh about the same.  So the big concern is attachment and structural support.  Please remember what used to be there in the form of radio, etc.



 Or $1,000 for a system that is better than before, easier to maintain, and now cheaper and easier to test and replace.  Remember, you take the tank to the local dive shop for annual testing if you want and find a problem go get a new tank for less than HALF of the cost of an old CJ/Yak tank.



 Come on, we've modified these planes from one end to the other.  M14P/PF, new exhaust, oil shut off, larger aluminum water trap, pre-oiler, fuel tanks, smoke systems, etc. and on and on.  We've done that to improve performance, improve safety, and make it easier and safer to maintain.

 Replacing a tank with a more expensive tank with no other improvements....at least really, seriously, think about an improvement



 No offense was intended in the above post, please don't take any.  They are your airplanes.  Make your own decision.



 Thanks,



 Bear

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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:38 am Post subject: Main Air Tanks

I totally support Doug, and I am not going to put any scuba tanks into my Yak-50, thank you very much anyway.   Although Bear/Ernie, if you come up with a plan and a kit for  installing them, I'd love to see it.  Nothing wrong with a "Plan B".



That said, this is not an "either/or" situation.  To those that swear by scuba tanks then run with it yourselves, but please don't minimize the ideas and plans of others by so doing.



Just saying.



Mark

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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:42 am Post subject: Main Air Tanks

I love this list!  At seeing Doug's proposal, I thought - -"There goes good old Doug, looking after us guys - AGAIN". Than I see Dead Bear's & The Geek's scuba idea, ( modernist both ) and read Dennis concerns.  Now at least I have something to think about when it comes time to make that decision ( sooner most likely than later ).  It nice to have a "plan B".  C Plan anyone?   

 

  Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

 

 

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