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kenryan

Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426

Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:22 am Post subject: basic questions on terminal strips

I have two beacons, each beacon has a positive, negative and

synchronization wire. I need to connect the wires from each beacon and

then send them forward. I have chosen to accomplish this with a

terminal strip.



I have noticed that the terminal strips do use star washers. Should I

use a star washer atop my ring terminals? Or maybe I should use thread

locker on the terminal strip screw?



Also, is it okay to stack two ring terminals on one side of the

terminal strip (as shown in the attached photo)?



Thanks.

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user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1925
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: basic questions on terminal strips

Unless the wires will be taken apart frequently or need to be exposed for testing, I prefer to make a permanent splice.  Terminal strips could be a trouble spot due to loose screws or corrosion.  If a terminal strip is used, an internal tooth star washer between the ring terminals and screw head is a good idea.  Temporary thread locker could also be used.  When I install two ring terminals under one screw, I orientate them back to back so that a ring terminal does not have to be bent.  A thin film of grease will help prevent  corrosion.  Grease does not hinder conduction because the screw pressure forces the grease out.  Thus there is still metal to metal contact.  Wires should be supported close to the ring terminals to prevent any relative motion due to vibration.  Your installation looks neat with the cushion clamps.

_________________
Joe Gores

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:39 pm Post subject: basic questions on terminal strips

At 02:20 PM 6/19/2015, you wrote:

 I have two beacons, each beacon has a positive, negative and

 synchronization wire. I need to connect the wires from each beacon and

 then send them forward. I have chosen to accomplish this with a

 terminal strip.



 I have noticed that the terminal strips do use star washers. Should I

 use a star washer atop my ring terminals? Or maybe I should use thread

 locker on the terminal strip screw?



 Also, is it okay to stack two ring terminals on one side of the

 terminal strip (as shown in the attached photo)?



 Thanks.



   As a general rule, new designs will minimize the use of threaded fasteners . . . particularly screws into soft threads (Yeah, circuit breakers do that . . . you just gotta live with some things!). Those barrier strips are brass screws into brass nuts formed out of the two-barrel, hollow rivet that makes up the conductor between screws.

  The preferred terminal strip is illustrated below. CAPTIVE studs designed to take a stack of terminals and press them together in gas-tight harmony with the universe.

 



 [img]cid:.0[/img][/b]



 



  These things are not cheap. However, you can make your own from a block of phenolic, Delrin or similar structural insulator. Press hex headed studs into undersized, counterbores and pot the back side with epoxy. Crank a nut down on TOP of the block to capture the stud.

  Now you can stack as many terminals on the studs as you like while maintaining gas-tight integrity between the stack of terminals. A metal locking nut on a quality steel screw will squish things together with a great deal more robustness than those brass screws into internally threaded, brass sleeves.  

    Bob . . .

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:45 pm Post subject: basic questions on terminal strips

 	  Quote: 	
		    These things are not cheap. 	
  http://tinyurl.com/qd233vg



    but you can make your own . . .



 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

kenryan

Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426

Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:03 pm Post subject: basic questions on terminal strips

Thanks everyone for the ideas regarding terminal strips. I will make my own using the captive stud approach as suggested by Bob. I feel much better about that approach than the terminal strip I had chosen.



On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 5:37 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    At 02:20 PM 6/19/2015, you wrote:

 I have two beacons, each beacon has a positive, negative and

 synchronization wire. I need to connect the wires from each beacon and

 then send them forward. I have chosen to accomplish this with a

 terminal strip.



 I have noticed that the terminal strips do use star washers. Should I

 use a star washer atop my ring terminals? Or maybe I should use thread

 locker on the terminal strip screw?



 Also, is it okay to stack two ring terminals on one side of the

 terminal strip (as shown in the attached photo)?



 Thanks.



   As a general rule, new designs will minimize the use of threaded fasteners . . . particularly screws into soft threads (Yeah, circuit breakers do that . . . you just gotta live with some things!). Those barrier strips are brass screws into brass nuts formed out of the two-barrel, hollow rivet that makes up the conductor between screws.

  The preferred terminal strip is illustrated below. CAPTIVE studs designed to take a stack of terminals and press them together in gas-tight harmony with the universe.

