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Shoulder Harnesses

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philperry9

Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 381

Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:32 pm Post subject: Shoulder Harnesses

Last night I was thinking about the images in Doug's photos and was really curious to know how effective the shoulder harness anchor bolt is in that situation. Â 

My curiosity stems from seeing a friends Culver Cadet (no shoulder harnesses in that old plane) that he landed off field 7 years ago. Â  It's still sitting in his garage and has a pair of human head shaped indentations in the glare shield.Â  If he had effective shoulder harnesses, it would have saved them some blood and a deviated septum.

We've had a handful of RV-10 accidents that have tested the integrity of the shoulder harness anchor bolt possibly being pulled through the fiberglass hole.Â  I just wonder how it really performed in each of these accidents.

1) Have any of you seen, first hand, an RV-10 airframe after it has been in an accident where the shoulder harnesses were stressed significantly?

2) Would any of you know where we could get that information?Â  Perhaps a FOIA or something similar?

I'd really like to get the real details on how that shoulder harness performed.Â  We've probably got 5-6 accidents where that information could/would be collected.

Phil



  [quote][b]

Dave Saylor

Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Posts: 209
Location: GILROY, CA

Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:53 pm Post subject: Shoulder Harnesses

Phil,



I think it's worth considering that if the harness bolt is pulled in the intended direction, it seems to me that it would be loaded in shear, not tension.Â  So if the crash is survivable, the bolt pulling through the cabin cover isn't what we would see.Â  I'm not an engineer, but I did copy the front mounts for my rear inertia mounts...and I wondered the same thing until it occurred to me that the bolt gets tugged in a line approaching the direction of flight.Â  I don't think it would get pulled through.

--Dave

On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 3:29 PM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]Last night I was thinking about the images in Doug's photos and was really curious to know how effective the shoulder harness anchor bolt is in that situation. Â 

My curiosity stems from seeing a friends Culver Cadet (no shoulder harnesses in that old plane) that he landed off field 7 years ago. Â  It's still sitting in his garage and has a pair of human head shaped indentations in the glare shield.Â  If he had effective shoulder harnesses, it would have saved them some blood and a deviated septum.

We've had a handful of RV-10 accidents that have tested the integrity of the shoulder harness anchor bolt possibly being pulled through the fiberglass hole.Â  I just wonder how it really performed in each of these accidents.

1) Have any of you seen, first hand, an RV-10 airframe after it has been in an accident where the shoulder harnesses were stressed significantly?

2) Would any of you know where we could get that information?Â  Perhaps a FOIA or something similar?

I'd really like to get the real details on how that shoulder harness performed.Â  We've probably got 5-6 accidents where that information could/would be collected.

Phil



   	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

_________________
--Dave
KWVI

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:15 pm Post subject: Re: Shoulder Harnesses

Well, I'd say the front harness mounts see a substantial amount of tension as well as shear. 

Looking at the photos and the text, it appears a large section of the left roof failed. I wonder if the forces exerted by the shoulder harness contributed to this? Or did the roof fail only after experiencing an unsurvivable loading, say more than ten times the pilot's weight, from the harness? Or was the failure due to crash forces applied directly, independent of the harness?

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

carl.froehlich(at)verizon
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 4:43 am Post subject: Shoulder Harnesses

Phil,

Good questions.  Lacking data however I evaluated the canopy top fiberglass thickness for the pilot and copilot shoulder harness anchor points less than adequate considering the significant countersink depth needed to have the anchor screw flush with the cabin top.  Again, no data to say my evaluation was correct or not.

I added several bids of glass on the inside of the canopy top for each anchor point.  The first layer being 1/16" thick covering an area of 10" by 10" or so, then another 6" by 6",  1/16" or so layer on top of that.  The objective being to allow for fairing with the rest of the bottom of the cabin top.  This resulted in sufficient thickness for countersinking the head of the anchor screw such that it was slightly below the surface of the canopy top.  I flatten the screw edges and installed the anchor screw in some flox as I wanted to make sure it would not turn when tightening the nut onto the inside.  Sanded the flox flush, a layer of glass on top of that, then a skim coat of micro balloons to fair it in.

