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Okanogan Lew
Joined: 22 Jul 2010
Posts: 45
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 Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:07 pm Post subject: Housai Compression |
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Guys & Jill, we did the annual compression test today on my CJ6 engine & it ranged from 59-70 psi COLD. What is the minimum acceptable low? Thanks in advance.
Paul Lewis
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:22 pm Post subject: Housai Compression |
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Paul;
The generally accepted minimum is 65/80 (80%). You should do the test as
hot as possible and determine where the leakage is coming from. Relatively
easy for rings and exhaust valve not so easy for intake valves.
The minimum should really only apply to ring leakage. Valve leakage,
usually exhaust, needs to be dealt with. I have found with these engines a
routine valve adjustment is necessary as the exhaust valve loses clearance
and leads to leakage and valve erosion.
Walt
--
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bwade154(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:26 am Post subject: Housai Compression |
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Hay group I was doing a little searching on the net the other night and found that the M-14P and the Housai are the same Bore and stroke then I asked myself if the cylinders are interchangeable. So my question to the group is are the cylinder's interchangeable?
Bill Wade
N4450Y
From: Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 12:19 AM
Subject: Re: Housai Compression
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)>
Paul;
The generally accepted minimum is 65/80 (80%). You should do the test as
hot as possible and determine where the leakage is coming from. Relatively
easy for rings and exhaust valve not so easy for intake valves.
The minimum should really only apply to ring leakage. Valve leakage,
usually exhaust, needs to be dealt with. I have found with these engines a
routine valve adjustment is necessary as the exhaust valve loses clearance
and leads to leakage and valve erosion.
Walt
--
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gill.g(at)gpimail.com
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:56 am Post subject: Housai Compression |
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Bill,
Cylinders are not interchangeable. The following are the differences:
Items
M14P
Housai
Exhaust Valve
Sodium Cooled, diameter is same as Housai
Non-cooled valve
Exhaust Valve Guide
Larger to accommodate sodium filled valve stem
Smaller
Exhaust Port
Larger exhaust manifold fitting and port
Smaller exhaust manifold fitting and port
Intake Valve
same
same
If all cylinders were replaced and a Housai exhaust manifold were used it should work just fine. But you would lose the durability of the sodium cooled valves and you would have some addition exhaust restriction due the smaller exhaust port. Also, die hard M14P owner would suggest that the metallurgy was not as good, my guess is they’re wrong.
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of bill wade
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 10:24 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Housai Compression
Hay group I was doing a little searching on the net the other night and found that the M-14P and the Housai are the same Bore and stroke then I asked myself if the cylinders are interchangeable. So my question to the group is are the cylinder's interchangeable?
Bill Wade
N4450Y
From: Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 12:19 AM
Subject: Re: Housai Compression
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)>
Paul;
The generally accepted minimum is 65/80 (80%). You should do the test as
hot as possible and determine where the leakage is coming from. Relatively
easy for rings and exhaust valve not so easy for intake valves.
The minimum should really only apply to ring leakage. Valve leakage,
usually exhaust, needs to be dealt with. I have found with these engines a
routine valve adjustment is necessary as the exhaust valve loses clearance
and leads to leakage and valve erosion.
Walt
--
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dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:27 am Post subject: Housai Compression |
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Gil,Your confused I think or mis spoke. You said: If all cylinders were replaced and a Housai exhaust manifold were used it should work just fine.
To my knowledge if a full set of 9 M14P cylinders were installed on a HS6A AND the M14P exhaust system installed there would no no problems that I can see. However, is is impossible to install a HS6A exhaust manifold on the M14P cylinder because of the size of the exhaust boss nut being larger on the M14P than the 285 hp HS6A. Yes you can change the exhaust nuts, but that's a major hassle. After giving it a bit of thought I also think the great Bundini made a adapter ring at one time, so maybe not impossible after all, just impractical.
One exception:
If one used M462RF cylinders it would be a direct bolt up situation with both the cylinder AND the 285 hp HS6A exhaust. This because the M462RF uses the same basic cylinder as the M14P AND also has the SMALLER exhaust boss nut which would allow the use of the 285 hp exhaust manifold. Rather the 285 hp system's slightly smaller dia would be a plus or a minus I have no idea.
