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Alternator with no battery?

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donjohnston

Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 231

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:22 am Post subject: Alternator with no battery?

Does anyone know what the impact of a loss of battery output (wire coming loose, solenoid failing, battery falling out of the plane, being stolen in flight by aliens, etc.) on the output of the alternator (with engine running at cruise power)?



It would seem to me that if the load is less than the output of the alternator, it should continue to put out power as long as the engine is running. 



But I recall (years ago) that a friend was driving home from a trip at night and his battery had some type of failure. He said that it took a couple hours but eventually his headlights were so dim that he had to stop until the battery could be replaced.

Bob McC

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 258
Location: Toronto, ON

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:06 am Post subject: Alternator with no battery?

That sounds a lot more like an alternator failure than a battery failure. When the alternator quit, or was no longer able to supply all the load, the battery took over the load until it was drained to a level insufficient to maintain sufficient voltage to power the vehicle and it stopped. A new battery would not "solve" this problem without some restoration or repair being done to the charging system as well.



Some running alternators will maintain system loads without a battery, but should the alternator be "stalled" with heavy loads it may or may not restart on load reduction depending on the particular components in question.



Bob McC



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Alternator with no battery?

 From: don(at)velocity-xl.com

 Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 02:22:48 -0700

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "donjohnston" <don(at)velocity-xl.com>

 

 Does anyone know what the impact of a loss of battery output (wire coming loose, solenoid failing, battery falling out of the plane, being stolen in flight by aliens, etc.) on the output of the alternator (with engine running at cruise power)?

 

 It would seem to me that if the load is less than the output of the alternator, it should continue to put out power as long as the engine is running. 

 

 But I recall (years ago) that a friend was driving home from a trip at night and his battery had some type of failure. He said that it took a couple hours but eventually his headlights were so dim that he had to stop until the battery could be replaced.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442980#442980

 

========================

_________________
Bob McC
Falco #908
(just starting)

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1921
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:13 am Post subject: Re: Alternator with no battery?

Many alternators will keep generating when the battery is disconnected.  Your friend's experience sounds more like an alternator failure than a battery failure.

Joe

_________________
Joe Gores

donjohnston

Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 231

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator with no battery?

Sigh...  Let me try this again:



Does anyone know what the impact of a loss of battery output (wire coming loose, solenoid failing, battery falling out of the plane, being stolen in flight by aliens, etc.) on the output of the alternator (with engine running at cruise power)? 



It would seem to me that if the load is less than the output of the alternator, it should continue to put out power as long as the engine is running.

wrmaxwell(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:10 pm Post subject: Alternator with no battery?

I had a friend, a         fellow ham radio operator, who experienced one connection to the         battery in his Mitsubishi Express van some years ago. The         alternator did its stuff, trying to re-establish 14 volts or so         at the battery terminal - and fried much of the onboard         electronics, including his radio transceiver, in the process.

         

         Bill

       

     On 5/06/2015 12:37 PM, donjohnston       wrote:

     

     [quote]        	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "donjohnston" <don(at)velocity-xl.com> (don(at)velocity-xl.com)



Sigh...  Let me try this again:



Does anyone know what the impact of a loss of battery output (wire coming loose, solenoid failing, battery falling out of the plane, being stolen in flight by aliens, etc.) on the output of the alternator (with engine running at cruise power)? 



It would seem to me that if the load is less than the output of the alternator, it should continue to put out power as long as the engine is running.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=443059#443059



	
     [b]

jluckey(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:10 pm Post subject: Alternator with no battery?

Bill,

There is a commonly held belief that running an alternator without a battery can be risky because voltage regulation can be problematic.  The battery acts as a big voltage stabilizer which allows the regulator to work properly.  If the battery is somehow disconnected then that stabilization disappears and the regulator may not be able to handle it, causing a voltage run-away situation.

Once upon a time, I had to clean-up after one of these events.  It was a 12-volt system on a boat.  Someone had turned-off the main battery switch while the engine was running and the buss voltage went way above the normal 14 volts.  The event took-out a VHF radio, a radar, and an automotive stereo.  



Bill Maxwell's reply above describes a similar scenario in a car.



Anecdoteally...

BobN has suggested that some aircraft (I think he mentioned a Bonanza or Baron) can operate in an alternator-only, no-battery-in-the-circuit mode, but I don't have any knowledge of this.  Perhaps the aircraft in question has a very exotic regulator.  BobN can speak to this better than I.

I have had auto mechanics tell me that if you disconnect the battery while the engine is running - DON'T DO THAT!  But if you do, it will void the warranty on the electronic components of the vehicle.





