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First Fueling

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Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:35 pm Post subject: First Fueling

Gentsâ€¦

Who among you mono-builders can remember how much fuel was neededâ€¦when introduced to our beloved rotomolded fuel tanks for the first timeâ€¦in order for fuel to flow thru the selector valve (located per build manual) and thence aft to assorted pumps and filters?

Iâ€™ve put in 5 (US) gallons and can get nary a drop out of my gascolator which is mounted aft of the baggage bay and considerably lower than the main and reserve fittings on the selector valve.



(Both main and reserve fuel drains function fine, and the aircraft is sitting on itâ€™s main LG and tail wheel.)



A corollary question is: how much unusable fuel is carried aboard a mono with standard tank?



Fred



 [quote][b]

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:01 pm Post subject: First Fueling

Fred,

To answer your first question:  I donâ€™t know as it will depend on your aircraft.



BUT, you will have to add more than 5 gallons, which is just about enough to cover the hump.  You will need to add sufficient fuel to a level well above the fuel selector valve.  With a monowheel sitting on its tail, probably more than half a tank.  Once you reach a level over the valve it should fill the remainder of the line down to the pumps.  



Hope these tidbits help.



Blue skies & tailwinds,Bob BorgerEuropa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs).Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP3705 Lynchburg Dr.Corinth, TX  76208-5331Cel: 817-992-1117rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)



On Apr 17, 2015, at 7:34 PM, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)> wrote:

Gentsâ€¦

Who among you mono-builders can remember how much fuel was neededâ€¦when introduced to our beloved rotomolded fuel tanks for the first timeâ€¦in order for fuel to flow thru the selector valve (located per build manual) and thence aft to assorted pumps and filters?

Iâ€™ve put in 5 (US) gallons and can get nary a drop out of my gascolator which is mounted aft of the baggage bay and considerably lower than the main and reserve fittings on the selector valve.



(Both main and reserve fuel drains function fine, and the aircraft is sitting on itâ€™s main LG and tail wheel.)



A corollary question is: how much unusable fuel is carried aboard a mono with standard tank?



Fred



  	  Quote: 	
		  



class="">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

class="">http://forums.matronics.com

class="">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




 [quote][b]

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:23 pm Post subject: First Fueling

Thanks Bobâ€¦I'm taking baby steps w/ the volatile fluidsâ€¦BTW, here on my island, I can get ethanol-free fuel at marinasâ€¦F. 	  Quote: 	
		  On Apr 17, 2015, at 5:58 PM, Robert Borger <rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)> wrote:

Fred,

To answer your first question:  I donâ€™t know as it will depend on your aircraft.



BUT, you will have to add more than 5 gallons, which is just about enough to cover the hump.  You will need to add sufficient fuel to a level well above the fuel selector valve.  With a monowheel sitting on its tail, probably more than half a tank.  Once you reach a level over the valve it should fill the remainder of the line down to the pumps.  



Hope these tidbits help.



Blue skies & tailwinds,Bob BorgerEuropa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs).Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP3705 Lynchburg Dr.Corinth, TX  76208-5331Cel: 817-992-1117rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)



On Apr 17, 2015, at 7:34 PM, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)> wrote:

Gentsâ€¦

Who among you mono-builders can remember how much fuel was neededâ€¦when introduced to our beloved rotomolded fuel tanks for the first timeâ€¦in order for fuel to flow thru the selector valve (located per build manual) and thence aft to assorted pumps and filters?

Iâ€™ve put in 5 (US) gallons and can get nary a drop out of my gascolator which is mounted aft of the baggage bay and considerably lower than the main and reserve fittings on the selector valve.



(Both main and reserve fuel drains function fine, and the aircraft is sitting on itâ€™s main LG and tail wheel.)



A corollary question is: how much unusable fuel is carried aboard a mono with standard tank?



Fred



  	  Quote: 	
		  



class="">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

class="">http://forums.matronics.com

class="">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




  	  Quote: 	
		  



class="">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

class="">http://forums.matronics.com

class="">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




	




 [quote][b]

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:39 pm Post subject: First Fueling

Fred,

Nothing wrong with baby steps and gasoline (of any flavor).  Take it easy and careful.  



You are a lucky fellow to be able to find ethanol-free fuel.  We have a marina on Lewisville Lake, but you have to drive up in a boat to get fuel there.  I generally stick with 100LL and accept that Iâ€™ll have to change the oil and check the plugs.