 



 [img]cid:.0[/img]



 



  These things are not cheap. However, you can make your own from a block of phenolic, Delrin or similar structural insulator. Press hex headed studs into undersized, counterbores and pot the back side with epoxy. Crank a nut down on TOP of the block to capture the stud.

  Now you can stack as many terminals on the studs as you like while maintaining gas-tight integrity between the stack of terminals. A metal locking nut on a quality steel screw will squish things together with a great deal more robustness than those brass screws into internally threaded, brass sleeves.  





  Â  Bob . . .

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:40 am Post subject: basic questions on terminal strips

At 12:01 AM 6/20/2015, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Thanks everyone for the ideas regarding terminal strips. I will make my own using the captive stud approach as suggested by Bob. I feel much better about that approach than the terminal strip I had chosen.

 	
 

  A hex headed screw is easy to 'captivate' in your

  base material. I.e. pressing a screw like this



  [img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20150620112938.073a0d68(at)aeroelectric.com.1[/img] 



   to bottom out in a 1/4" counterbore will force the

   hex-points into a good grip on the base. Experiment

   a bit . . . I might have used a 9/32" bore . . . it's

   been awhile. You don't want to break the base with

   "too much grip."



   McMaster-Carr can offer you grade-8, hex screws

   but you need to buy a pkg of 25. Any good hardware store's

   specialty screws bins may offer smaller lots of similar

   screws.  Use a washer and nut on the top side and

   some epoxy fill underneath to finish installing

   the stud.



   I have a chunk of Delrin about 0.35 x 0.77 x 8 inches

   that I'll donate to the cause if you'll photograph your

   process and finished product to share with the List.



   If finding the 'golden' hardware is problematic,

   I can pick it up on my next trip to ICT. Shoot

   me a mailing address.



 

   Bob . . .

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kenryan

Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:22 am Post subject: basic questions on terminal strips

Thanks Bob. I think I have what I need in the shop to do it about three different ways, and if not it should be easy to find right here in Anchorage.



On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 8:38 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    At 12:01 AM 6/20/2015, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Thanks everyone for the ideas regarding terminal strips. I will make my own using the captive stud approach as suggested by Bob. I feel much better about that approach than the terminal strip I had chosen.

 	
Â 

 Â A hex headed screw is easy to 'captivate' in your

 Â base material. I.e. pressing a screw like this



 Â [img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20150620112938.073a0d68(at)aeroelectric.com.1[/img] 



 Â  to bottom out in a 1/4" counterbore will force the

 Â  hex-points into a good grip on the base. Experiment

 Â  a bit . . . I might have used a 9/32" bore . . . it's

 Â  been awhile. You don't want to break the base with

 Â  "too much grip."



 Â  McMaster-Carr can offer you grade-8, hex screws

 Â  but you need to buy a pkg of 25. Any good hardware store's

 Â  specialty screws bins may offer smaller lots of similar

 Â  screws.Â  Use a washer and nut on the top side and

 Â  some epoxy fill underneath to finish installing

 Â  the stud.



 Â  I have a chunk of Delrin about 0.35 x 0.77 x 8 inches

 Â  that I'll donate to the cause if you'll photograph your

 Â  process and finished product to share with the List.



 Â  If finding the 'golden' hardware is problematic,

 Â  I can pick it up on my next trip to ICT. Shoot

 Â  me a mailing address.



 

 Â  Bob . . .

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kenryan

Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:35 am Post subject: basic questions on terminal strips

UHMW + standard AN3 hardware seems to have worked pretty well. Pics attached.



On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 9:20 AM, Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com (keninalaska(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Thanks Bob. I think I have what I need in the shop to do it about three different ways, and if not it should be easy to find right here in Anchorage.



On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 8:38 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    At 12:01 AM 6/20/2015, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Thanks everyone for the ideas regarding terminal strips. I will make my own using the captive stud approach as suggested by Bob. I feel much better about that approach than the terminal strip I had chosen.