Design Notes:

I  think of the battery/alternator system as being symbiotic.  The  alternator cannot make electricity without a little initial help from  the battery and the battery acts as a voltage stabilizing force when  high-current events occur.  And, of course, batteries cannot sustain  loads indefinitely by themselves.  They work together as a team.



Whenever I design an electrical system, I make it so that if you open the battery contactor, the circuit also turns-off the alternator, so that you cannot deliberately take the battery out of the circuit with the alternator on.  I consider an alternator running with no battery in the circuit to be an invalid state.



You will notice that the old red Cessna master/alternator rocker switch does exactly the same thing.  It allows the pilot to turn the alternator field on and off independent of the battery master but when you turn-off the master it turns-off the alternator field thru the mechanical interlock built into the switch.



Now to your question - What happens if the battery somehow gets disconnected in flight due to master contactor failure, wire failure, aliens, etc?



I see two possibilities:

1. The regulator keeps on regulating and buss voltage remains stable.

2. The reguator can no longer keep the voltage stable and buss voltage goes up.  If you have over-voltage protection, it trips and keeps your avionics from being fried but leaves you without power. (unless you have some kind of backup power source)



How your particular system will respond is anybody's guess.  If you have over-voltage protection, you could test it with little risk to your avionics??? (preferable on the ground 





There was discussion a while back here on the List about testing some of these hypotheses, but that would take some hefty test fixtures and some effort.  I would like to play on that team if anyone is interested in a team effort.





-JeffL

  



     On Thursday, June 4, 2015 8:18 PM, Bill Maxwell <wrmaxwell(at)bigpond.com> wrote:

  

  



                     I had a friend, a         fellow ham radio operator, who experienced one connection to the         battery in his Mitsubishi Express van some years ago. The         alternator did its stuff, trying to re-establish 14 volts or so         at the battery terminal - and fried much of the onboard         electronics, including his radio transceiver, in the process.

         

         Bill

       

     On 5/06/2015 12:37 PM, donjohnston       wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		          	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "donjohnston" <don(at)velocity-xl.com> (don(at)velocity-xl.com)



Sigh...  Let me try this again:



Does anyone know what the impact of a loss of battery output (wire coming loose, solenoid failing, battery falling out of the plane, being stolen in flight by aliens, etc.) on the output of the alternator (with engine running at cruise power)? 



It would seem to me that if the load is less than the output of the alternator, it should continue to put out power as long as the engine is running.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=443059#443059



	
     



ronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

ronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

dlj04(at)josephson.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:52 pm Post subject: Alternator with no battery?

The OP asked not for analysis of the reported automotive failure, but



 	  Quote: 	
		   Does anyone know what the impact of a loss of battery output (wire coming loose,

 solenoid failing, battery falling out of the plane, being stolen in flight by

 aliens, etc.) on the output of the alternator (with engine running at cruise

 power)?


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   It would seem to me that if the load is less than the output of the alternator,

 it should continue to put out power as long as the engine is running.


	


In most cases it would, but there are other problems due to the high ripple component of some alternators Rotax for instance recommends a 22,000 uF capacitor specifically to smooth the ripple from their PM alternator in case the battery is not functioning. Homebuilders using low impedance capacitors with heavy screw terminals are on the right track. Some LSA manufacturers use tiny caps with thin wires, not a good recipe if you really want to get pulses of current at the full alternator rating into and out of the capacitor.

yellowduckduo(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:22 am Post subject: Alternator with no battery?

An open battery contactor with an external regulator that is sensing 

voltage at the battery is going to go high voltage and be expensive.



Different situation wih the sense wire on the alternator side of the 

contactor or an internal regulator. No guarantees but I have seen those 

continue to function fine when a flooded cell battery went open circuit.



Ken

donjohnston

Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 231

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:40 am Post subject: Re: Alternator with no battery?

 	  dlj04(at)josephson.com wrote: 	
		  The OP asked not for analysis of the reported automotive failure, but



 	  Quote: 	
		   Does anyone know what the impact of a loss of battery output 	
	




A thousand "thank you's" kind sir!

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:04 am Post subject: Alternator with no battery?

Anecdoteally...



 BobN has suggested that some aircraft (I think he mentioned a Bonanza or Baron) can operate in an alternator-only, no-battery-in-the-circuit mode, but I don't have any knowledge of this.  Perhaps the aircraft in question has a very exotic regulator.  BobN can speak to this better than I.



   Actually, I designed several regulators

   for Beech wherein the a requirement in the

   RFQ was that the regulator, when paired with

   the Bonanza and Baron alternators of the time,

   would come alive self-excited . . . and run

   self excited with no battery on line.