Bob

On Apr 17, 2015, at 8:23 PM, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)> wrote:

Thanks Bobâ€¦I'm taking baby steps w/ the volatile fluidsâ€¦BTW, here on my island, I can get ethanol-free fuel at marinasâ€¦F.



 [quote][b]

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:17 pm Post subject: First Fueling

Fred,

 Gascolators do not prime well.  I would check for an air leak.  Andairs are well made and pull a vacuum.  The standard diaphragm pump does not pull air well enough for some brands.  If it won't prime the engine with 2.5 gallons on the ground, will it do  it in the air?

 

 

 Ground Test war story:  Ran the main dry, flipped to aux and it would not self prime without more head pressure.  Could not find a leak but the gascolator was installed slightly above tank bottom level.  With 10 gallons it would prime.  It was a trigear.   I know they have used gascolators in a/c for ever, but they should be the lowest point in the system.  That is, the bowl outside, below the belly.

 

 

 That is why I don't use them and won't install one.  To easy to screw up.  Besides, water does not condense in the tanks and filters work as well.  Most experimental takeoff accidents are fuel and engine related.  Make them flawless then test for fuel  exhaustion, on one side then switch and hopefully keep running.

 

 

 Clean your fuel lines before hooking to the engine.  A common assumption is the filter missed some dirt/ debris and the gascolators just prior to the engine caught it.  Flush and flush again.

 

 

 My two cents.

 Bud

 Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

 

 On Apr 17, 2015 8:39 PM, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> wrote: 

 Gentsâ€¦  

 Who among you mono-builders can remember how much fuel was neededâ€¦when introduced to our beloved rotomolded fuel tanks for the first timeâ€¦in order for fuel to flow thru the selector valve (located per build manual) and thence aft to assorted pumps and filters?  

 Iâ€™ve put in 5 (US) gallons and can get nary a drop out of my gascolator which is mounted aft of the baggage bay and considerably lower than the main and reserve fittings on the selector valve.

  

 (Both main and reserve fuel drains function fine, and the aircraft is sitting on itâ€™s main LG and tail wheel.)

  

 A corollary question is: how much unusable fuel is carried aboard a mono with standard tank?

  

 Fred

 

 [quote]



 	  Quote: 	
		  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

onics.com
	


ww.matronics.com/contribution



[b]

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 6:56 am Post subject: First Fueling

Budâ€¦you wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  

Gascolators do not prime well.  I would check for an air leak.  Andairs are well made and pull a vacuum.  The standard diaphragm pump does not pull air well enough for some brands. 



	


	Budâ€¦now we begin to descend down the rabbit hole of the testing and operational phase of a one-off, non-standard engine installation...recall that my engine is MPEFIâ€™edâ€¦my two (in parallel) fuel pumps are hi-pressure type and (apparently) do not have the ability to â€œsuckâ€ fuel on the input side..



 	  Quote: 	
		   If it won't prime the engine with 2.5 gallons on the ground, will it do it in the air?



	


	An excellent questionâ€¦for which prudence requires an answer â€œon the groundâ€. 	  Quote: 	
		  

Ground Test war story:  Ran the main dry, flipped to aux and it would not self prime without more head pressure.  Could not find a leak but the gascolator was installed slightly above tank bottom level.  With 10 gallons it would prime.  It was a trigear.  I know they have used gascolators in a/c for ever, but they should be the lowest point in the system.  That is, the bowl outside, below the belly.



	


	With my mono resting on the LG & tail wheel, Iâ€™m preparing a diagram with measured elevations of the various points in the fuel system starting from the tank outlet to the hi-pressure fuel pump outletsâ€¦However, by eye, it is apparent that the high point in the system is the selector-valve-main-tank-outletâ€¦(selector valve having been installed as per manual). At this stage of the game, I have concerns that if main tank runs dry to exhaustion and I move selector to reserve, will fuel continue to flow? 	  Quote: 	
		  

That is why I don't use them and won't install one.  To easy to screw up.  Besides, water does not condense in the tanks and filters work as well.  



	


	Iâ€™ve been unaware of your thoughts on gascolatorsâ€¦I confess to have one solely because of the frequent mention of them on this list and their apparent widespread use.

 	  Quote: 	
		  Most experimental takeoff accidents are fuel and engine related. 



	


	I am indeed aware of that fact.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Make them flawless then test for fuel exhaustion, on one side then switch and hopefully keep running.



	


	Exactly my intention... 	  Quote: 	
		  

Clean your fuel lines before hooking to the engine.  A common assumption is the filter missed some dirt/ debris and the gascolators just prior to the engine caught it.  Flush and flush again.



