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M-14B installation in CJ

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cjaviator

Joined: 20 Aug 2014
Posts: 29
Location: New Zealand

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 10:31 pm Post subject: M-14B installation in CJ

Hi all...I have talked to a few of you on the list about installing the M-14B in a CJ off and on for a while now.

We recently had a CJ without an engine so took the opportunity to install the M-14 to see for ourselves what the issues were.

All went well except that as advised, the mags do hit on the RH engine stay due to the thicker supercharger section (this can also be seen in that the distance between the compressor and oil tank is about half of the HS-6 installation). We have not checked the LH mag as yet.

Interestingly, there is no way the standard M-14B magneto will fit, but the Chinese mag is a little less bulky and could probably be 'made' to fit.

The standard Chinese cowl gill set up bolts straight on too.

Other than that the only other complication was one of the oil connections but this will be easily resolved.

I know there are a few aircraft out there flying with the M-14B and I am wondering how you got around the magneto issue?

You may wonder why we are bothering to progress this installation... well, we have an overhauled engine here going to waste and it just seems like a good idea so we would love to make use of it with a minimum of fuss (if that is ever possible in aviation!)

Regards, Jay

New Zealand



  [quote][b]

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 1:08 am Post subject: M-14B installation in CJ

We bought three new (that is unused but old stock) M 14B engines; all three have now been sold, one for a Yak 52 and two for CJ6. One CJ6 engine has been delivered and we are currently working on the second. All customers wanted high power engines, which meant the PF supercharger conversion, which we couldn't put into the "B" supercharger. Certainly it is technically easy, but we would have had to have designed completely new gears and shafts for the accessory gearbox which simply would not be worth it for a few engines.

 

Also we were concerned about the issue of the magneto against the engine mounting tube (although we didn't have the airframe and engine together, so had to estimate the position of the magneto), and the combination of these two factors made us decide to use an M 14 P supercharger and accessory case for all three engines.

 

Then, all three customers want to use three blade propellers â€“ of course needed with around 430 hp â€“ and there is no suitable aerobatic propeller that would fit onto the splined output shaft of the "B", so all three engines will be fitted with M 14 P gearboxes.

 

Separately there is a very important issue that the "B" does not have inverted oil, and we had to do a lot of work to redesign the internal oil system to ensure that the engines would deliver and scavenge oil in any attitude.

 

Generally, the "B" is an excellent engine â€“ it was designed to have a longer life than the "P" and you can see that a variety of the internal components have been slightly modified and improved. In passing, in standard form, it has slightly higher compression ratio, and so gives slightly more power than a "P", although some of the literature rates it at a lower power, but only because it was designed for a small utility aircraft, and therefore running at lower rpm.

 

Richard Goode Aerobatics

Rhodds Farm

Lyonshall

Hereford

HR5 3LW

 

Tel:Â  +44 (0) 1544 340120

Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129

www.russianaeros.com

 

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jay McIntyre

Sent: 17 May 2015 07:30

To: yak list

Subject: M-14B installation in CJ



 

Hi all...

I have talked to a few of you on the list about installing the M-14B in a CJ off and on for a while now.



 



We recently had a CJ without an engine so took the opportunity to install the M-14 to see for ourselves what the issues were.



All went well except that as advised, the mags do hit on the RH engine stay due to the thicker supercharger section (this can also be seen in that the distance between the compressor and oil tank is about half of the HS-6 installation). We have not checked the LH mag as yet.



Interestingly, there is no way the standard M-14B magneto will fit, but the Chinese mag is a little less bulky and could probably be 'made' to fit.



The standard Chinese cowl gill set up bolts straight on too.



Other than that the only other complication was one of the oil connections but this will be easily resolved.



 



I know there are a few aircraft out there flying with the M-14B and I am wondering how you got around the magneto issue?



 



You may wonder why we are bothering to progress this installation... well, we have an overhauled engine here going to waste and it just seems like a good idea so we would love to make use of it with a minimum of fuss (if that is ever possible in aviation!)



 



Regards, Jay



New Zealand



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cjaviator

Joined: 20 Aug 2014
Posts: 29
Location: New Zealand

Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 1:45 am Post subject: Re: M-14B installation in CJ

Thanks Richard....

We are not overly concerned about getting as much power as possible so are quite happy to work with the current engine setup if it can be made to work.

Likewise, inverted oil is not important, having never needed/wanted it for 20 years of CJ operations.

Likewise, we would be intending to use the standard CJ prop and see how it goes, limiting RPM if necessary.

So, at this stage it would seem the only real issue would be getting adequate magneto-mount clearance. Is there any chance that the Yak-52/M-14P mount would have different geometry (I don't imagine so given the way the M-14P bolts 'straight in'.

(The ring that came on the M-14B is significantly different in the location of the pick up points for the mounting legs, so much so that all 4 would have to be remade to fit)

We could relieve the magneto casing in the area of the mount but I don't know how successful this would be, let alone being a bit 'gash'!



Jay

dave(at)davelaird.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 7:31 am Post subject: M-14B installation in CJ

Perhaps using the Barrett Electronic Ignition would solve your mag clearance problem.



Sent from my iPhone.



 	  Quote: 	
		   On May 18, 2015, at 4:45 AM, cjaviator <cjaviator(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Thanks Richard....

 We are not overly concerned about getting as much power as possible so are quite happy to work with the current engine setup if it can be made to work.

 Likewise, inverted oil is not important, having never needed/wanted it for 20 years of CJ operations.