   This was my first, second and third

   regulator designs . . . had no idea if

   anything 'special' was needed. As it

   turn out, nothing really special. What

   was NOT spec'd was the recovery profile

   from a large load change . . . especially

   a load dump. The overshoot would trip

   the ov protection . . . but the transient

   was still inside DO-160 qualification

   levels.



   What I discovered then was that the alternator

   output was stable but subject to pretty

   big, transient swings of voltage for large

   changes in load. Like turning a 100+

   watt landing light on/off . . . or perhaps

   cycling an electrically driven, landing

   gear pump.



   Loss of battery in a stable load configuration

   would probably go unnoticed and represent

   no threat to system hardware. If the hardware

   is DO-160 qualified, then transients of 20 volts

   for one second and 40 volts for 100 milliseconds

   are tolerated. It's the no-battery scenario

   that drove selection of the test requirements

   spelled out in DO-160. See



  http://tinyurl.com/ybhvxal



 

   I'll do some playing with no-battery

   systems then next time I get on the bench.



 



 I have had auto mechanics tell me that if you disconnect the battery while the engine is running - DON'T DO THAT!  But if you do, it will void the warranty on the electronic components of the vehicle.



   Yeah . . . the same physics applies here.

   In AUTOMOTIVE parlance, a "load dump" is

   battery disconnect while alternator is under

   heavy load . . . and the BATTERY is a substantial

   part of that load. i.e. the battery is badly

   discharged and the alternator is working hard

   to replace stored energy. This generates the

   same scenario as operating an airplane, alternator

   only and turning off some heavy load.



   Don't know about that 'void the warranty' thingy,

   not sure how anyone would KNOW that it was a

   deliberate disconnection. No doubt, some

   dealerships are inclined to behaviors not

   unlike some avionics techs of days gone by:

   "Gee, I think a spike got it".



   Most OEM equipment in cars is designed with

   goals equal to or greater than DO160. I've

   seen some specs for things like heated seat

   controllers. An OEM brought one out to the BEECH

   EMC building for testing services. The requirements

   document from GM was about 1/2" thick! 



 

 You will notice that the old red Cessna master/alternator rocker switch does exactly the same thing.  It allows the pilot to turn the alternator field on and off independent of the battery master but when you turn-off the master it turns-off the alternator field thru the mechanical interlock built into the switch.



   I was at Cessna when the split-rocker master switch

   was birthed. The functionality of the split-rocker

   master has been emulated in most of the Z-figures



  http://tinyurl.com/kdqwahq



   This was a time when not all appliances were

   vetted to DO-160 input voltage conditions . . .

   and the alternators could not be counted on

   to self-excite. Airplanes we delivered the

   year before with generators would start up and

   run very happily generator only. To this day,

   so will Beechjets and Hawkers. This was very

   EARLY in the switch from generators to alternators in

   aircraft and we were certainly not designers

   of engine drive power sources. So the split

   rocker was a hedge against having to re-educate

   pilots who knew less than we did!



 



 Now to your question - What happens if the battery somehow gets disconnected in flight due to master contactor failure, wire failure, aliens, etc?



 I see two possibilities:

 1. The regulator keeps on regulating and buss voltage remains stable.



   True 99% of the time



 

 2. The reguator can no longer keep the voltage stable and buss voltage goes up.  If you have over-voltage protection, it trips and keeps your avionics from being fried but leaves you without power. (unless you have some kind of backup power source)



    No



 

 How your particular system will respond is anybody's guess.  If you have over-voltage protection, you could test it with little risk to your avionics??? (preferable on the ground 



 

   It's not a guess. The physics is well known.



 

 There was discussion a while back here on the List about testing some of these hypotheses, but that would take some hefty test fixtures and some effort.  I would like to play on that team if anyone is interested in a team effort.



   I've got some work to do at B&C this year and

   I'm going to rebuilt their alternator test stand

   with modern instrumentation and loads. I'll be

   working on some products that will be tested for

   these conditions.



   I don't think we're going to learn anything new

   but we can probably put some sense of scale and

   order on the anecdotal tales based on a few

   nuggets of physical fact and too little data

   on circumstance . . . like that 'shorted battery'

   thing in the NTSB report. I can assure you that

   far too little is known about what brought that

   airplane down. I have no foundation to argue about

   the shorted battery . . . but I'm exceedingly

   skeptical that battery failure was root cause

   or even a major contributor. This was an automotive

   conversion engine and the fact that the builder

   had two batteries wired in parallel in the first

   place raises some questions as to design goals

   and understanding of the physics. A short in

   one of two paralleled batteries would cause so

   anomalous system readings but it doesn't bring

   down the bus. Something else was going on.