	


	And what do you recommend for a cleaning agent? 	  Quote: 	
		  

My two cents.



	


	Grossly undervaluedâ€¦your knowledge is pricelessâ€¦



	Many thanks,



	Fred



PS: A local A&P recommends adding a Facet pump to ensure that fuel gets to my hi-pressure pumpsâ€¦my engine builder recommends bleeding the lines just upstream of the hi-pressure pumpsâ€¦for the moment, Iâ€™m looking for simplicity and reliability.

 [quote][b]

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:14 am Post subject: First Fueling

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Fred,

 I recall your non standard engine, but am confident in the quality of your  testing and evaluation.

  

 I don't intend to start a gascolator war, because they are a fine piece of  equipment for tractors, metal high wing aircraft with no prime pumps and  constant water problems or aircraft with low wings and the gascolator installed  and tested with a thirty year track record like a Piper.  They are fine for  the aircraft with tank drains, and long runs of line that fill with water while  sitting.  I prefer Andair's gascolators as they work well up to high  pressure, seal well, but they are not a visible junk trap.  His filters are  built into the unit and replaceable.  On the ones we've installed in RVs,  we put them on the engine side of the aux fuel pump and have had no  problems.  His pumps are great also.

  

 Youâ€™re A&P friend is correct in having a high volume / low  pressure pump feed the engine pressure pumps.  The Facet pump indeed sucks  well.  (So does a Piersburg).  On the initial installation of fuel  injected engines, we used to have to have a header tank.  Auto and Marine  experience now shows a primer pump at the tank bottom level, will feed the  volume needed.  However, the volume of the high pressure pumps must be  satisfied and proper plumbing to prevent circular flow when one pump  fails.  Your EFI manufacturer should have that information.  As you  know, autos now have the high pressure pump in the fuel tank and run pressure  lines forward to the engine with the regulator after the fuel rail which  prevents starvation and priming problems.  Problem with our little aircraft  is the fuel selector has to be forward of the pumps because they are not  normally pressure tested and submerged fuel pumps are not possible.  You  probably have already reviewed SDS for their fuel system installation notes, but  if you haven't:  www.sdsefi.com.  They really helped us  with an RV as well as the Jason Parker engines.  Their stuff works.   See their cute little surge tank in their tech section.  Small and  affordable.

  

 Cleaning the fuel line used to be done with denatured alcohol but since  auto fuel is now filled with ethanol and excellent cleaning and plastic ruining  addatives, I use plain old ethanol laced auto fuel for my flushings.  It  does stain if you get a leak and it stinks a bit, but boy does it clean the crud  out of fuel lines that may have been sitting on the shelf for a while.  Not  uncommon to get brown fuel out of an R-14 fuel injection hose.

 Our procedure:

 Start with clean gas cans and fresh fuel always.

  

 1. We fill the tank nearly full, about 15 gallons (and watch for leaks in  the fill neck and bosses).

 2. Slosh the plane around

 3.  Lift the tail and disconnect the fuel line from the engine pump or  fuel regulator.

 4.  Look for static leaks again.

 5.  Turn on the electric boost pump (pumps about 30 gal per hour  or more).

 6.  Calibrate the fuel flow and sight gauge as appropriate.

 7.  Change 5 gallon tanks out.  

 8.  When the fuel stops flowing out of the main, switch tanks and  exhaust again.

 9.  Refuel through a Mister Funnel or similar filtering fuel  funnel.

 10. Repeat two more times.  

 Repair anything that is wet with fuel.  Use care not to overtorque  fuel clamps and use the proper type if using other than automotive hose (cheap  kind you throw away after a few years).

  

 Cheers Fred

 Bud

 [quote]   ---

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 12:45 am Post subject: First Fueling

Budâ€¦thanks so much for your additional comments and fuel system test procedureâ€¦see my indents belowâ€¦Fred 	  Quote: 	
		  On Apr 18, 2015, at 12:13 PM, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:

Fred,

I recall your non standard engine, but am confident in the quality of your testing and evaluation.

	


		Your confidence is much appreciated. 	  Quote: 	
		   

I don't intend to start a gascolator war, because they are a fine piece of equipment for tractors, metal high wing aircraft with no prime pumps and constant water problems or aircraft with low wings and the gascolator installed and tested with a thirty year track record like a Piper.  They are fine for the aircraft with tank drains, and long runs of line that fill with water while sitting.  I prefer Andair's gascolators as they work well up to high pressure, seal well, but they are not a visible junk trap.  His filters are built into the unit and replaceable.  On the ones we've installed in RVs, we put them on the engine side of the aux fuel pump and have had no problems.  His pumps are great also.