Carl





On Apr 10, 2015, at 6:29 PM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]Last night I was thinking about the images in Doug's photos and was really curious to know how effective the shoulder harness anchor bolt is in that situation.  

My curiosity stems from seeing a friends Culver Cadet (no shoulder harnesses in that old plane) that he landed off "field 7 years ago.   It's still sitting in his garage and has a pair of human head shaped indentations in the glare shield.  If he had effective shoulder harnesses, it would have saved them some blood and a deviated septum.

We've had a handful of RV-10 accidents that have tested the integrity of the shoulder harness anchor bolt possibly being pulled through the fiberglass hole.  I just wonder how it really performed in each of these accidents.

1) Have any of you seen, first hand, an RV-10 airframe after it has been in an accident where the shoulder harnesses were stressed significantly?

2) Would any of you know where we could get that information?  Perhaps a FOIA or something similar?

I'd really like to get the real details on how that shoulder harness performed.  We've probably got 5-6 accidents where that information could/would be collected.

Phil



   	  Quote: 	
		  



D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

//forums.matronics.com

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ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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[b]

philperry9

Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 381

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:23 am Post subject: Shoulder Harnesses

I did the same thing on mine.

I'm just curious how they've actually performed in the accidents that have been logged. 

Perhaps an I need to make a call into the NTSB and see if there is more information beyond what is available in the docket. 



Sent from my iPhone



On Apr 11, 2015, at 7:40 AM, Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net (carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net)> wrote:

[quote]

Phil,

Good questions.  Lacking data however I evaluated the canopy top fiberglass thickness for the pilot and copilot shoulder harness anchor points less than adequate considering the significant countersink depth needed to have the anchor screw flush with the cabin top.  Again, no data to say my evaluation was correct or not.

I added several bids of glass on the inside of the canopy top for each anchor point.  The first layer being 1/16" thick covering an area of 10" by 10" or so, then another 6" by 6",  1/16" or so layer on top of that.  The objective being to allow for fairing with the rest of the bottom of the cabin top.  This resulted in sufficient thickness for countersinking the head of the anchor screw such that it was slightly below the surface of the canopy top.  I flatten the screw edges and installed the anchor screw in some flox as I wanted to make sure it would not turn when tightening the nut onto the inside.  Sanded the flox flush, a layer of glass on top of that, then a skim coat of micro balloons to fair it in.

Carl





On Apr 10, 2015, at 6:29 PM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Last night I was thinking about the images in Doug's photos and was really curious to know how effective the shoulder harness anchor bolt is in that situation.  

My curiosity stems from seeing a friends Culver Cadet (no shoulder harnesses in that old plane) that he landed off "field 7 years ago.   It's still sitting in his garage and has a pair of human head shaped indentations in the glare shield.  If he had effective shoulder harnesses, it would have saved them some blood and a deviated septum.

We've had a handful of RV-10 accidents that have tested the integrity of the shoulder harness anchor bolt possibly being pulled through the fiberglass hole.  I just wonder how it really performed in each of these accidents.

1) Have any of you seen, first hand, an RV-10 airframe after it has been in an accident where the shoulder harnesses were stressed significantly?

2) Would any of you know where we could get that information?  Perhaps a FOIA or something similar?

I'd really like to get the real details on how that shoulder harness performed.  We've probably got 5-6 accidents where that information could/would be collected.

Phil



   	  Quote: 	
		  



D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

//forums.matronics.com

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



	
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List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

//forums.matronics.com

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ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



	


[b]

bwestfall

Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 131
Location: Portland, OR

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 10:00 am Post subject: Shoulder Harnesses

What about that crash near Lake Placid Airport in NY that went into the trees in the cold.Â  All occupants walked away OK with minor injories.Â  There was also the one in SoCal, Ramona RMN that put it on a hillside into terrain and walked away.Â  Seems the belts and airframe performed as designed on those instances.