Just my opinion, most likely worth exactly what you had to pay for it.
HS6A and M462RF cylinder sets for top overhaul will be available in the near future.
Doug
On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Gill Gutierrez <gill.g(at)gpimail.com (gill.g(at)gpimail.com)> wrote:
[quote]
Bill,
Â
Cylinders are not interchangeable. The following are the differences:
Items
M14P
Housai
Exhaust Valve
Sodium Cooled, diameter is same as Housai
Non-cooled valve
Exhaust Valve Guide
Larger to accommodate sodium filled valve stem
Smaller
Exhaust Port
Larger exhaust manifold fitting and port
Smaller exhaust manifold fitting and port
Intake Valve
same
same
Â
If all cylinders were replaced and a Housai exhaust manifold were used it should work just fine. But you would lose the durability of the sodium cooled valves and you would have some addition exhaust restriction due the smaller exhaust port. Also, die hard M14P owner would suggest that the metallurgy was not as good, my guess is they’re wrong.
Â
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of bill wade
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 10:24 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Housai Compression
Â
Hay group I was doing a little searching on the net the other night and found that the M-14P and the Housai are the same Bore and stroke then I asked myself if the cylinders are interchangeable. So my question to the group is are the cylinder's interchangeable?Â
Bill Wade
N4450Y
Â
From: Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 12:19 AM
Subject: Re: Housai Compression
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)>
Paul;
The generally accepted minimum is 65/80 (80%).  You should do the test as
hot as possible and determine where the leakage is coming from. Relatively
easy for rings and exhaust valve not so easy for intake valves.
The minimum should really only apply to ring leakage. Valve leakage,
usually exhaust, needs to be dealt with. I have found with these engines a
routine valve adjustment is necessary as the exhaust valve loses clearance
and leads to leakage and valve erosion.
Walt
--Â
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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gill.g(at)gpimail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:35 am Post subject: Housai Compression |
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Doug,
I am not confused. I think I said you would have to install a Housai exhaust manifold which would have matching exhaust nuts.
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 11:27 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Housai Compression
Gil,
Your confused I think or mis spoke. You said: If all cylinders were replaced and a Housai exhaust manifold were used it should work just fine.
To my knowledge if a full set of 9 M14P cylinders were installed on a HS6A AND the M14P exhaust system installed there would no no problems that I can see. However, is is impossible to install a HS6A exhaust manifold on the M14P cylinder because of the size of the exhaust boss nut being larger on the M14P than the 285 hp HS6A. Yes you can change the exhaust nuts, but that's a major hassle. After giving it a bit of thought I also think the great Bundini made a adapter ring at one time, so maybe not impossible after all, just impractical.
One exception:
If one used M462RF cylinders it would be a direct bolt up situation with both the cylinder AND the 285 hp HS6A exhaust. This because the M462RF uses the same basic cylinder as the M14P AND also has the SMALLER exhaust boss nut which would allow the use of the 285 hp exhaust manifold. Rather the 285 hp system's slightly smaller dia would be a plus or a minus I have no idea.
Just my opinion, most likely worth exactly what you had to pay for it.
HS6A and M462RF cylinder sets for top overhaul will be available in the near future.
Doug
On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Gill Gutierrez <gill.g(at)gpimail.com (gill.g(at)gpimail.com)> wrote:
Bill,
Cylinders are not interchangeable. The following are the differences:
Items
M14P
Housai
Exhaust Valve
Sodium Cooled, diameter is same as Housai
Non-cooled valve
Exhaust Valve Guide
Larger to accommodate sodium filled valve stem
Smaller
Exhaust Port
Larger exhaust manifold fitting and port
Smaller exhaust manifold fitting and port
Intake Valve
same
same
If all cylinders were replaced and a Housai exhaust manifold were used it should work just fine. But you would lose the durability of the sodium cooled valves and you would have some addition exhaust restriction due the smaller exhaust port. Also, die hard M14P owner would suggest that the metallurgy was not as good, my guess is they’re wrong.
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of bill wade
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 10:24 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Housai Compression
Hay group I was doing a little searching on the net the other night and found that the M-14P and the Housai are the same Bore and stroke then I asked myself if the cylinders are interchangeable. So my question to the group is are the cylinder's interchangeable?