 

Youâ€™re A&P friend is correct in having a high volume / low pressure pump feed the engine pressure pumps.  The Facet pump indeed sucks well.  (So does a Piersburg).  On the initial installation of fuel injected engines, we used to have to have a header tank.  Auto and Marine experience now shows a primer pump at the tank bottom level, will feed the volume needed.  However, the volume of the high pressure pumps must be satisfied and proper plumbing to prevent circular flow when one pump fails.  Your EFI manufacturer should have that information.  

	


		The 2 hi-pressure EFI pumps I have each have internal check valves which I would rely on to prevent circular flow when one pump fails or is turned offâ€¦I am checking their flow rates so I can be sure I order a Facet w/ sufficient flow rate.

 	  Quote: 	
		  As you know, autos now have the high pressure pump in the fuel tank and run pressure lines forward to the engine with the regulator after the fuel rail which prevents starvation and priming problems.  Problem with our little aircraft is the fuel selector has to be forward of the pumps because they are not normally pressure tested and submerged fuel pumps are not possible.  You probably have already reviewed SDS for their fuel system installation notes, but if you haven't:  www.sdsefi.com.  They really helped us with an RV as well as the Jason Parker engines.  Their stuff works.  See their cute little surge tank in their tech section.  Small and affordable.

	


		I had NOT been aware of their fuel installation notesâ€¦thanks for the referenceâ€¦very helpful stuff. 	  Quote: 	
		   

Cleaning the fuel line used to be done with denatured alcohol but since auto fuel is now filled with ethanol and excellent cleaning and plastic ruining addatives, I use plain old ethanol laced auto fuel for my flushings. 

	


		Not knowing this, I put 15 gallons of ethanol-free gasoline in the tankâ€¦paid a hefty premium over car gas to bootâ€¦oh wellâ€¦

 	  Quote: 	
		   It does stain if you get a leak and it stinks a bit, but boy does it clean the crud out of fuel lines that may have been sitting on the shelf for a while.  Not uncommon to get brown fuel out of an R-14 fuel injection hose.

	


		My hose is SAE J30 R9 fuel injection hose w/ the blue Teflon linerâ€¦it SEEMED to be clean as a whistle when I installed it.

 	  Quote: 	
		  Our procedure:

Start with clean gas cans and fresh fuel always.

 

1. We fill the tank nearly full, about 15 gallons (and watch for leaks in the fill neck and bosses).

2. Slosh the plane around

3.  Lift the tail and disconnect the fuel line from the engine pump or fuel regulator.

4.  Look for static leaks again.

5.  Turn on the electric boost pump (pumps about 30 gal per hour or more).

6.  Calibrate the fuel flow and sight gauge as appropriate.

7.  Change 5 gallon tanks out.  

8.  When the fuel stops flowing out of the main, switch tanks and exhaust again.

9.  Refuel through a Mister Funnel or similar filtering fuel funnel.

10. Repeat two more times.  

Repair anything that is wet with fuel.  Use care not to overtorque fuel clamps and use the proper type if using other than automotive hose (cheap kind you throw away after a few years).

	


		Great procedureâ€¦a keeperâ€¦



		Wish I could fly down to Sun â€™N Fun but Iâ€™m wanting to push ahead here



		Best to everyone who shows upâ€¦BTW, had a GREAT ride w/ Kevin Klinefelter two weeks ago when he demonstrated his high-flying 914 above the High Sierras.



		Fred



		[quote] 

Cheers Fred

Bud

[quote]---

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:36 am Post subject: First Fueling

A few days ago I posted of my frustrations at being unable to get fuel to my MPEFI engine, notwithstanding dual parallel hi-pressure fuel pumps, requisite filters, a gascolator, proper venting, etc. I feared I was headed down the dark, winding rabbit hole implicit with any one-off, unique engine installation.



After much testing and head scratching, I finally found that the fuel pumpsâ€¦â€accessibleâ€ in the context of experimental aircraft, but nonetheless more challenging to remove than anticipatedâ€¦installed by yours trulyâ€¦had their polarity reversedâ€¦bingo.



â€¦no need to spell out the lesson hereâ€¦



w/ much chagrin,



Fred

kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:14 pm Post subject: First Fueling

VoilÃ  Fred



Kingsley



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