 

I think the key is survivable impact.Â  Iâ€™d hazard a pretty safe guess that Vanâ€™s engineered the structure appropriately.Â  Who knows if they used the official 170lb FAA weight or the bubba weight though?

 

-Ben

 

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phillip Perry

Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2015 6:15 AM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Shoulder Harnesses

 

I did the same thing on mine.



 



I'm just curious how they've actually performed in the accidents that have been logged. 



 



Perhaps an I need to make a call into the NTSB and see if there is more information beyond what is available in the docket. 



Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 11, 2015, at 7:40 AM, Carl Froehlich wrote:

[quote]

Phil,



 



Good questions.  Lacking data however I evaluated the canopy top fiberglass thickness for the pilot and copilot shoulder harness anchor points less than adequate considering the significant countersink depth needed to have the anchor screw flush with the cabin top.  Again, no data to say my evaluation was correct or not.



 



I added several bids of glass on the inside of the canopy top for each anchor point.  The first layer being 1/16" thick covering an area of 10" by 10" or so, then another 6" by 6",  1/16" or so layer on top of that.  The objective being to allow for fairing with the rest of the bottom of the cabin top.  This resulted in sufficient thickness for countersinking the head of the anchor screw such that it was slightly below the surface of the canopy top.  I flatten the screw edges and installed the anchor screw in some flox as I wanted to make sure it would not turn when tightening the nut onto the inside.  Sanded the flox flush, a layer of glass on top of that, then a skim coat of micro balloons to fair it in.



 



Carl





On Apr 10, 2015, at 6:29 PM, Phillip Perry wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Last night I was thinking about the images in Doug's photos and was really curious to know how effective the shoulder harness anchor bolt is in that situation.  



 



My curiosity stems from seeing a friends Culver Cadet (no shoulder harnesses in that old plane) that he landed off "field 7 years ago.   It's still sitting in his garage and has a pair of human head shaped indentations in the glare shield.  If he had effective shoulder harnesses, it would have saved them some blood and a deviated septum.



 



We've had a handful of RV-10 accidents that have tested the integrity of the shoulder harness anchor bolt possibly being pulled through the fiberglass hole.  I just wonder how it really performed in each of these accidents.



 



1) Have any of you seen, first hand, an RV-10 airframe after it has been in an accident where the shoulder harnesses were stressed significantly?



 



2) Would any of you know where we could get that information?  Perhaps a FOIA or something similar?



 



I'd really like to get the real details on how that shoulder harness performed.  We've probably got 5-6 accidents where that information could/would be collected.



 



Phil



 

	




[b]

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:01 pm Post subject: Shoulder Harnesses

I have thought about countersunk washers to strengthen things, but that 

means taking away more fiberglass....not good.



On 4/11/2015 6:15 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I did the same thing on mine.



 I'm just curious how they've actually performed in the accidents that 

 have been logged.



 Perhaps an I need to make a call into the NTSB and see if there is 

 more information beyond what is available in the docket.



 Sent from my iPhone



 On Apr 11, 2015, at 7:40 AM, Carl Froehlich 

 <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net <mailto:carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net>> wrote:



> Phil,

>

> Good questions.  Lacking data however I evaluated the canopy top 

> fiberglass thickness for the pilot and copilot shoulder harness 

> anchor points less than adequate considering the significant 

> countersink depth needed to have the anchor screw flush with the 

> cabin top.  Again, no data to say my evaluation was correct or not.

>

> I added several bids of glass on the inside of the canopy top for 

> each anchor point.  The first layer being 1/16" thick covering an 

> area of 10" by 10" or so, then another 6" by 6",  1/16" or so layer 

> on top of that.  The objective being to allow for fairing with the 

> rest of the bottom of the cabin top.  This resulted in sufficient 

> thickness for countersinking the head of the anchor screw such that 

> it was slightly below the surface of the canopy top.  I flatten the 

> screw edges and installed the anchor screw in some flox as I wanted 

> to make sure it would not turn when tightening the nut onto the 

> inside.  Sanded the flox flush, a layer of glass on top of that, then 

> a skim coat of micro balloons to fair it in.