   



 

   Bob . . .     [quote][b]

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1921
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:09 am Post subject: Re: Alternator with no battery?

 	  Quote: 	
		  A short in one of two paralleled batteries would cause so anomalous system readings

but it doesn't bring down the bus. Something else was going on. 	


Bob, this is very interesting.  Can you explain the physics that apply when two batteries are connected in parallel and one of them shorts internally?  I had always assumed that a low voltage on one battery would drag down the voltage of a parallel battery.  Pilots who fly aircraft with two batteries need to know what symptoms will be and what action to take, if any.

Thanks, Joe

_________________
Joe Gores

jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:02 am Post subject: Alternator with no battery?

Sounds like another good case for an OVM. 



 



On Jun 5, 2015, at 05:02, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

[quote]  Anecdoteally...



 BobN has suggested that some aircraft (I think he mentioned a Bonanza or Baron) can operate in an alternator-only, no-battery-in-the-circuit mode, but I don't have any knowledge of this.  Perhaps the aircraft in question has a very exotic regulator.  BobN can speak to this better than I.



   Actually, I designed several regulators

   for Beech wherein the a requirement in the

   RFQ was that the regulator, when paired with

   the Bonanza and Baron alternators of the time,

   would come alive self-excited . . . and run

   self excited with no battery on line.



   This was my first, second and third

   regulator designs . . . had no idea if

   anything 'special' was needed. As it

   turn out, nothing really special. What

   was NOT spec'd was the recovery profile

   from a large load change . . . especially

   a load dump. The overshoot would trip

   the ov protection . . . but the transient

   was still inside DO-160 qualification

   levels.



   What I discovered then was that the alternator

   output was stable but subject to pretty

   big, transient swings of voltage for large

   changes in load. Like turning a 100+

   watt landing light on/off . . . or perhaps

   cycling an electrically driven, landing

   gear pump.



   Loss of battery in a stable load configuration

   would probably go unnoticed and represent

   no threat to system hardware. If the hardware

   is DO-160 qualified, then transients of 20 volts

   for one second and 40 volts for 100 milliseconds

   are tolerated. It's the no-battery scenario

   that drove selection of the test requirements

   spelled out in DO-160. See



  http://tinyurl.com/ybhvxal



 

   I'll do some playing with no-battery

   systems then next time I get on the bench.



 



 I have had auto mechanics tell me that if you disconnect the battery while the engine is running - DON'T DO THAT!  But if you do, it will void the warranty on the electronic components of the vehicle.



   Yeah . . . the same physics applies here.

   In AUTOMOTIVE parlance, a "load dump" is

   battery disconnect while alternator is under

   heavy load . . . and the BATTERY is a substantial

   part of that load. i.e. the battery is badly

   discharged and the alternator is working hard

   to replace stored energy. This generates the

   same scenario as operating an airplane, alternator

   only and turning off some heavy load.



   Don't know about that 'void the warranty' thingy,

   not sure how anyone would KNOW that it was a

   deliberate disconnection. No doubt, some

   dealerships are inclined to behaviors not

   unlike some avionics techs of days gone by:

   "Gee, I think a spike got it".



   Most OEM equipment in cars is designed with

   goals equal to or greater than DO160. I've

   seen some specs for things like heated seat

   controllers. An OEM brought one out to the BEECH

   EMC building for testing services. The requirements

   document from GM was about 1/2" thick! 



 

 You will notice that the old red Cessna master/alternator rocker switch does exactly the same thing.  It allows the pilot to turn the alternator field on and off independent of the battery master but when you turn-off the master it turns-off the alternator field thru the mechanical interlock built into the switch.



   I was at Cessna when the split-rocker master switch

   was birthed. The functionality of the split-rocker

   master has been emulated in most of the Z-figures



  http://tinyurl.com/kdqwahq



   This was a time when not all appliances were

   vetted to DO-160 input voltage conditions . . .

   and the alternators could not be counted on

   to self-excite. Airplanes we delivered the

   year before with generators would start up and

   run very happily generator only. To this day,

   so will Beechjets and Hawkers. This was very

   EARLY in the switch from generators to alternators in

   aircraft and we were certainly not designers

   of engine drive power sources. So the split

   rocker was a hedge against having to re-educate

   pilots who knew less than we did!



 



 Now to your question - What happens if the battery somehow gets disconnected in flight due to master contactor failure, wire failure, aliens, etc?