 Likewise, we would be intending to use the standard CJ prop and see how it goes, limiting RPM if necessary.

 So, at this stage it would seem the only real issue would be getting adequate magneto-mount clearance. Is there any chance that the Yak-52/M-14P mount would have different geometry (I don't imagine so given the way the M-14P bolts 'straight in'.

 (The ring that came on the M-14B is significantly different in the location of the pick up points for the mounting legs, so much so that all 4 would have to be remade to fit)

 We could relieve the magneto casing in the area of the mount but I don't know how successful this would be, let alone being a bit 'gash'!

 

 Jay

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442222#442222

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 8:14 am Post subject: M-14B installation in CJ

A very good suggestion and an excellent product, although it will add a fair

amount to the installation cost.



Richard Goode Aerobatics

Rhodds Farm

Lyonshall

Hereford

HR5 3LW



Tel:  +44 (0) 1544 340120

Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129

www.russianaeros.com

--

cjaviator

Joined: 20 Aug 2014
Posts: 29
Location: New Zealand

Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: M-14B installation in CJ

Yes.... George also suggested that so am looking into it.

The cost is actually not too much of a concern in this instance as the engine cost the owner less than the ignition...

Will advise in due course.



Thanks to all, Jay

JL2A

Joined: 07 Apr 2015
Posts: 113
Location: Australia

Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: M-14B installation in CJ

Hi Richard, you mention there is no three blade (aerobatic) propeller that would fit onto the spine shaft of M14B, I have 2 of the 3 JL2A propellers in existence, which fit onto the HS6 - I'm going to assume it's the same spline as the M14B?



We have investigated getting another JL2A for someone else in Australia but the factory only ever made 3, apparently.



However, they did mention that if we ordered five (5!) that they would be willing to build more. 



Price at a guess would be around US$12k each including backing plate and spinner. Not sure of the cost of a M14P gearbox + install but thought it may be an option for your customers with the B engines.



If someone knew the genesis of the JL2A I'd love to know! Was it to fit on the HS6D engine of around 400hp? But then why the splined shaft.. or is that what the JL2B was for (flange fitting). 



Cheers



Anatole

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 9:25 pm Post subject: M-14B installation in CJ

Yes, I have heard of the prop and thought someone might mention it! This was

a reason that I specifically mentioned "aerobatic" since I understand it to

be really quite heavy, and probably not suitable for anything more than

gentle aerobatics. I have been told that the splined shaft on the AI 14 and

HS-6 engines it is not a strong as the shaft on the M 14 P.



Richard Goode Aerobatics

Rhodds Farm

Lyonshall

Hereford

HR5 3LW



Tel:  +44 (0) 1544 340120

Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129

www.russianaeros.com



--

JL2A

Joined: 07 Apr 2015
Posts: 113
Location: Australia

Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 10:16 pm Post subject: Re: M-14B installation in CJ

I thought that's why you put 'aerobatic' there! We have just removed a JL2A after 1,000 hours of nearly all aerobatic flight. Nothing fancy - just the usual CJ stuff, somewhere around 2500 loops, hammerheads, cubans etc. Nothing untoward to report.



Richard, I'm guessing you mean more hardcore aerobatics if installed on a more capable aerobatic aircraft, Yak or similar?



Jay, theoretically this prop will absorb over 500hp so might be worth considering if you wanted to wind your M14B up a notch!?



But you'd need to get 4 :/

GeorgeCoy

Joined: 02 Dec 2010
Posts: 310

Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 4:26 am Post subject: M-14B installation in CJ

I did the test flights for the Hartzell metal 3 blade propeller many

years ago on a Yak-52. They has a bevy of strain gages on the blades and hub

and an engineer in the back seat with data recording equipment. The testing

took 3 days and included things like "gas Loading", spins and other basic

aerobatic maneuvers. They also instrumented an MT prop and gathered the data

on it as well.  The most notable difference was the increased "Polar

Moment". The engine did not respond as quickly to power reductions. 

	Anyway it made an excellent propeller for the Murphy Moose guys and

the increase polar moment is useful when maneuvering on floats. 

George Coy

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 6:40 pm Post subject: M-14B installation in CJ

Ah "Polar Moment".   Would someone give this old pilot a very  simple explanation of "polar moment".  Every time an engineer type has  tried to explain this to me, he's probably notice a blank glazed look in my  eyes.  Duh.  This also came up years ago when one of our engineer  types tried to warn me about putting all my ballast in the tail of my CJ.   That ended when Bushi said it did not matter in the case of the CJ.  That  was good enough for me at the time, but "polar moment" is still past  comprehension for me.

  

 Some one care to elucidate before I died a diminished man?

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  In a message dated 5/22/2015 8:26:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  george.coy(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Yak-List message posted by: "George S. Coy"    <george.coy(at)gmail.com>



    I did the test flights for    the Hartzell metal 3 blade propeller many

years ago on a Yak-52. They has a    bevy of strain gages on the blades and hub

and an engineer in the back seat    with data recording equipment. The testing

took 3 days and included things    like "gas Loading", spins and other basic

aerobatic maneuvers. They also    instrumented an MT prop and gathered the data

on it as well.  The most    notable difference was the increased "Polar

Moment". The engine did not    respond as quickly to power reductions. 

    Anyway it made an    excellent propeller for the Murphy Moose guys and

the increase polar moment    is useful when maneuvering on floats. 

George  ========================  e  ties  Day  ================================================               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  ================================================             - List Contribution Web Site  sp;                             ===================================================



	


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