>

> Carl

>

> On Apr 10, 2015, at 6:29 PM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com 

> <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com>> wrote:

>

>> Last night I was thinking about the images in Doug's photos and was 

>> really curious to know how effective the shoulder harness anchor 

>> bolt is in that situation.

>>

>> My curiosity stems from seeing a friends Culver Cadet (no shoulder 

>> harnesses in that old plane) that he landed off "field 7 years ago. 

>>   It's still sitting in his garage and has a pair of human head 

>> shaped indentations in the glare shield.  If he had effective 

>> shoulder harnesses, it would have saved them some blood and a 

>> deviated septum.

>>

>> We've had a handful of RV-10 accidents that have tested the 

>> integrity of the shoulder harness anchor bolt possibly being pulled 

>> through the fiberglass hole.  I just wonder how it really performed 

>> in each of these accidents.

>>

>> 1) Have any of you seen, first hand, an RV-10 airframe after it has 

>> been in an accident where the shoulder harnesses were stressed 

>> significantly?

>>

>> 2) Would any of you know where we could get that information?  

>> Perhaps a FOIA or something similar?

>>

>> I'd really like to get the real details on how that shoulder harness 

>> performed.  We've probably got 5-6 accidents where that information 

>> could/would be collected.

>>

>> Phil

>>

>> *

>>

>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>> List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>> //forums.matronics.com  <http://forums.matronics.com>

>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>>

>> *

>> =

> *

>

> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

> List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

> //forums.matronics.com

> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>

> *

 *

 *

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

speckter(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:15 pm Post subject: Shoulder Harnesses

I am not sure what problem needs solving here. Don't we think Van designed things correctly? There doesn't seem to be any evidence of a design problem. SWAG engineering just doesn't cut it here.  Adding extra layers to the inside of a composite structure only adds weight and not strength. 



Gary



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Apr 11, 2015, at 4:57 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 I have thought about countersunk washers to strengthen things, but that means taking away more fiberglass....not good.

 

> On 4/11/2015 6:15 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:

> I did the same thing on mine.

> 

> I'm just curious how they've actually performed in the accidents that have been logged.

> 

> Perhaps an I need to make a call into the NTSB and see if there is more information beyond what is available in the docket.

> 

> Sent from my iPhone

> 

>> On Apr 11, 2015, at 7:40 AM, Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net <mailto:carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net>> wrote:

>> 

>> Phil,

>> 

>> Good questions.  Lacking data however I evaluated the canopy top fiberglass thickness for the pilot and copilot shoulder harness anchor points less than adequate considering the significant countersink depth needed to have the anchor screw flush with the cabin top.  Again, no data to say my evaluation was correct or not.

>> 

>> I added several bids of glass on the inside of the canopy top for each anchor point.  The first layer being 1/16" thick covering an area of 10" by 10" or so, then another 6" by 6",  1/16" or so layer on top of that.  The objective being to allow for fairing with the rest of the bottom of the cabin top.  This resulted in sufficient thickness for countersinking the head of the anchor screw such that it was slightly below the surface of the canopy top.  I flatten the screw edges and installed the anchor screw in some flox as I wanted to make sure it would not turn when tightening the nut onto the inside.  Sanded the flox flush, a layer of glass on top of that, then a skim coat of micro balloons to fair it in.

>> 

>> Carl

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>> On Apr 10, 2015, at 6:29 PM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com>> wrote:

>>> 

>>> Last night I was thinking about the images in Doug's photos and was really curious to know how effective the shoulder harness anchor bolt is in that situation.

>>> 

>>> My curiosity stems from seeing a friends Culver Cadet (no shoulder harnesses in that old plane) that he landed off "field 7 years ago.   It's still sitting in his garage and has a pair of human head shaped indentations in the glare shield.  If he had effective shoulder harnesses, it would have saved them some blood and a deviated septum.

>>> 

>>> We've had a handful of RV-10 accidents that have tested the integrity of the shoulder harness anchor bolt possibly being pulled through the fiberglass hole.  I just wonder how it really performed in each of these accidents.