 I see two possibilities:

 1. The regulator keeps on regulating and buss voltage remains stable.



   True 99% of the time



 

 2. The reguator can no longer keep the voltage stable and buss voltage goes up.  If you have over-voltage protection, it trips and keeps your avionics from being fried but leaves you without power. (unless you have some kind of backup power source)



    No



 

 How your particular system will respond is anybody's guess.  If you have over-voltage protection, you could test it with little risk to your avionics??? (preferable on the ground 



 

   It's not a guess. The physics is well known.



 

 There was discussion a while back here on the List about testing some of these hypotheses, but that would take some hefty test fixtures and some effort.  I would like to play on that team if anyone is interested in a team effort.



   I've got some work to do at B&C this year and

   I'm going to rebuilt their alternator test stand

   with modern instrumentation and loads. I'll be

   working on some products that will be tested for

   these conditions.



   I don't think we're going to learn anything new

   but we can probably put some sense of scale and

   order on the anecdotal tales based on a few

   nuggets of physical fact and too little data

   on circumstance . . . like that 'shorted battery'

   thing in the NTSB report. I can assure you that

   far too little is known about what brought that

   airplane down. I have no foundation to argue about

   the shorted battery . . . but I'm exceedingly

   skeptical that battery failure was root cause

   or even a major contributor. This was an automotive

   conversion engine and the fact that the builder

   had two batteries wired in parallel in the first

   place raises some questions as to design goals

   and understanding of the physics. A short in

   one of two paralleled batteries would cause so

   anomalous system readings but it doesn't bring

   down the bus. Something else was going on.

   



 

   Bob . . .      	  Quote: 	
		  

	


[b]

donjohnston

Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 231

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: Alternator with no battery?

This is very interesting.  Thanks to everyone for participating. 



So is it safe to say that the battery is providing a type of surge suppression (or power leveling or fluctuation dampening) function in this circuit?



And if it's correct that the absence of the battery could cause an over voltage situation, is there a way to mitigate that? Or is that scenario so unlikely that it's not worth protecting against?

dlj04(at)josephson.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:24 am Post subject: Alternator with no battery?

On 6/6/15 12:00 AM, AeroElectric-List Digest Server wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Time: 01:53:19 PM PST US

 Subject: Re: Alternator with no battery?

 From: "donjohnston" <don(at)velocity-xl.com>

 This is very interesting.  Thanks to everyone for participating.

 So is it safe to say that the battery is providing a type of surge suppression

 (or power leveling or fluctuation dampening) function in this circuit?

Yes.

 	  Quote: 	

 And if it's correct that the absence of the battery could cause an over voltage

 situation, is there a way to mitigate that? Or is that scenario so unlikely that

 it's not worth protecting against?

There is a way to mitigate that, if you want. An overvoltage protection 

circuit can take a runaway alternator/regulator offline in the case of 

an open battery. This is probably a less likely possibility at least for 

lead-acid batteries than the possibility of the OVP taking the 

alternator offline at inconvenient times for other reasons. Systems 

engineering is based on understanding and weighing all of the 

foreseeable consequences -- more protection does not necessarily equate 

to fewer failure experiences. As Bob has explained in the past, modern 

aircraft loads are much more tolerant of overvoltage conditions than was 

the case years ago.

Having had such an experience in my Mooney when the regulator ground 

wire came loose, I can report that it was preferable to manually shed 

loads known to be voltage-sensitive (no DME for you today!), add 

additional loads like pitot heat and landing lights to bring the voltage 

down. You can manage the situation, rather than pop the alternator 

offline (particularly automatically, with no possibility for reset) and 

trust the battery to supply the energy for the remainder of the flight.

David Josephson

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:12 am Post subject: Alternator with no battery?

It seems that the answer presented is that 'many' alternator 

installations will continue to provide power but may be subject to being 

'stalled' by heavy loads.



Specificity would seem to be required to take this further.  The next 

question would seem to be, "what components and configuration are you 

curious about"?



So, I have (3) B&C LR3C-14 regulators controlling  (2) B&C alternators.



Another question might be "Is there a difference between a battery 

losing a cell (partial failure) and a 'broken battery cable' or (total 

failure)"?



Bill "just following along out of curiosity" Watson

On 6/4/2015 10:37 PM, donjohnston wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Sigh...  Let me try this again:



 Does anyone know what the impact of a loss of battery output (wire coming loose, solenoid failing, battery falling out of the plane, being stolen in flight by aliens, etc.) on the output of the alternator (with engine running at cruise power)?



 It would seem to me that if the load is less than the output of the alternator, it should continue to put out power as long as the engine is running.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=443059#443059





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