Bill Wade
N4450Y
From: Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 12:19 AM
Subject: Re: Housai Compression
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)>
Paul;
The generally accepted minimum is 65/80 (80%). You should do the test as
hot as possible and determine where the leakage is coming from. Relatively
easy for rings and exhaust valve not so easy for intake valves.
The minimum should really only apply to ring leakage. Valve leakage,
usually exhaust, needs to be dealt with. I have found with these engines a
routine valve adjustment is necessary as the exhaust valve loses clearance
and leads to leakage and valve erosion.
Walt
--
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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bwade154(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:27 pm Post subject: Housai Compression |
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Thanks Gill that clears it up Bill
From: Gill Gutierrez <gill.g(at)gpimail.com>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 1:56 PM
Subject: RE: Housai Compression
Bill,
Cylinders are not interchangeable. The following are the differences:
Items
M14P
Housai
Exhaust Valve
Sodium Cooled, diameter is same as Housai
Non-cooled valve
Exhaust Valve Guide
Larger to accommodate sodium filled valve stem
Smaller
Exhaust Port
Larger exhaust manifold fitting and port
Smaller exhaust manifold fitting and port
Intake Valve
same
same
If all cylinders were replaced and a Housai exhaust manifold were used it should work just fine. But you would lose the durability of the sodium cooled valves and you would have some addition exhaust restriction due the smaller exhaust port. Also, die hard M14P owner would suggest that the metallurgy was not as good, my guess is they’re wrong.
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of bill wade
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 10:24 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Housai Compression
Hay group I was doing a little searching on the net the other night and found that the M-14P and the Housai are the same Bore and stroke then I asked myself if the cylinders are interchangeable. So my question to the group is are the cylinder's interchangeable?
Bill Wade
N4450Y
From: Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 12:19 AM
Subject: Re: Housai Compression
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)>
Paul;
The generally accepted minimum is 65/80 (80%). You should do the test as
hot as possible and determine where the leakage is coming from. Relatively
easy for rings and exhaust valve not so easy for intake valves.
The minimum should really only apply to ring leakage. Valve leakage,
usually exhaust, needs to be dealt with. I have found with these engines a
routine valve adjustment is necessary as the exhaust valve loses clearance
and leads to leakage and valve erosion.
Walt
--
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William Halverson
Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 88
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okanoganlew(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:30 am Post subject: Housai Compression |
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Hi Walt, thanks for your reply. We did warm up the engine & all cylinders were 65-70. So, I am relieved!
Paul
On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 9:07 PM, Okanogan Lew <vplewis(at)community.org (vplewis(at)community.org)> wrote:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Okanogan Lew" <vplewis(at)community.org (vplewis(at)community.org)>
Guys & Jill, we did the annual compression test today on my CJ6 engine & it ranged from 59-70 psi COLD. What is the minimum acceptable low? Thanks in advance.
Paul Lewis
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440356#440356
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rocknpilot(at)hotmail.com
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:44 am Post subject: Housai Compression |
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On that note...is this common practice on the M-14P as well???
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //Hangar #35 / AUW
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
Hangar #21 / AUW
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 11:30:27 -0700
Subject: Re: Housai Compression
From: okanoganlew(at)gmail.com
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Hi Walt, thanks for your reply. We did warm up the engine & all cylinders were 65-70. So, I am relieved!
Paul
On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 9:07 PM, Okanogan Lew <vplewis(at)community.org (vplewis(at)community.org)> wrote:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Okanogan Lew" <vplewis(at)community.org (vplewis(at)community.org)>
Guys & Jill, we did the annual compression test today on my CJ6 engine & it ranged from 59-70 psi COLD. What is the minimum acceptable low? Thanks in advance.
Paul Lewis
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440356#440356
===========
List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
===========
FORUMS -
_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
===========
rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
===========
http://forums.matronics.com
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="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:23 am Post subject: Housai Compression |
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Yes Rico, the expansion of the rings in the M-14 is pretty dramatic and compression needs to be taken when the engine is hot, and then as quickly as possible. This is also why oil leaks past these rings so easily when they are cold. It is also why the gapless ring concept by Monty Barrett, the Coys, Jill, etc., all work so well.