>>> 

>>> 1) Have any of you seen, first hand, an RV-10 airframe after it has been in an accident where the shoulder harnesses were stressed significantly?

>>> 

>>> 2) Would any of you know where we could get that information?  Perhaps a FOIA or something similar?

>>> 

>>> I'd really like to get the real details on how that shoulder harness performed.  We've probably got 5-6 accidents where that information could/would be collected.

>>> 

>>> Phil

>>> 

>>> *

>>> 

>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>>> List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>>> //forums.matronics.com  <http://forums.matronics.com>

>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>>> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>>> 

>>> *

>>> =

>> *

>> 

>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>> List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>> //forums.matronics.com

>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>> 

>> *

> *

> 

> 

> *

philperry9

Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 381

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:46 pm Post subject: Shoulder Harnesses

The question isn't why are they insufficient.  They question is where do we go to find out how they have performed in the incidents to date.  



We have a decent set of incident data  for off field landings.   We have  good half dozen incidents resulting in fatalities. 



None of the shoulder harness data is published but it has to be collected.   It exist. Being able to review that data relative to the accident type/severity would let us know if we do have a problem or not.  Dead men can't speak but the data would and we would all benefit by the factual data.



Phil



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Apr 11, 2015, at 4:11 PM, Gary <speckter(at)comcast.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 I am not sure what problem needs solving here. Don't we think Van designed things correctly? There doesn't seem to be any evidence of a design problem. SWAG engineering just doesn't cut it here.  Adding extra layers to the inside of a composite structure only adds weight and not strength. 

 

 Gary

 

 

 

> On Apr 11, 2015, at 4:57 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> I have thought about countersunk washers to strengthen things, but that means taking away more fiberglass....not good.

> 

>> On 4/11/2015 6:15 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:

>> I did the same thing on mine.

>> 

>> I'm just curious how they've actually performed in the accidents that have been logged.

>> 

>> Perhaps an I need to make a call into the NTSB and see if there is more information beyond what is available in the docket.

>> 

>> Sent from my iPhone

>> 

>>> On Apr 11, 2015, at 7:40 AM, Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net <mailto:carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net>> wrote:

>>> 

>>> Phil,

>>> 

>>> Good questions.  Lacking data however I evaluated the canopy top fiberglass thickness for the pilot and copilot shoulder harness anchor points less than adequate considering the significant countersink depth needed to have the anchor screw flush with the cabin top.  Again, no data to say my evaluation was correct or not.

>>> 

>>> I added several bids of glass on the inside of the canopy top for each anchor point.  The first layer being 1/16" thick covering an area of 10" by 10" or so, then another 6" by 6",  1/16" or so layer on top of that.  The objective being to allow for fairing with the rest of the bottom of the cabin top.  This resulted in sufficient thickness for countersinking the head of the anchor screw such that it was slightly below the surface of the canopy top.  I flatten the screw edges and installed the anchor screw in some flox as I wanted to make sure it would not turn when tightening the nut onto the inside.  Sanded the flox flush, a layer of glass on top of that, then a skim coat of micro balloons to fair it in.

>>> 

>>> Carl

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>>> On Apr 10, 2015, at 6:29 PM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com>> wrote:

>>>> 

>>>> Last night I was thinking about the images in Doug's photos and was really curious to know how effective the shoulder harness anchor bolt is in that situation.

>>>> 

>>>> My curiosity stems from seeing a friends Culver Cadet (no shoulder harnesses in that old plane) that he landed off "field 7 years ago.   It's still sitting in his garage and has a pair of human head shaped indentations in the glare shield.  If he had effective shoulder harnesses, it would have saved them some blood and a deviated septum.

>>>> 

>>>> We've had a handful of RV-10 accidents that have tested the integrity of the shoulder harness anchor bolt possibly being pulled through the fiberglass hole.  I just wonder how it really performed in each of these accidents.

>>>> 

>>>> 1) Have any of you seen, first hand, an RV-10 airframe after it has been in an accident where the shoulder harnesses were stressed significantly?