 	
Â 

 Â A hex headed screw is easy to 'captivate' in your

 Â base material. I.e. pressing a screw like this



 Â [img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20150620112938.073a0d68(at)aeroelectric.com.1[/img] 



 Â  to bottom out in a 1/4" counterbore will force the

 Â  hex-points into a good grip on the base. Experiment

 Â  a bit . . . I might have used a 9/32" bore . . . it's

 Â  been awhile. You don't want to break the base with

 Â  "too much grip."



 Â  McMaster-Carr can offer you grade-8, hex screws

 Â  but you need to buy a pkg of 25. Any good hardware store's

 Â  specialty screws bins may offer smaller lots of similar

 Â  screws.Â  Use a washer and nut on the top side and

 Â  some epoxy fill underneath to finish installing

 Â  the stud.



 Â  I have a chunk of Delrin about 0.35 x 0.77 x 8 inches

 Â  that I'll donate to the cause if you'll photograph your

 Â  process and finished product to share with the List.



 Â  If finding the 'golden' hardware is problematic,

 Â  I can pick it up on my next trip to ICT. Shoot

 Â  me a mailing address.



 

 Â  Bob . . .

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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:28 pm Post subject: basic questions on terminal strips

kenryan

Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:02 am Post subject: basic questions on terminal strips

Pic showing temp/partial installation:



On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 7:24 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III

<nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   At 12:20 PM 6/20/2015, you wrote:



 Thanks Bob. I think I have what I need in the shop to do it about three

 different ways, and if not it should be easy to find right here in

 Anchorage.



 Take pictures . . .



   Bob . . .

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JohnInReno

Joined: 08 Sep 2007
Posts: 150

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:30 am Post subject: basic questions on terminal strips

Me too! However, you can "view source" and see the message.



john



On 6/21/2015 7:26 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote:

[quote] 



 Does anyone know what happens here?  I too often get emails from a friend

 like this where there is nothing in the body of the email.



 Bill



 --

_________________
John Morgensen
RV-9A - Born on July 3, 2013
RV4 - for sale

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:52 am Post subject: basic questions on terminal strips

At 11:00 AM 6/21/2015, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Pic showing temp/partial installation: 	


  You done good my friend . . . just remember

  that as you add wires to any post, there

  should be no intervening hardware between

  terminals . . . i.e. the terminal strip

  hardware is there to separate, support and

  put the super-mash on the stack of terminals

  . . . no hardware should be tasked with carrying

  electrons.



  In your particular case, the currents are low;

  failure to observe that process goal is not fraught

  with risk.



  I'll use your photos to do a comic-book

  for aeroelectric.com wherein we'll mention

  the time-honored recipes for success to

  manage wires from 22AWG through 000.



  Thanks for sharing.



  



 

 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1925
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: basic questions on terminal strips

I do not see a nut under the ring terminals.  Is there one?  Ring terminals need to be squashed between two nuts, not between a nut and plastic because plastic will flow over time, causing the connection to loosen.

Joe

_________________
Joe Gores

kenryan

Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:20 pm Post subject: basic questions on terminal strips

There's a washer under the terminals.

On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 5:10 PM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I do not see a nut under the ring terminals.  Is there one?  Ring terminals need to be squashed between two nuts, not between a nut and plastic because plastic will flow over time, causing the connection to loosen.

 Joe



 --------

 Joe Gores





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=443879#443879

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 5:26 am Post subject: basic questions on terminal strips

At 08:10 PM 6/21/2015, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>



 I do not see a nut under the ring terminals.  Is there one?  Ring terminals need to be squashed between two nuts, not between a nut and plastic because plastic will flow over time, causing the connection to loosen.

 Joe



 --------

 Joe Gores



 	


   Good eye . . . I had noticed that but neglected to

   articulate it.



 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 5:38 am Post subject: basic questions on terminal strips

At 08:18 PM 6/21/2015, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com>



 There's a washer under the terminals. 	


  What Joe is referencing is the fact that

  'gas tightness' in the interface between

  current carrying parts depends on the pressure

  established and maintained by either crimping

  or, in this case, squeezing between two very

  stable forces in the clamping mechanism. Force

  from a nut driven down onto the terminals is

  reacted by a plastic surface under the stack.

  The plastic is not stable under continuous

  pressure and will relieve to some degree over

  time and temperature cycles.