As Walt mentioned, and I concur with totally.... you need to be on the lookout for exhaust valve leaks. If I see compression readings lower than 80/70, then I want to know why. If I hear air leaking out the exhaust then I will first check the lash, then stake it, and if none of that works I would use a bore-scope to see if I can check the valve visually. After that, I would .... well.... I would add a ton of MMO to the fuel, go fly it and run the living crap out of it and get it good and hot for at least 30 minutes, then come back and test it again. If all that failed, and I still have leakage, other than a ring issue, I'd yank the jug and fix it. I've only had to do that twice in 800 hours... he says with fingers crossed. Be aware that this is a personal judgment call. Others can, and probably will, disagree.
On that same topic, never let anyone talk you into doing the Indian Rope Dance trick to surface a valve on these engines, especially on a top cylinder, which is normally where you will have an exhaust valve leaking. I am talking about the trick where you pull the plugs, stuff rope down into the cylinder, then remove valve springs and rockers, insert valve grinding compound through the spark plug hole and then rotate valve stem. Lots of A&P's swear by this method on opposed engines... but where do you think that valve grinding compound is going to end up if you stick it into one of the top cylinders? Yep, some of it is going to drop right down on top of the pistons and ring lands. Good luck with that Kemo-Sabi.
Mark
--
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rocknpilot(at)hotmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:35 am Post subject: Housai Compression |
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Man, you guys are amazing. This is like being back in college...the learning never stops. It was even harder when I switched to Music Education from my REAL passion: gynecology. Of course I was completely self-taught...
So...what is a typical compression check? Fire up / warm up for how long / what temps? Then how soon after - pull plugs?
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //Hangar #35 / AUW
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
Hangar #21 / AUW
[quote] From: mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Housai Compression
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 19:23:08 +0000
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
Yes Rico, the expansion of the rings in the M-14 is pretty dramatic and compression needs to be taken when the engine is hot, and then as quickly as possible. This is also why oil leaks past these rings so easily when they are cold. It is also why the gapless ring concept by Monty Barrett, the Coys, Jill, etc., all work so well.
As Walt mentioned, and I concur with totally.... you need to be on the lookout for exhaust valve leaks. If I see compression readings lower than 80/70, then I want to know why. If I hear air leaking out the exhaust then I will first check the lash, then stake it, and if none of that works I would use a bore-scope to see if I can check the valve visually. After that, I would .... well.... I would add a ton of MMO to the fuel, go fly it and run the living crap out of it and get it good and hot for at least 30 minutes, then come back and test it again. If all that failed, and I still have leakage, other than a ring issue, I'd yank the jug and fix it. I've only had to do that twice in 800 hours... he says with fingers crossed. Be aware that this is a personal judgment call. Others can, and probably will, disagree.
On that same topic, never let anyone talk you into doing the Indian Rope Dance trick to surface a valve on these engines, especially on a top cylinder, which is normally where you will have an exhaust valve leaking. I am talking about the trick where you pull the plugs, stuff rope down into the cylinder, then remove valve springs and rockers, insert valve grinding compound through the spark plug hole and then rotate valve stem. Lots of A&P's swear by this method on opposed engines... but where do you think that valve grinding compound is going to end up if you stick it into one of the top cylinders? Yep, some of it is going to drop right down on top of the pistons and ring lands. Good luck with that Kemo-Sabi.
Mark
--
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:46 am Post subject: Housai Compression |
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To each his own ... keep in my mind that on my 50, there are no gills/slats installed anymore, so it is an EASY thing. I leave the cowl on, run it until cylinder head temps are at least well up into the green. Normal warm up, then run it at about 60-70 percent until temps are stable. Idle it for a minute or so, then jump out and start pulling the front plugs just as fast as my fingers and tools can go. In the meantime, my A&P is putting the air adapter in the first cylinder. We are usually measuring within 5-10 minutes after shutdown. Always do the TOP cylinders first. Oil gets down into the bottom cylinders and you will usually have the best compression readings there... so do the top ones first. IF you ever have low compression on a bottom cylinder... it usually means you need to take a real close look.... real close.
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