>>>> 

>>>> 2) Would any of you know where we could get that information?  Perhaps a FOIA or something similar?

>>>> 

>>>> I'd really like to get the real details on how that shoulder harness performed.  We've probably got 5-6 accidents where that information could/would be collected.

>>>> 

>>>> Phil

>>>> 

>>>> *

>>>> 

>>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>>>> List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

>>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>>>> //forums.matronics.com  <http://forums.matronics.com>

>>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>>>> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

>>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>>>> 

>>>> *

>>>> =

>>> *

>>> 

>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>>> List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>>> //forums.matronics.com

>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>>> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

>>> 

>>> *

>> *

>> 

>> 

>> *

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:27 pm Post subject: Shoulder Harnesses

I do not think the question has been answered whether they are adequate, i.e. what force are they designed for in shear and in tension.



I've not seen any evidence that they are inadequate. I believe there is a significant difference between the green and pink canopys, espec reinforcement behind the doors. The pink looks like it just about has a roll bar installed there, just in front of the shoulder harness bolt holes.

On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 3:42 PM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)>

 

 The question isn't why are they insufficient.Â  They question is where do we go to find out how they have performed in the incidents to date.

 

 We have a decent set of incident dataÂ  for off field landings.Â  Â We haveÂ  good half dozen incidents resulting in fatalities.

 

 None of the shoulder harness data is published but it has to be collected.Â  Â It exist. Being able to review that data relative to the accident type/severity would let us know if we do have a problem or not.Â  Dead men can't speak but the data would and we would all benefit by the factual data.

 

 Phil

 

 Sent from my iPhone

 

 > On Apr 11, 2015, at 4:11 PM, Gary <speckter(at)comcast.net (speckter(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

 >

 > --> RV10-List message posted by: Gary <speckter(at)comcast.net (speckter(at)comcast.net)>

 >

 > I am not sure what problem needs solving here. Don't we think Van designed things correctly? There doesn't seem to be any evidence of a design problem. SWAG engineering just doesn't cut it here.Â  Adding extra layers to the inside of a composite structure only adds weight and not strength.

 >

 > Gary

 >

 >

 >

 >> On Apr 11, 2015, at 4:57 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:

 >>

 >> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

 >>

 >> I have thought about countersunk washers to strengthen things, but that means taking away more fiberglass....not good.

 >>

 >>> On 4/11/2015 6:15 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:

 >>> I did the same thing on mine.

 >>>

 >>> I'm just curious how they've actually performed in the accidents that have been logged.

 >>>

 >>> Perhaps an I need to make a call into the NTSB and see if there is more information beyond what is available in the docket.

 >>>

 >>> Sent from my iPhone

 >>>

 >>>> On Apr 11, 2015, at 7:40 AM, Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net (carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net) <mailto:carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net (carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net)>> wrote:

 >>>>

 >>>> Phil,

 >>>>

 >>>> Good questions.Â  Lacking data however I evaluated the canopy top fiberglass thickness for the pilot and copilot shoulder harness anchor points less than adequate considering the significant countersink depth needed to have the anchor screw flush with the cabin top.Â  Again, no data to say my evaluation was correct or not.

 >>>>

 >>>> I added several bids of glass on the inside of the canopy top for each anchor point.Â  The first layer being 1/16" thick covering an area of 10" by 10" or so, then another 6" by 6",Â  1/16" or so layer on top of that.Â  The objective being to allow for fairing with the rest of the bottom of the cabin top.Â  This resulted in sufficient thickness for countersinking the head of the anchor screw such that it was slightly below the surface of the canopy top.Â  I flatten the screw edges and installed the anchor screw in some flox as I wanted to make sure it would not turn when tightening the nut onto the inside.Â  Sanded the flox flush, a layer of glass on top of that, then a skim coat of micro balloons to fair it in.

 >>>>

 >>>> Carl

 >>>>

 >>>>

 >>>>

 >>>>> On Apr 10, 2015, at 6:29 PM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com) <mailto:philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)>> wrote:

 >>>>>

 >>>>> Last night I was thinking about the images in Doug's photos and was really curious to know how effective the shoulder harness anchor bolt is in that situation.