  In your particular application, the currents

  and duty-cycles involved do not imposed large

  stresses on those interfaces . . . and you'll

  be find with what you have. But were you crafting

  say, a distribution point for fat wires carrying

  tens of amps continuously and perhaps hundreds

  of amps cranking . . . the need to bring those

  terminals together with TWO nuts is greater.



  You can see that the base of these studs is part

  of the metal that makes up the stud. Terminals

  stacked on these studs can be brought up to

  and held at gas-tight pressures without adding

  the nut under it. With the DIY terminal block

  the bottom nut takes on this duty. You're okay

  as is for THIS application but folks reading this

  thread later need to be aware of the physics.



 [img]cid:.0[/img]



 

 

   Bob . . .

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kenryan

Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:04 am Post subject: basic questions on terminal strips

Might have to re-make it. I have doubts that the UHMW will "flow" enough (with 15 inch-pounds of torque) to loosen connections. Anybody here qualified to interpreting attached document regarding this question?



On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 5:37 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    At 08:18 PM 6/21/2015, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com (keninalaska(at)gmail.com)>



 There's a washer under the terminals. 	


 Â What Joe is referencing is the fact that

 Â 'gas tightness' in the interface between

 Â current carrying parts depends on the pressure

 Â established and maintained by either crimping

 Â or, in this case, squeezing between two very

 Â stable forces in the clamping mechanism. Force

 Â from a nut driven down onto the terminals is

 Â reacted by a plastic surface under the stack.

 Â The plastic is not stable under continuous

 Â pressure and will relieve to some degree over

 Â time and temperature cycles.



 Â In your particular application, the currents

 Â and duty-cycles involved do not imposed large

 Â stresses on those interfaces . . . and you'll

 Â be find with what you have. But were you crafting

 Â say, a distribution point for fat wires carrying

 Â tens of amps continuously and perhaps hundreds

 Â of amps cranking . . . the need to bring those

 Â terminals together with TWO nuts is greater.



 Â You can see that the base of these studs is part

 Â of the metal that makes up the stud. Terminals

 Â stacked on these studs can be brought up to

 Â and held at gas-tight pressures without adding

 Â the nut under it. With the DIY terminal block

 Â the bottom nut takes on this duty. You're okay

 Â as is for THIS application but folks reading this

 Â thread later need to be aware of the physics.



 [img]cid:.0[/img]



 

 

 Â  Bob . . .

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:35 am Post subject: basic questions on terminal strips

At 10:01 AM 6/22/2015, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Might have to re-make it. I have doubts that the UHMW will "flow" enough (with 15 inch-pounds of torque) to loosen connections. Anybody here qualified to interpreting attached document regarding this question? 	


   I wouldn't loose any sleep over it. The

   argument goes more to support standard practices

   based on the full spectrum of stresses.

   It is not terribly relevant to your application.



 

 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

Dennis Johnson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 89
Location: N. Calif.

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:20 am Post subject: Re: basic questions on terminal strips

I've had good luck using "toilet bolts" for making terminal strips.  You can get them in either stainless steel or brass.  The elongated head of the bolt is thin and fits in a slot, which is sometimes easier to fabricate than a hex shaped hole.



Here's a link to a photo:



http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-5-16-in-x-2-1-4-in-Brass-Toilet-Bolts-with-Nuts-10063X/205172289



Dennis

handainc(at)madisoncounty
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:41 am Post subject: basic questions on terminal strips

Using those, you could use a plain nut of the top side of the plastic, inset as per Bob’s example and have eequivalent to the factory unit if you can figure out some way to tighten the nut on the bolt.  Using a larger drill to allow use of thin walled socket, cinching down the nut tightly, and the anchoring it in place with epoxy should provide a very serviceable part that achieves the physics Bob references.  



M. Haught 

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jun 22, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Dennis Johnson <pinetownd(at)volcano.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 I've had good luck using "toilet bolts" for making terminal strips.  You can get them in either stainless steel or brass.  The elongated head of the bolt is thin and fits in a slot, which is sometimes easier to fabricate than a hex shaped hole.

 

 Here's a link to a photo:

 

 http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-5-16-in-x-2-1-4-in-Brass-Toilet-Bolts-with-Nuts-10063X/205172289

 

 Dennis

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=443913#443913

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