 >>>>>

 >>>>> My curiosity stems from seeing a friends Culver Cadet (no shoulder harnesses in that old plane) that he landed off "field 7 years ago.Â  Â It's still sitting in his garage and has a pair of human head shaped indentations in the glare shield.Â  If he had effective shoulder harnesses, it would have saved them some blood and a deviated septum.

 >>>>>

 >>>>> We've had a handful of RV-10 accidents that have tested the integrity of the shoulder harness anchor bolt possibly being pulled through the fiberglass hole.Â  I just wonder how it really performed in each of these accidents.

 >>>>>

 >>>>> 1) Have any of you seen, first hand, an RV-10 airframe after it has been in an accident where the shoulder harnesses were stressed significantly?

 >>>>>

 >>>>> 2) Would any of you know where we could get that information?Â  Perhaps a FOIA or something similar?

 >>>>>

 >>>>> I'd really like to get the real details on how that shoulder harness performed.Â  We've probably got 5-6 accidents where that information could/would be collected.

 >>>>>

 >>>>> Phil

 >>>>>

 >>>>> *

 >>>>>

 >>>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 >>>>> List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 >>>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 >>>>> //forums.matronics.comÂ  <http://forums.matronics.com>

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 >>>>> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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 >>>>>

 >>>>> *

 >>>>> =

 >>>> *

 >>>>

 >>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 >>>> List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 >>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 >>>> //forums.matronics.com

 >>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 >>>> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 >>>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 >>>>

 >>>> *

 >>> *

 >>>

 >>>

 >>> *

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 

 

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 ===========

  FORUMS -

 _blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 b Site -

 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 



[b]

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

fdombroski

Joined: 14 Mar 2009
Posts: 33
Location: Westfield NJ

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:24 am Post subject: Re: Shoulder Harnesses

From the Lake Placid NY crash...



Preamble: It has been just over 2 years since this crash.  On several occasions I have started to do a write-up on the incident.  Each time I have tried I get tangled up in my own brutal self judgment.  I am know as a very competent and conscientious pilot.  2,000 hours flying since 1986, instrument rated since 1989.  At the time of the accident I was very IFR current, in a very capable aircraft, yet I allowed myself to follow a series of small events into a classic accident scenario.  While I have flown over 100 hours since the crash, I still have a difficult time reconciling this in my mind.  I remain confident in my pilot skills, but have an excessively conservative approach to the passion of flying.



I will try to post a thorough synopsis of the accident in a separate post in the next few days.  Please hold off on questions and comments about the crash until I post this as a separate thread.



As for the airframe, the majority of the impact was absorbed by a side load impact.  That impact contacted the fuselage on the pilot side at the junction of the leading edge wing root and the fuse at the instrument panel station.  The entire panel and front of the fuse were displaced about 1 foot to the right.  

The lower portion of the fuselage separated from the fiberglass upper structure in that area.  The remainder of the fiberglass top remained intact.  The shoulder harness attach points showed no sign of stress or compromise.  There was no impact bruising from the harness on any of the occupants.  Due to the initial side impact, and subsequent wing leading edge impact with multiple pine trees as we descended the final 100 feet, there was minimal frontal impact when we came to rest nose down on the mountain.



The RV-10 withstood a tremendous amount of impact damage, and the cabin remained a safe haven.  I am almost done building a new RV-10 to replace N10FD.



Best,

Frank

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Frank Dombroski
Multiple Offender RV-8, 7A, 10 x 2
RV-10 2.0 N46VT 2015
KSMQ Somerset Airport NJ

AirMike

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 514
Location: Nevada

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:10 pm Post subject: Re: Shoulder Harnesses

Wow - thank you for the posting. Gives us all a lot of confidence in our craft. I love the casual, "as we descended the final 100 feet." We all look forward to your more extensive post. God Bless you and we wish you many years of safe flying ahead. Perhaps you could give a lecture with Q&A at OSH this year!

_________________
See you OSH '18
Q/B - sold.

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